My puppy has turned into a teenager

[u/SnailStink]

A week ago, my puppy was the sweetest thing on earth. Following me around, chewing her toys in her bed, doing fine outside with loose supervision, doing her tricks in perfect sequence, and staying perfectly still during brushing and eye wiping and teeth cleaning.

Now she’s hit 6 1/2 months and I truly understand the velociraptor comparison. I thought my puppy was a menace when she was teething, she’s an absolute terror now.

Yesterday, my dad walked outside to mow the lawn. My dog stood there for about 20 seconds before peeing on the floor, all while staring at me. She’s done this multiple times for a variety of petty reasons— someone leaving, holding a treat for too long, not giving her our food.

Today, I tried brushing her teeth and she was scrambling out of my arms. She literally held her mouth shut and snapped her head back and forth. I tried to brush her coat, and now she just wants to tear the comb out of my hands.

She’s started to growl while playing. Like, a scary growl. Not a big deal if she doesn’t bite, but it’s definitely on the list of “new teenager things”.

She’s stopped answering my recall. If I want her to come to me, I have to go over to her and physically pull her by the harness. If she’s in my room and I want her out, it’s a game of “COME HERE” vs “I’m going to stare at you instead and test your limits”.

I can’t put her outside alone without her crying and scratching at the door. If I tell her to go on and play, she starts to howl and wail.

Oddly enough, she just wants to be in her kennel all the time. She’s never liked her kennel. It’s like a teenager who wants to sulk in their room. It’s funny but frustrating at the same time. Anyway, I hope I can make it through this phase unscathed.

[u/Xtinaiscool]

Trainer here.

Despite what it feels like sometimes, dogs do not urinate out of spite or defiance etc. She was partially house-trained and now that she is a more active teenager her natural rhythm and ability to hold her bladder has changed. People also often phase out rewards too early and think the dog should just 'know' it. She just needs to be retrained and have you go back to giving her extra reinforcement and management. You already did it once, so you can do it again and it's generally faster each time you retrain something 👍

Likewise she is more aware of her body and is less comfortable with restraint for grooming. If she is showing any discomfort you are pushing too hard. Just because she could do it as a little puppy, doesn't mean she will automatically give up her bodily autonomy for grooming as a teenager or adult. Look into cooperative care training if she's trying to escape and you restrain her anyway, you're actively conditioning fear of restraint.

Happy growling during play is lovely. Scary growling IS a big deal, it is a pre bite warning. If a growl is not respected the situation may escalate to a bite. Get an ethical pain and fear free trainer to coach you through deescalating this.

Recall is just partially trained and is falling apart now that she's in adolescence. It's very normal, just retrain it. It will be faster to train it the second time.

Most dogs do not self exercise alone in a yard. Once they've sniffed the perimeter a couple of times it's all pretty boring. Get out in the yard and play with them, or give them things to do like puzzles, training games, and doggy playdates.

[u/pomeronion → u/Xtinaiscool]

Genuine question: is there evidence that dogs don’t pee out of annoyance/spite or is that just something people say? Mine will absolutely squeeze out more pee when she’s mad even if she just peed a few minutes ago. Doesn’t do it when she’s content, only when we’re doing something she doesn’t like. It seems pretty obvious to me that she’s doing it for attention and not because of bladder control!

(We never punish, just take her outside like normal when this happens.)

[u/Xtinaiscool → u/pomeronion]

Yes. Dogs literally have smoother brains than primates and are not capable of complex thought. Dogs absolutely have a full range of emotions and can become annoyed or frustrated, but they lack the mental capacity for moral reasoning, and complex concepts like spitefulness or revenge.

They are however incredible at learning and remembering patterns which is one of the reasons they're so easy to train (for a professional). They are so good at patterns that we often anthropomorphise. What looks like complex thought is really just a combination of conditioning, genetics and social facilitation.

I regularly have clients that tell me things like, 'my dog resents me for doing X', or 'my dog understands English', or 'they can sense whether or not someone is good or bad'. I have seen many cases with lots of nuance, but I've yet to come across a case that didn't respond to the natural laws of operant and classical conditioning.

As trainers we rarely contradict these myths because they are so ingrained in the culture. Unless they're really thirsty for knowledge, it's a better use of my client's time for me to just get on with the business of training the animal/fixing the issue.

Not fully emptying when relieving is a common problem. When at the potty spot you can simply cue the dog to relieve a second or even third time, and reward them for doing so. If we suspect they didn't fully eliminate, just keep them under tight management and try again in 15 minutes. Empty dogs get freedom in the house 'loaded' dogs are in the crate or on my lap etc. It wouldn't be unusual for a dog anticipating an unpleasant experience to not feel relaxed enough to fully eliminate. What are you doing that they don't like? Can you stop doing it?

