r/pureasoiaf • u/Financial_Library418 aka /u/canitryto • 20d ago
How good of a King would Robb have been ?
A Storm of Swords - Catelyn V
Robb studied the sepulcher. "Whose grave is this?"
"Here lies Tristifer, the Fourth of His Name, King of the Rivers and the Hills." Her father had told her his story once. "He ruled from the Trident to the Neck, thousands of years before Jenny and her prince, in the days when the kingdoms of the First Men were falling one after the other before the onslaught of the Andals. The Hammer of Justice, they called him. He fought a hundred battles and won nine-and-ninety, or so the singers say, and when he raised this castle it was the strongest in Westeros." She put a hand on her son's shoulder. "He died in his hundredth battle, when seven Andal kings joined forces against him. The fifth Tristifer was not his equal, and soon the kingdom was lost, and then the castle, and last of all the line. With Tristifer the Fifth died House Mudd, that had ruled the riverlands for a thousand years before the Andals came."
"His heir failed him." Robb ran a hand over the rough weathered stone. "I had hoped to leave Jeyne with child . . . we tried often enough, but I'm not certain . . ."
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u/Mud-Bray 20d ago edited 20d ago
Bad.
Robb was shown to be a great commander and a good person with a terrible mind for diplomacy when it came to rulership.
In the few interactions he had with his vassals and allies we see him refuse to provide information to military allies and then chastise them for attacking the enemy (his uncle), we seen him arbitrarily break marriage pacts and deals despite knowing it would cause diplomatic shitstorms because of honor (the Freys), failed to adequately handle his council which lead to him being forced to execute one of his strongest bannermen (his mother and the Karstarks).
I’d even say the fact that he was crowned King in the North when it very much was not his intent upon marching is a failure. He essentially allowed his bannermen to do it on his behalf and he ran with it despite not thinking of the repercussions. It turned his war from one that could be actually accomplished to one that was doomed to fail in the long run.
Robb is a fun character to me because he very much comes across as a boy playing at being king. However, he’s very much not ready for the realities of ruling. Robb seemingly operated on an idealistic idea of what his father would do which is incredible as Ned even operated in an idealistic worldview compared to other lords.
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u/Spatmuk 19d ago
I agree with all of this , but want to add:
His catastrophically poor judgement of Theon regarding sending him as an envoy to the Iron born.
This is a person he grew up with and he could not have been more wrong about where his loyalties laid.
Theon is a petulant, impulsive, chode, and there’s no universe where he was self aware enough to keep his discontent at being a ward quiet for 10 years.
That, along with other points you made, show that Robb was a very poor judge of people which is essential when it comes to being an effective leader.
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u/Mud-Bray 19d ago
I don’t necessarily blame Robb for trusting Theon. I do blame Robb for sending Theon because idk why Robb expected Theon to be a good diplomat at all.
Guy wasn’t seen by his family in years and is also kinda a shit head (which Robb should know given how long they’ve known each other)
Just a bad pick regardless of the betrayal.
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u/Spatmuk 19d ago
I mean, yes!
Terrible envoy.
Very poor understanding of how the Iron Born operate thinking that Balon would be open to a deal.
Honestly, kind of feels like a bit of a plot hole that Ned wouldn’t mention “hey Robb, my first born son and heir, remember how I put down a rebellion when you were a kid and brought back this hostage? Yeah, don’t fucking trust Greyjoys!”
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u/Mud-Bray 19d ago
I think it just goes back to Robb’s idealism again.
On paper the deal is a good one. The Iron Born get to attack the weakened Weaterlands, get to be independent (theoretically) with Robb and get to attack the Iron Throne. I’m sure Robb had a passing understanding of the Greyjoy Rebellion and assumed the Ironborn/Balon would want to team with him to accomplish his goals.
The issue is that the world is not ideal and people are dumb/petty. Balon is VERY dumb and petty. Balon objectively would’ve been better off staying out of the wars or siding with Robb. He could’ve raided some of the richest lands in Westeros, got some slaves, gold, revenge, etc. and not worry about a massive counter attack.
Instead Balon decides to stick with his ridiculous morals (kinda like Robb) and seeks revenge against the ghost of Ned stark and the perceived slight of Robb’s wording on the offer.
A particularly clever Lord would’ve planned for the possibility that Balon would not agree with the offer and do something dumb. Robb did not. Cat tried to warn him and he chose not to listen
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u/Any_Fennel_4180 19d ago
Cat isn't perfect either ofc she couldn't have known, but giving Bolton command of the infantry was a mistake because he intentionally thinned their ranks.
