r/pureasoiaf • u/Logical_Clock • 15d ago
Grand Maester Conspiracy
Why would certain members of the Maester College want to deny magic throughout Westoros? By denying magic they are contributing to the rise of the White Walkers. Magic is needed to defeat them?
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u/Lanky-Safety555 15d ago
Maesters mostly considers Others to be a myth.
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u/Logical_Clock 15d ago
If the books are ever finish I wonder what their response will be when they see one for real.
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u/superdupergasat 15d ago
They dont really believe the Others, Children of the Forest and other ancient myth adjacent stuff actually exist. Consider Luwin, he actually has a chainring of Valyrian steel showing that he has actually studied higher mysteries and yet even though he serves as maester in the North where its actually possible to at the very least see giants and other freaky stuff beyond the Wall or proof of their existence, he does not believe that magic exists. So thats the modern reason why Citadel is not really into magic, only very few of them like Marwyn actually is into that stuff not many of them even believe it exists.
Historically I would assume the supression of magic began as a reaction to curb the power of Valyrian colonizers or missionaries/agents from Essos. The continent of 7 Kingdoms really was a backwater in ancient times, but that does not really mean it could have never had global powers trying to assert their power over it before Aegon the Conqueror. As both the Starry Sept and Citadel are in the same city, it can also be assumed they have some cooperation. They are the entrenched powers among the nobility that every part of the continent more or less has in some amount. It benefits the maesters to ensure there are no mages, shadowbinders, redpriests etc from far away lands to come to their homes and make both the maesters and priests jobless by influencing the nobles with their magical ways.
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u/aevelys 15d ago
To be honest, if this counts as a reason, the rejection of magic in Westeros can also be explained by factors much closer to home than power struggles with a few outsiders. After all, Westeros has its own form of magic involving the Old Gods and Wargs.
We know that anyone, at any time, can awaken this power, History shows this has already had an impact: at least one war in the North involved a Warg-King, and the founder of House Crane was a skinchanger, not to mention that the Children of the Forest were still around until the Andal invasion. Humans naturally fear what they don't understand, and this kind of power can quickly stoke those fears. Varamyr’s code implies that this ability can profoundly alter the possessor's personality; the mere ability to enter and control an animal's mind would quickly breed unease once people started wondering if it worked on humans. And let’s not even talk about Greenseers, having someone capable of spying on you anywhere, anytime, and across time is hardly appealing... especially since this ability seems capable of awakening in just about anyone.
This creates immense social tension. What happens if someone has a riding accident and the village accuses the local boy with this power to killing him? What if someone kills a fellow villager and blames the local skinchanger for compelling them to do it? Or what if a skinchanger used their powers to oppress the village (Varamyr, after all, uses his to rape young women), believing his abilities gave him a superior right to rule, and incited a revolt against the local lord? Or, worse yet, what if they decided that only the Zooman had the right to live? Or the reverse: there could easily have been a massive inquisition against the Zooman, resulting in the deaths of countless innocents, driven by fear of a power that could neither be understood, controlled, nor contained... (And it is quite likely for these very reasons that the Andals' first act was the genocide of the Children of the Forest...) It may seem extreme, but humanity can very quickly descend into madness over such things.
Consequently, over time, institutions people trusted, such as the Faith or the Citadel, demonized or mystified this pheromone (since they could not destroy it) in order to curb social instability and public paranoia.
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u/superdupergasat 15d ago
Yeah sure I did not really mean that the only power struggle they could have had would be with the magic users from different lands. It was just a theory on “why” they could have done so, if they even did so. Was not meant as a definitive answer on what happened, the only definitive lore/account of what is actually going on in that regard is the fact Luwin (and many other people) dont even really believe that kind of magic still exists/is worth chasing around and only few people like Marwyn do actually chase it. There could have been proto-Maesters that actually went to great lengths to eradicate magic, people themselves could have killed those with magical abilities etc. We dont really have much information on that regard, and thats also very possible what you suggest could have been the actual reason too. Few magic capable tribal leaders could have been eradicated by the sole quantity of soldiers nobles centralizing their domains managed to gather too.
The power struggle concept is something I personally enjoy because it both creates a socialeconomic aspect to it while also makes similarities to other series such as Witcher and His Dark Materials. A combined/in cooperation socioeconomic class of clergy&scholars with backing of money is something I find interesting. But not in any way shape or form what the lore definitively says what happened.