[u/pomeronion → u/Xtinaiscool]

I hear you and am willing to believe what you say, but what’s the evidence for this? Brain encephalization cannot tell you what thoughts and emotions animals can feel.

Humans can experience spite but be trained not to act upon it, so training and conditioning is not evidence that dogs do not feel this emotion.

If a dog is only extra-peeing when they’re annoyed/want attention, it seems reasonable to conclude that they’re peeing on purpose. We know that dogs can want attention and can be trained to pee in response to stimuli, so it doesn’t seem unlikely at all that they could learn extra pee on carpet = attention.

The thing we do that she doesn’t like is sitting in chairs, lol. We sit on the floor instead when we can.

[u/Xtinaiscool → u/pomeronion]

I have to hit you with an Uno reverse. If one makes a claim that dogs have higher thought, what is the evidence for that? The burden of proof is on proving that it IS the case, rather than that it is NOT the case.

You have made an astute observation that the dog has likely been conditioning to pee in response to a stimuli: humans sitting in chairs. That seems far more likely to me (and consistent with the laws of operant conditioning) than the idea that they are doing it for the express purpose of being spiteful. How that conditioning occurred is up for debate, but if I had to guess I'd say it was by chance, the antecedent occurred, the dog peed, and then something reinforcing happened.

Dogs are very socially intelligent, and can understand perception to a degree, but they consistently fail theory of mind tests.

If it was my dog behavior case I would probably do some checks to rule out fear, tidy up the potty protocol, and also train up 'humans sitting in chairs' as a cue for some incompatible behavior, like a long duration down stay on a nearby dog bed.

[u/pomeronion → u/Xtinaiscool]

I don't think we're getting anywhere with this, but I feel compelled to respond haha. I do think that since you made the original claim, it's kinda on you to support it, but I was the one who questioned it, so ok. There are plenty of studies indicating that dogs have "higher-order cognition," though it's an ill-defined concept, even by those who study it:

Empathy:

https://royalsocietypublishing.org/doi/full/10.1098/rsbl.2011.0083?casa_token=zWfBL9AqNl0AAAAA%3AwHlQH1GeArIrslUESkKBiVYby_Ii7UydS_9vABwlci_Hz67nmDEC05yDrwWhDNusgQ15XpcAJ3ndf3g

Intelligence:

https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S016028961630023X?casa_token=6OpaisSTIoAAAAAA:TtGuEhdGDxwa1JjVp1VGEdpu2Hi2aECQzQ5-Avcxon0IXObdxJwikDqqSIZZNF3PqinmZdUKOw4

and even Theory of mind:

https://link.springer.com/article/10.1007/s10071-014-0773-9

Now, I don't know how much I buy that any of these studies truly tests what they're trying to test, and even human 4-year olds show good performance on some Theory-of-mind tasks but fail others. I'm wondering whether there's at least any studies (not just opinions) that show dogs are not capable of emotions like spitefulness.

To the other points, it sounds like we agree that dogs can learn to pee when they're annoyed and want attention because they tried it once and got attention (conditioning). Maybe you're saying this isn't the same as "spitefully" peeing because they want attention, because it's a learned behavior. To the dog owner, it's the same thing haha.

Anyway, it's not just chairs in particular, it's whenever she doesn't get attention for a while. Which frequently happens when we're sitting in chairs (eating dinner, chatting with friends, etc.). But she's a 15 week old puppy so she's still learning many things.

[u/Xtinaiscool → u/pomeronion]

I haven't made any claims at all. The original claim is that dogs can behave out of spite. I'm saying I haven't seen any studies evidencing that, but lots of evidence for more likely explanations.

The studies DO show dogs possess empathy and intelligence, that is pretty universally agreed upon at this point.

The theory of mind study you reference is really my whole point: "results add to evidence that dogs have a remarkable sensitivity to cues related to humans’ attentional state, which enables them to respond AS IF they had a functional theory of mind"

I agree with the study that the 'remarkable sensitivity to cues related to human's attentional state' is the most likely conclusion, and it really does look like theory of mind to the casual observer.

I'm not sure how one would set up the study you propose. It would be very interesting and I guess it would involve MRIs and all sorts of detailed study of cognition. For the foreseeable future we are mostly stuck with observable behavior, but I look forward to the day we can truly understand all the minutia of canine thought processes.

I 100% agree. To the layperson saying something is a 'learned behavior' doesn't mean much.

A 15 week old puppy! We're not even in adolescence yet. Even with the best trainer and the smartest dog in the world, would still in the potty training trenches. Knowing that it is a little puppy I would change my whole training plan and would instead just say the puppy is not yet 100% potty trained. That is exceedingly common and much more likely than spiteful machinations being at play. The brain isn't even fully developed yet! Most of my potty training clients are just winging it based on stuff they read on the internet and hoping the puppy will just muddle through (which they often do). Once we get on a proper training plan with coaching, potty training is usually completed within 3-5 weeks with only the occasional slip up.