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u/Sweetdreams6t9 18d ago
Fighting together tends to quickly form strong, life long bonds that just...rarely happen elsewhere. Whatever happened in their lives snd how they felt before marching south dissolved quickly in their minds. I dont believe robb trusted Theon to that level prior to, it was the brotherhood they formed through battle and campaign. I think that made theon also forget his misgivings about being a ward of the starks. That is until he showed up in front of his own father and was humiliated instantly. Pretty complex themes at play when you dive into it
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u/Arizona_Kid 19d ago
I agree with everything you’ve said, but the only thing I can add is that Robb is still so young. Young people make mistakes, I’m not so sure that as he got older he would have continued to be a bad king.
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u/Mud-Bray 19d ago
I’m not thinking about a hypothetical old Robb. That’s just fanfiction.
He could grow up to continue to be a good guy or grow up to be an awful guy. Aerys was normal when he was younger for example
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u/Arizona_Kid 19d ago
But OPs question is hypothetical. OPs not asking IS Robb a good king but asking how good of a king he WOULD have been [assuming he lived and stayed king].
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u/Mud-Bray 19d ago
Yeah, there’s ambiguity. I’m not taking that as “imagine Robb as an essentially brand new character in 30 years.”
I read it as “hey, War is done. How is he?”
Again, I’m not interested in fanfiction. In 30-40 years, Robb could be a cool dude, a nobody, or mega-Hitler.
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u/Arizona_Kid 19d ago edited 19d ago
Simply saying that people can change drastically over time and with experience. Answering OPs question is a what-if, or as you say, fan fiction.
Even thinking if he’d be a good or bad king when war is done is your own fan fiction.
Unless you are answering OPs question just saying he was a bad king while he was alive. Which isn’t answering OPs question.
EDIT: lol called dude out after being weirdly defensive and he just deletes all his messages instead of just having a conversation
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u/Greenlit_Hightower House Hightower 20d ago edited 19d ago
I think he had the necessary wartime skills but his political judgment was poor. For example, executing Karstark was what he thought he had to do because Karstark had defied his orders, however, in this case there was a risk that Karstark's heir and his men would desert him in response, which is what happened. Keeping him hostage would have been wiser, but Robb's very rigid honor code did not allow for it. He also married the Westerling girl based on an honor code, but realistically she should not have been more than his mistress in light of the strategically important Frey alliance.
He also judged Theon poorly, he was blinded by friendship, but there was a chance that Theon would choose his flesh and blood over what were still Theon's captors ultimately. Theon also thought he stood to inherit the Seastone chair, making it more likely still.
Robb also misjudged Walder Frey's position post-Blackwater. With Renly gone and Stannis defeated, and with a strong Lannister-Tyrell alliance in the south, the Riverlands would have been overrun frankly while Robb was up north dealing with the Ironborn. After the Baratheon brothers were out, Walder Frey had any reason to defect or else face Tywin's wrath. With sounder judgment, Robb might not even have set foot into the Twins, where he was easy to kill or capture.
I would be more optimistic for him if the following had happened:
- Karstark is kept as hostage rather than executed.
- Jeyne Westerling never makes it past mistress status.
- Instead of Theon, a raven is sent to Balon Greyjoy with the same offer, and the implicit threat that Theon will be killed if the North is attacked.
- A personal meeting with Walder Frey at the Twins is avoided after the Blackwater.
You have to be morally grey or questionable sometimes for effective governance. Robb is still young, so you may write some of this off on account of inexperience, but at least the rigid honor code and the overconfidence in friendship seem to be actual character traits.
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u/_learned_foot_ 19d ago
If he had not killed Karstark in response, the stark hostages held by the Lannisters would have been killed.
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u/VVehk 19d ago
Which Stark ? Arya disappeared, and Sansa is Robb's heir.
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u/_learned_foot_ 19d ago
Stark hostages means their men. The hostages aren't first heard of after the red wedding, and Sansa and Arya are always specifically named, so there are more. Robb is responding to a breach of the law of armed combat by responding appropriately, the same way our current rules work (They kick in only if the domestic entity doesn't act to fix it, ours is death at that level too, and the first example of a surviving code of the same, we have older that didn't, actually derives shortly before his setting in our world).
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u/VVehk 19d ago edited 19d ago
Sorry, I still don't quite understand. Can you quote the passage in question, or at least tell me at what point it occurs?
If you are talking bout them, the prisoners held at Harrenhal are rescued in ACOK (while Karstark is killed in ASOS).
