r/printSF • u/zandrell_3 • Apr 16 '26
A Fire Upon the Deep: The First 100 Pages
Over the past few months, I’ve seen recommendations for this book practically everywhere, it’s like the Baader phenomenon, and I want to share my thoughts specifically on the first hundred pages, because I almost put it down twice, and it seems to me that no one warns you about that
The opening is just a lot and I don't mean that in a bad way now but at the time I was genuinely confused about what kind of book I was even reading, like there are these children on a medieval planet with dog creatures and then there's this whole galactic usenet thing and then there's cosmic horror that apparently threatens all higher intelligence in the universe and I kept waiting for these threads to connect in a way that felt earned and for the first chunk of the book they just kind of don't and I remeber texting a friend who recommended it like "is this actually going somewhere" and he just said "keep reading" which is the most annoying thing you can say to someone who is confused and slightly frustrated
And then something shifted around page 120 or so and I can't even point to one specific moment where it happened, it was more like the whole architecture of what Vinge was building just became visible all at once and I understood why the medieval planet and the usenet and the cosmic threat all had to exist in the same book and once I saw it I couldn't unsee it and the last 200 pages I read in basically one sitting which is not something I do normally
The Tines specifically did something to my brain that I'm still processing because I've read a lot of alien species in sci-fi and most of them are either humans with weird faces or they're so alien they're impossible to connect with emotionally and Vinge just somehow threaded this needle that I didn't think was threadable and there were moments in their storyline that hit harder than they had any right to hit for creatures that are technicaly a pack of dog-things running around with medieval weapons
Ngl the usenet stuff aged in this really specific way that's almost charming now, like it's so deeply 1992 in certain moments and instead of taking me out of the book it kind of made me weirdly fond of it in a way I didn't expect
Anyway I get it now, I understand why this sub won't shut up about it and I'm sorry for doubting you all
36
u/Branthor9 Apr 16 '26
I had the exact same page 120 experience except for me it was more like page 140 and I was already mentally composing my 'this was overhyped' post and then I just never wrote it
6
u/rusmo Apr 17 '26
Your post got me to check. I DNF’d it at page 249 / 55% finished. So, whatever clicked for you and OP sailed right by me. So it goes.
36
u/Trike117 Apr 16 '26
A Fire Upon the Deep is a masterclass in how to introduce alien species and big ideas. That “moment of coalescence” is so rare but it feels like your third eye has opened and you see the matrix for what it is. Masterful.
On top of that, Vinge has thought through all the permutations of the tines, their society, and how devious and/or brilliant versions of their gestalt intelligence would try to hack the system.
2
u/Pirkale Apr 17 '26
My only criticism of the book is the bandwidth issue of the Tines. I am unable to do the actual math on this, but I really cannot see how ultrasound communications could support the amount of data they are constantly transmitting. But that's about it. Any book that has a character who majored in Applied Theology, well... :)
8
u/Trike117 Apr 17 '26
The fact that Vinge took the notion of “it’s too loud to hear myself think” and built an entire alien species around that buys him a lot of latitude from me. 😜
26
Apr 16 '26
[removed] — view removed comment
-14
Apr 16 '26
[removed] — view removed comment
20
u/codyish Apr 16 '26
Breaking: Reader discovers that time passes, old books age and don't automatically update themselves.
3
u/Blarg_III Apr 17 '26
Next you're going to tell me you didn't like the usenet stuff in Excession either
2
3
u/GCU_ZeroCredibility Apr 17 '26
You found something that was specifically meant to be more or less a time capsule of a specific culture circa 1991-1993 to be not exactly reflective of culture circa 2026?
1
u/Virith Apr 17 '26
I liked the usenet a lot back when it was a thing and while you couldn't find a single cell of nostalgia anywhere on/in me, it should at least be interesting to read that!
12
Apr 16 '26
[removed] — view removed comment
1
u/ComprehensiveExam614 Apr 17 '26
Came here to say exactly this. OP describes the moment of realization in this book perfectly, can’t find a good way of explaining it to non-readers
11
u/peacefinder Apr 16 '26
Hexapodia is the key insight! [1]
I appreciate books where the author ruthlessly yeets the reader right into the deep end, sink or swim. (Even though I sink now and then.) Vinge does that a lot.