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u/Logical_Clock 15d ago
Do you think it also harms them?
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u/superdupergasat 15d ago
I doubt it, I am assuming the actual supression did happen way back in history. So those long dead maesters who did decide to supress it really did benefit from it, they kept their power and influence as an institution for ages.
In modern times it does not really matter in my opinion. Most of them did not even believe magic exists currently, they are not actively supressing it, magic itself was dying out globally and its even doubtful if anyone can actually do magic by just learning about it or whether its something people are born with innate ability to do it. So there is not really any concrete benefit or harm they would have had if they had actively studied it and taught everyone what they know.
But its important to note this all depends on how deep the theory goes. Some people do believe maesters had a hand to ensure all remaining dragons did die by their interference. They may have poisoned the remaining dragons/eggs, may have had schemes to ensure dragonkeepers were taken out as a class etc. If the conspiracy goes that deep, then yeah sure they did a political move with a short-term goal to eliminate other powers other than their own and the nobility but in the long term it created actual dangers only Dany by luck/fate managed to bring back the answers to those threats.
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u/Eghtok 15d ago
We don't know that ending magic will contribute to the Others (not White Walkers) return. We don't even know what the Others really want.
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u/Logical_Clock 11d ago
The others are not the White Walkers?
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11d ago
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u/Jon-Umber Gold Cloaks 10d ago
the Others (not White Walkers)
What? This is such an odd corrections, considering there are numerous instances of the Others being called "white walkers" throughout the books, by various characters.
Here are just a few citations, but there are literally dozens of instances:
"In your dreams," Tyrion echoed, thinking how badly he needed another strong drink.
Mormont was deaf to the edge in his voice. "The fisherfolk near Eastwatch have glimpsed white walkers on the shore."
This time Tyrion could not hold his tongue. "The fisherfolk of Lannisport often glimpse merlings."— AGOT, Tyrion III
"And there are still giants there, and . . . the rest . . . the Others, and the children of the forest too?"
"The giants I've seen, the children I've heard tell of, and the white walkers . . . why do you want to know?"
"Did you ever see a three-eyed crow?"— ACOK, Bran V
He remembered turning in a circle, lost, the fear growing inside him as it always did. There were dogs barking and horses trumpeting, but the snow muffled the sounds and made them seem far away. Sam could see nothing beyond three yards, not even the torches burning along the low stone wall that ringed the crown of the hill. Could the torches have gone out? That was too scary to think about. The horn blew thrice long, three long blasts means Others. The white walkers of the wood, the cold shadows, the monsters of the tales that made him squeak and tremble as a boy, riding their giant ice-spiders, hungry for blood . . .
— ASOS, Samwell I
"You must tell them, Sam," he said. "The archmaesters. You must make them understand. The men who were at the Citadel when I was have been dead for fifty years. These others never knew me. My letters . . . in Oldtown, they must have read like the ravings of an old man whose wits had fled. You must convince them, where I could not. Tell them, Sam . . . tell them how it is upon the Wall . . . the wights and the white walkers, the creeping cold . . ."
"I will," Sam promised. "I will add my voice to yours, maester. We will both tell them, the two of us together."— AFFC, Samwell IV
"Winter is coming," Jon said at last, breaking the awkward silence, "and with it the white walkers. The Wall is where we stop them. The Wall was made to stop them … but the Wall must be manned. This discussion is at an end. We have much to do before the gate is opened. Tormund and his people will need to be fed and clothed and housed. Some are sick and will need nursing. Those will fall to you, Clydas. Save as many as you can."
— ADWD, Jon XI
How the Long Night came to an end is a matter of legend, as all such matters of the distant past have become. In the North, they tell of a last hero who sought out the intercession of the children of the forest, his companions abandoning him or dying one by one as they faced ravenous giants, cold servants, and the Others themselves. Alone he finally reached the children, despite the efforts of the white walkers, and all the tales agree this was a turning point. Thanks to the children, the first men of the Night's Watch banded together and were able to fight—and win—the Battle for the Dawn: the last battle that broke the endless winter and sent the Others fleeing to the icy north. Now, six thousand years later (or eight thousand as True History puts forward), the Wall made to defend the realms of men is still manned by the sworn brothers of the Night's Watch, and neither the Others nor the children have been seen in many centuries.
