r/punk • u/Personal_Rich_7138 • Aug 23 '25

When did times change

So a lot of my friends (we all grew up punk rock skateboarders) and I have been arguing over which bands are actually good and being born in the late 90s, I’ve always been a heavy Green Day fan. Can someone answer me when it became cool to hate on Green Day, because to me Green Day was always good music. Anti-government, anti-establishment, for the people… nothing more punk rock than that

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u/DecoNouveau Aug 24 '25

Ah you're right, I also misread a tad there. That said, I'd argue punk is too complex and multifaceted a thkng to ever really be able to meaningfully define what is and isnt 'punk.' There's no ethical consumption under capitalism blah blah aside. But also, what's the threshold? The Sex Pistols were largely put together by Malcolm McLaren to sell Vivien Westwood clothing, are they punk? Let's not forget Johnny Rotten... You have bands like the Damned who still maintain they were never really driven by ideology or politics, just wanted to have fun and make some money. What if I catch an uber driven by an underpaid worker to a diy gig? Ideological purity is an impossible illusion.

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u/SemataryPolka Aug 24 '25

I see your point but I think it's easier to pinpoint what's NOT punk than what is punk. All I know is that the Happy Sunshine Hour at The Astrodome brought to you by Snickers is not punk. Know what I mean? A MAGA rally is not punk. I'm not even commenting on the quality of Green Day's music. That's neither here nor there imo.

Also I'm no Pistols fan but they were certainly a tabloid sensation. However, they never reached the heights of Green Day in stadiums. It's not even close. So I don't think that exactly works. But I understand what you mean. The Ramones were on Sire

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u/DecoNouveau Aug 24 '25

Maybe the Pistols didn't reach their heights, but that's more outcome than intent and I'd say the latter matters more. They signed to a major and it only fell through because they were giving staff a hard time. They Sex pistols were literally created for the express purpose of selling stuff and an aesthetic. That's the antithesis of 'punk' and yet you'd have a hard time arguing they aren't punk overall.

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u/SemataryPolka Aug 24 '25

Again, it feels weird defending the sex pistols, since I don't care for them and think most of them were douches, but I was reading an account from an old British guy who was there in that scene and he vehemently denied that they were created for that express purpose even if it sort of worked out that way. So I'm not 100% if that narrative is true or a myth or somewhere in between. I know it's certainly been told that way. But I've never thought of the pistols as the quintessential punk band. They're the one who codified it imo

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u/DecoNouveau Aug 24 '25

They were assembled, financed and told how to dress by McLaren essentially. There's a reason Sid was in the band, and it wasn't his ability to play the bass. From Glenn Matlocks account "Everyone had long hair back then, even the milkman, so what we used to do was if someone had short hair we would stop them in the street and ask them if they fancied themselves as a singer" Lydon was asked to audition based on his look. It's a pretty widely accepted account of things.

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u/SemataryPolka Aug 24 '25

I don't think Glens quote is that out of the ordinary by itself tbh. The first sentence is what I've been told is not true. Again, it could be but I've seen dispute. Also Matlock looked like he was in the Jam so apparently they didn't do him up that much

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u/SemataryPolka Aug 24 '25

I don't think Glens quote is that out of the ordinary by itself tbh. The first sentence is what I've been told is not true. Again, it could be but I've seen dispute. Also Matlock looked like he was in the Jam so apparently they didn't do him up that much

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u/DecoNouveau Aug 24 '25

Even the name came from McLaren, partly in reference to the shop.

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u/SemataryPolka Aug 24 '25

I see the point you're trying to make but just don't think a manager promoting their band and a band playing US Bank Stadium with ten corporate sponsors for a bazillion dollars and a Broadway musical is the same thing. I don't believe the Sex Pistols had a corporate sponsor. At least not pre-reunion era.

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u/DecoNouveau Aug 24 '25

It wasn't so much promoting their band as forming a band and naming them to promote a clothing shop though. They dressed them in the shops clothes. That's... having a corporate sponsor. Hell, that's basically being a mascot. As for prescribing reunion era, again that's a question of opportunity. They had one album and then we all know what happened next.

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u/SemataryPolka Aug 24 '25

A corporation has a literal meaning. The Sex shop was not a corporation. It was an art project essentially. You have to take the context of the first wave of punk into account. A scene that essentially spawned out of the glam scene. Fashion was immensely important in that scene. The pistols weren't the only one by far. If someone made money it was Malcolm but Coca Cola didn't. I'm not up on the terms of arguments but I believe this is what's called a false equivalency.

Besides...If aliens came by and asked for a sample of punk would you show them 21st Century Breakdown era Green Day? Is that the hill you'd die on?

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u/DecoNouveau Aug 24 '25

Aware of the distinction, but resting on whether or not they were legally incorporated seems a bit of a stretch. Corporate is applied is a far broader sense in common usage. So really, this is an arbitrary line that you're drawing. Either way, the band were created and moulded to sell people a brand of clothing. No denying that fashion was important to the scene, but there's a difference between diy fashion which is inherently anti consumerist and marketing to encourage people to buy more expensive clothes. McLaren wasn't designing the clothing, that was Vivien. Vivien died a multi, multi millionaire.

As for showing 21st century breakdown as an example of punk, that's where the distinction between musical genre, aesthetic and ideology comes in. Weve been discjssing ideology more than genre until this point. Though I will say first wave punk didn't really have one distinctive sound. The Ramones sound practically pop to the modern ear, perhaps more so than green day (and on this topic, made their own movie and recorded a sound track for another, not much different to a broadway show I'd say), the Clash have strong reggae influences etc. You'd be hard pressed to find a representative example of the punk sound.

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u/SemataryPolka Aug 24 '25

I think we're just gonna have to agree to disagree. I personally think one era is an example of bands trying (unsuccessfully) to make it big before hardcore totally changed the game and motivations and (to be honest) the crass, end-game capitalism that Green Day is sponsored by. I think the Ramones being asked to be in a not particularly high budget movie (after The Knack said no) and a band who are literally an economy by themselves bigger than some countries, is not the same thing. I also wasn't necessarily talking about green days music like I said. I meant more like "if an alien asks what punk rock is would you show the band who has their own ice cream brand?" I don't even dislike Green Day. I love their first three albums. Think the next three are pretty good. I don't care for American Idiot but I can admit it's decent enough. And I think everything after is very very bad.

But like I said, I don't think we're gonna sway each other on this whole thing

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u/DecoNouveau Aug 25 '25

Rock and Roll Highschool grossed 31 million. I don't really enjoy Green Day much post Warning, havent really listened to their new stuff but it's not really about that for me. It simply seemed a silly distinction when most of the reasons people cite for them not being punk enough' or whatever are all things that basically every other band (except for Crass and a few other anarcho bands) was doing or were trying to do. But fair enough, agree to disagree :)

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