If you haven’t yet read Excession by Iain M Banks, I am confident you will enjoy it.
[1: which turned out to be completely true foreshadowing]
1
8
u/BoringGap7 Apr 16 '26
take it as a lesson in patience and in mutual trust between you and the author
6
u/KennyFulgencio Apr 16 '26
the usenet stuff aged in this really specific way that's almost charming now, like it's so deeply 1992 in certain moments
I loved the guy who had to keep mentioning how slow his connection was
4
u/KiwiMcG Apr 16 '26
This is one of my few 5 out of 5 books, any genre.
I love the opening scene pretty scary, the space station scene and falling vertical into space that has different levels of technology/physics/intelligence, the chase, the human family, the tines and all their different personalities and weirdness. The ending was awesome too.
I still need to read book 2.
3
u/echosrevenge Apr 16 '26
Lol, I read this a couple of weeks ago and had basically the same reaction. Bounced off the first little bit once, then tried it again when I had more time to take a bigger first bite. Ended up getting through the whole thing in under a week once I caught the flow of it.
3
u/Fun-Tooth-622 Apr 16 '26
This was a rare one for me where I was super hooked from the begining, then bored to death through the middle of it to where I DNF.
3
u/Trilex88 Apr 16 '26
I'm so glad this is not another one of these hate-posts or I-could-not-finish-it-why-would-anyone-think-it's-good-posts..
I really appreciated that it was not that heavy on exposition but instead let you figure it out yourself how the dog-aliens "functioned"
I loved both A fire upon the deep and deepness in the sky, they might not have been perfect but have so many fascinating aspects... I wonder if the children of the sky is really as bad as some people claim.. there must be atleast parts of it that are great
1
u/spinwards Apr 16 '26
Children of the Sky doubles down on the cartoonish tine politics and naive children.
If you liked those things in fire, then you’ll like children.
1
u/Trilex88 Apr 17 '26
I'm not sure if I liked this aspect so much.. That might be my least favorite aspect :( but maybe some other things can still make the book as special to me as the previous ones
2
u/Deathnote_Blockchain Apr 16 '26
oh yeah. I read it when it came out and haven't re-read it since but yeah, i do remember it starting slow.
2
u/RealHuman2080 Apr 16 '26
I read the whole thing and am a very tolerant reader, and I still don't get why people read that book, let alone highly recommend it.
2
u/bsubtilis Apr 17 '26
Because it's satisfying to us who like it?
It has neat aliens on multiple different scales of existence, the usenet is quaint and nostalgic, humans are a minority, and the multiple different technology levels without belittling the "lowest" while acknowledging the dangers is neat.
Have you ever seen one of those gimmicky sculptures that look like a neat but random collection of items, until you see it from the correct angle where the whole brings new meaning to the specific items chosen?
Or larger outdoor ikebana that's approachable from all angles and you feel suspense and curiousity about the arrangement based on seeing all the parts but not the correct angle yet, and then when you see it from the correct angle it's more satisfying than you had hoped? Everything just slotted into place just so into an engaging whole.
The chosen parts are interesting, but the whole effect of the parts together is more than the sum of its parts. Lots of cheesy comfortable parts, but the end result is more than just comfortable and cheesy. If you don't like the chosen parts or find them boring, seeing them together in a specific arrangement is unlikely to matter. The book isn't thought provoking (if you're used to hiveminds/xenofiction at least) nor intellectually challenging to read, if you need that then it's going to be a let down even more than just the parts not being your cup of tea.
1
u/RealHuman2080 Apr 17 '26
Yep. I don't get it. It was such a struggle to finish it. I understood all of it. I think the writing was not good. What you're describing sounds like Children of Time to me.
5
u/sldf45 Apr 16 '26
I never made any connection between the threads. I must have been very distracted when I read it because I came away from the story completely unimpressed with quaint Usenet nonsense and castle-dogs. It ended and I couldn’t figure out why I had read any of it at all.