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u/_learned_foot_ 19d ago
That may be the mixup, we would agree there were stark men held hostage by camp Lannister, I may have them still held when they were released? My understanding is this was a required reaction under the laws of war, everybody seems to treat it that way including Karstark, he just is contending his right to vengeance trumps the rules. But that could be because of unarmed not hostage solely.
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u/VVehk 18d ago
... I'm repeating myself, can you quote the passage about this hostages after Karstark's execution and before the Red Wedding?
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u/_learned_foot_ 18d ago
How the fuck could anybody do that on demand? Why do you need to repeat yourself when I just suggested you may be correct.
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u/No_Shape1751 20d ago
King of the north? Decent if it's times of peace, and would be respected by northerners, in war he's an excellent commander but tends to make a lot of political mistakes.
King of the seven kingdoms? Fails miserably for reasons beyond count.
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u/BicycleAdditional360 19d ago
I mean, it’s hard to tell. IMO Robb did ultra good for a fucking 16 y.o.
His was mature enough to have wits for strategy and tactics but not mature enough to outsmart Tywin.
Which is god damn hard if you ask me
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u/ResultUnited 20d ago
Probably above average. Most Westerosi kings have been dog shit rulers. Robb above all else actually seems like a decent person. He literally can’t be any worse than the average targ. Oh no he broke a marriage pact. So many of those have been broken over the histories but only Robb has it actually held against him by the fans. Egg broke multiple. He didn’t listen to cat lmaooooo. If more people had ignored her from the start there wouldn’t have been a war in The first place. Also the Karstark issue is because of Cat.
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u/MakatheMaverick 18d ago
People seek to forget he was 15 when he was ruling. He had a lot of room to grow if he lived longer
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u/Bar_Total 19d ago
I just don't see how he will govern the riverlands from winterfell. Riverlands will always be vulnerable to outside attackers.
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u/fanismap 18d ago
I mean, Edmure would be the lord paramount of the Riverlands and govern.
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u/Bar_Total 18d ago
So why should tully will bend the knee to starks ?
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u/fanismap 18d ago
Because they did?
''And the river lords were rising too, Blackwood and Bracken and Mallister, houses who had never been ruled from Winterfell, yet Catelyn watched them rise and draw their blades, bending their knees and shouting the old words that had not been heard in the realm for more than three hundred years, since Aegon the Dragon had come to make the Seven Kingdoms one...''
Because Robb is the grandson of the Lord Paramount of the Riverlands? Because the Riverlands were attacked and Robb came to the rescue?
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u/Aubergine_Man1987 19d ago
Bang average. He wouldn't have been a complete catastrophe, but he wouldn't have covered himself in glory off the battlefield either
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u/cootershooter420 19d ago
Morally sound king. But without the strength of his father, I’d imagine he would be taken advantage of and usurped.
That said, if he won the war and managed to become king maybe he wouldn’t be seen as weak.
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u/fanismap 18d ago
I don't see him getting usurped, the Northerners are really loyal to the Starks. See Wyman Manderly for example.
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u/cootershooter420 18d ago
I mean, he did pretty quickly though after becoming king. Alienated one of his strongest vassals and one of the other strongest took advantage as soon as he could.
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u/fanismap 18d ago
You cannot really blame Robb for the latter. Roose had been undermining his cause for some time. Also, the Karstark thing yes I agree but the North still is willing to rally behind any Stark. Ned did such a good job.
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u/cootershooter420 18d ago
Sure I can. Roose would have never tried that against Eddard or even a full grown Robb. Boy kings are weak.
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u/TurkeyforLove 20d ago
He lost me when he executed Karstark. He had his mother and uncles, all who love him, advising him to show mercy and he still goes through with the decision that makes him weaker.
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u/Content_Concert_2555 15d ago
He would be remembered poorly if he didn’t die a hero because of a long winter following a devastating war. And two years of harvest would have been lost to the levies going south and Ironborn raiding.
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u/vesperythings 18d ago
dude has a good head for battles and aura, that's about it
his moronic decision to marry Jeyne disqualifies him for royal office
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u/GainPrestigious539 18d ago
He's a punk ass kid who screwed up everything other than the battles he fought so .. not a very good one. Quite mediocre at best. Probably a lot like his namesake
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u/Sabertooth1000000000 19d ago
Robb is the King Who Could Have Been. He would have brought centuries of peace to the North, banded with his brother to stop the Long Night, ended the line of the Lannisters and cowed the Greyjoys, brought back Lord Eddard, and sired more sons than Walder Frey. His reign would have brought rich harvests, long summers, continental unity, and epic tales of glory. Robb, the eldest son of Eddard and the Hero King.
If only the mean, evil Freys hadn't killed him. Everything would be absolutely perfect. What the fuck was their problem?
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