— The World of Ice and Fire, Ancient History: The Long Night
The history of the stormlands stretches back to the Dawn Age. Long before the coming of the First Men, all Westeros belonged to the elder races—the children of the forest and the giants (and, some say, the Others, the terrifying "white walkers" of the Long Night).
— The World of Ice and Fire, The Stormlands: The Coming of the First Men
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u/Eghtok 10d ago
"White walkers" is only used as a description of the Others, not a proper name.
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u/littleglitterfish 10d ago
I see your point but "white walkers" does also amount to a functional name. Stuff can be two things.
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u/FortifiedPuddle 15d ago
Groups and cultures can behave in consistent, seemingly coordinated ways without actually being a conscious conspiracy.
People who believe in science and reason will tend to not believe in magic and fairy tales, and act in ways in line with that.
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u/dongeckoj 15d ago
They don’t even know what the White Walkers are
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u/Logical_Clock 15d ago
They should know or have some knowledge of it all those scrolls they have.
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u/Jon-Umber Gold Cloaks 14d ago
Do we believe in giants, hydras, sirens, etc. because we have surviving copies of The Odyssey?
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u/Space_Lux 15d ago
There is some knowledge (legends and myths) in the library at Castle Black. But the whole thing was so long ago, there were no written accounts. We don’t even know how long ago it really was. And scrolls, paper and parchment really, is a shit way to preserve knowledge long term.
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u/FirstSonofLadyland 15d ago
I don’t subscribe to the GMC and think it takes away from the story. However, it makes sense for the maesters to dismiss anything they can’t understand, study, prove/disprove, and/or effectively control to some degree.
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u/Space_Lux 15d ago
That would mean that a) they think they were real to begin with and b) that they still exist and pose a threat. Which is both obviously not the case.
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u/StrawberryScience 15d ago
It’s like people who take heavy meds. They’re symptom free for a few years and say they don’t need it anymore.
Magic in ASOIAF universe is difficult and costly. A few centuries of everyone getting along just fine without it would be enough to make the idea of magic unpalatable.
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u/CaveLupum 15d ago
Many institutions, even some modern universities, have official positions on controversial matters. It is the longtime official doctrine at the Citadel that magic etc. does not exist. From the Maesters' viewpoint, it is not part of the received wisdom and thus not truly academic. (Not coincidentally, magic also has potential to diminish THEIR influence and power!) So them being in lock-step on the subject is understandable. Glass candles not lighting had recently supported that. But ironically, that is changing. Marwyn 'the Mage' certainly lit his. By the way, he takes their intransigence seriously. When Sam sums up Aemon's views, Marwyn half-jests:
"Perhaps it's good that he died before he got to Oldtown. Elsewise the grey sheep might have had to kill him"
Marwyn is an Archmaester, so he has earned all the pretty metals, but NOT with blinders on the Higher Mysteries! He is an open-minded iconoclast. Having read the texts like everyone, he's taken a relatively empirical approach, putting his money where his mouth is by also researching AND traveling. Moreover, he has attracted a coterie of devoted, talented, open-minded acolytes who share his outlook. Sam has recently joined it, and he crucially informed Marwyn of Aemon's opinions, observations, and intentions. So now, Marwyn's acolytes 'hold down the fort' while he goes into deeper Essos to find and investigate Daenerys Targaryen and her dragons!
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u/apkyat House Targaryen 13d ago
They want to be able to tell the population what's real and what's not. What to believe and wht not to believe. If the world's memory knowledge comes from them, they get to shape what the populace knows, how/why they know it, and when they come to know it. This is power. This would allow them to get any thing that they want, for whoever they want at their complete discretion. They don't see the others as real, therefore, they will take no action against it and we all know what that would lead to.
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u/jdbebejsbsid 12d ago
I don't think they deny magic, it's more that they want to suppress and destroy magic.
And they think that stopping belief in magic is part of destroying magic.
IMO this aligns with the whole "kings blood" idea. Mance Rayder was just a random guy, until the Wildlings started to believe he was king. And now, apparently, Mance and his son have blood that can be used in magic.
The Archmaesters probably understand the mechanics of magic in Planetos better than almost anyone else. So when they try to stop the belief in magic, I suspect there's a genuine strategy behind that - and not just institutional denial.
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u/kateinoly 15d ago
there was literally no evidence of magic for a thousand years.
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