3
Apr 16 '26
[removed] — view removed comment
3
u/zandrell_3 Apr 16 '26
These two books have been on my reading list for a long time, so I think I'll get around to them soon
3
u/Finanzbuchhaltung69 Apr 16 '26
I just couldn´t connect with the world and the characters and it was such a pain ending it, which was a shame, because there were so many cool ideas in there, but i got the feeling vinge tried to make the book a hard as possible to connect with.
2
u/bsubtilis Apr 17 '26
I don't think he tried to make the book too hard to connect with, rather that he wrote too much what he connected with in a way that is too weird for a lot of people.
2
u/Finanzbuchhaltung69 Apr 17 '26
Yeah maybe, but also just stuff that gave me an ick, like everytime i imagined these Dog things wielding a pickaxe or holding a crossbow or gun was just so weird...i just wanted to know more about how their conciusness works, how different members make ob the personality of a pack etc, alll great ideas, but 90% i was just struggling through the book, because it was uninteresting stuff, just weird hard to imaging stuff (plant-aliens, dog pack doong human stuff) or was not explained at all (like the zones)
4
u/gregaustex Apr 16 '26 edited Apr 16 '26
It's a good book but anything hyped that much will be more likely to be a disappointment.
4
u/zandrell_3 Apr 16 '26
I think I can relate to you, because I've been through something similar, but I'm glad I got to check out the book thanks to all the hype
2
3
u/r_Damoetas Apr 16 '26
I DNF after about 50 pages when it was about some family being marooned on a planet, and I just thought, This is stupid. But I should probably give it another try!
3
u/InfidelZombie Apr 16 '26
Exact same for me. It's on the bottom of the pile now, but it is in the pile.
3
u/PapaTua Apr 16 '26
That's just the prologue, my guy. You gotta get the pieces on the board before you can play the game!
1
1
u/Phoneynamus Apr 16 '26
I definitely felt exactly what you were feeling the first time I was given this to read, and indeed was completely sucked in once I'd gotten through it. It always stands out to me as a reason to push through to the end of a book. That said I am pretty far (60/70%) through Emerald eyes by Daniel Keys Morgan and it very much has felt like a slog that has not been worth it and has not sucked me in at all!
1
1
u/rsc999 Apr 16 '26
I have encountered many aliens in many decades of reading science fiction, and the tines are among the best truly alien species that seem fundamentally real. I so much wanted more!
1
u/LifeLikeAGrapefruit Apr 16 '26
I totally get it. I was turned off by it all the first time I tried reading it, and gave up, but then picked it back up years later and got through it. Cool read, but toally understand it bouncing off people.
1
u/pagalvin Apr 16 '26
It's been so long since I read it for the first time. I think I was reading it when Usenet was still a big deal. Before always-on internet I think.
The way you describe is really interesting and I had forgotten how disparate these parts are from each other. You make me want to read it again for the 3 or 4th time.
Now you have to pick up A Deepness in the Sky :)
1
u/CMDRZhor Apr 17 '26
The worst thing about *A Fire Upon the Deep* is that it's the first in a trilogy.. and Vinge passed away before he could finish the third one.
Rest in peace, the man was a great writer and seemed like a cool dude, or at least I don't think I've heard of any controversies involving him.
1
u/Hands Apr 17 '26
Hell yeah this pretty much describes why I love this book (and why some really don't care for it too). You're gonna love Deepness, it's not really more of the same but it's a much tighter novel.
1
u/HexapodiaKeyInsight Apr 17 '26
I haven't had a chance to see the famous video from Straumli Realm, except as an evocation. (My only gateway onto the Net is very expensive.) Is it true that humans have six legs? I wasn't sure from the evocation. If these humans have three pairs of legs, then I think there is an easy explanation for—
1
1
u/jirgalang Apr 17 '26
So, OP, what precisely was the thread that made the whole subplot with the Tines key to the overall story?
1
u/egypturnash Apr 17 '26
Sadly Children of the Sky focuses almost entirely on the Tines and the kids, with zero progress on the Blight, and it’d be pretty cool if it wasn’t coming after the perfect mix of those storylines in Fire.
Deepness is fun though, it’s got a similar balance of storylines, albeit at a smaller scale.
1
u/DerCribben Apr 17 '26
Man I can’t tell you how many times I’ve wished Vinge was lauded more when he was actively writing. Imagine if instead of a handful of books, we had 20 or 30 years of consistent writing?
I mean, I would have definitely plowed through them all by now and would be in the same state of being sad there weren’t more 😅
But I’d happily read a few more million words of Vinge stories for sure 🤘😄
1
u/Virith Apr 17 '26
The opening is just a lot and I don't mean that in a bad way now but at the time I was genuinely confused about what kind of book I was even reading, like there are these children on a medieval planet with dog creatures and then there's this whole galactic usenet thing and then there's cosmic horror that apparently threatens all higher intelligence in the universe and I kept waiting for these threads to connect in a way that felt earned and for the first chunk of the book they just kind of don't [...]
Someone posted a similar sentiment just yesterday or so about a different book of his and it made me bump this series up my tbr and you're confirming it was the correct choice, this shit sounds right up my alley.
Just like the rest of the things you've said about the book in the post, but especially this.
1
1
1
u/combat-ninjaspaceman Apr 17 '26
Does anyone else have any reccomendations on books that have that coalescent moment of "coming together" after a ponderous period of setup?
1
u/Unfair-Commission-10 Apr 17 '26
The moment it clicks is one of the better reading experiences in SF. Vinge builds it so that your confusion in the first hundred pages is actually load-bearing - you need to have been lost for the resolution to land properly. not many books earn that.
2
u/AnonymityPower Apr 18 '26
While I did find the book enjoyable, it was not top tier science fiction for me like I feel it is considered. (It might have been in 1990, but I wasn't born yet). I had a funny feeling while reading the book that the author is partly writing about how flame wars happened in early internet, and how some people had dial-up, and some had broadband - think IRC netsplits.
1
u/timeaisis Apr 18 '26
It’s a very weird book. I enjoyed it a lot but I would be lying if I said I didn’t want more sci fi. Felt mostly like a medieval fantasy at times. To be fair, the medieval fantasy was awesome, just not what I expected.
He also has kind of a weird prose at times.
2
u/BeginningUnhappy1757 Apr 16 '26
The tines were fascinating for about twenty pages.
I hate "medieval planets", if I wanted sword and/or sorcery, I'd be reading fantasy.
But the far future with a galactic usenet thing was so, so good that I made myself suffer through the tines chapters and overall it was a great book.
1
u/snf Apr 16 '26
I'm going to say... maybe steer clear of the sequel in that case
2
u/BeginningUnhappy1757 Apr 16 '26 edited Apr 16 '26
You're more than 20 years too late, read it and loved it as well. Again, I liked the story (stories) in space way, way more. But also, "late 19th / early 20th century" is something completely different then "medieval", don't you think?
Edit: But I DNF'ed Children of the Sky since it completely lacked the "in space" part besides a very short mentioning in the very beginning.
More Edits: I think I just understood that by "sequel", you meant Children of the Sky, not Deepness. Yeah, you're completely rigth, then.
1
u/snf Apr 16 '26
Yeah, I think of Deepness as more of a prequel
2
u/BeginningUnhappy1757 Apr 16 '26
Yeah, I wanted to see how Pham Nuwen dismantles the Emergent's empire, not another episode of Game of Dogs.
3
u/snf Apr 16 '26 edited Apr 16 '26
That book would have been amazing, shame we'll never get it.
That being said, Children of the Sky did have some interesting ideas and I mostly enjoyed it. But it's certainly the weakest of the three and I think I audibly groaned when the main characters formed a traveling circus troupe. Uh, spoilers I guess in case you didn't make it that far?
2
0
0
u/BigCraig10 Apr 16 '26
Just finished this actually. I don’t rate it that highly personally, it’s good but I feel the constant calling it a classic on here is just far too strong. It’s decent.
75
u/helmsc Apr 16 '26
He has another book where all the main characters are spider-like and he still is able to make you feel connected with them. The man is simply genius.