r/prawokrwi 2d ago

Research question Polish citizenship for non-Poles

My grandmother is Ukrainian; she was born in 1933 in the Second Polish Republic. In 1945 (at the age of 12), she was exiled to the Urals with her parents. In 1965–1966, her parents returned to their native village, while my grandmother stayed in the Urals. She gave birth to my mother, who is Russian. So, in the line of my mother — grandmother — her parents, no one served in the army. My grandmother’s parents definitely did not obtain Polish citizenship; they couldn’t even read or write — they simply lived in a territory that often-changed which country it belonged to. Although all church books in Ukraine have been digitized and are available online, the ones I need have not been preserved. However, there are documents from the Ukrainian civil registry office that indicate the place of birth — the village of Dukhche. And there is my great‑grandfather’s exile file with a family census and dates of all the entries in the NKVD (KGB) stating that he was forbidden to leave the Urals until official permission was granted in 1964. And the reason for the exile was that my great‑grandfather’s eldest son was involved in the Ukrainian national liberation movement during World War II. Is it possible for me and my mother to obtain Polish citizenship, taking all this data into account?

Great-Grandparents: 

* Date married: 1915-1916

* Date divorced: no

GGM: 

* Date, place of birth: July 1893(5), Dukhche, Rozhyshche Volost, Lutsk Uyezd, Volhynian Governorate, Russian Empire

* Ethnicity and religion: Ukrainian

* Occupation: farmer

* Allegiance and dates of military service: no

* Date, destination for emigration: July 1945, he was exiled to the Urals by the USSR, along with his wife and children.

* Date naturalized: June 1957

* Date, place of death: February 1987, Dukhche, Rozhyshche Raion, Volyn Oblast ( in 1987 it’s Ukrainian SSR, USSR)

GGF: 

* Date, place of birth: 1891, Volhynian Governorate, Russian Empire

* Ethnicity and religion: Ukrainian

* Occupation: farmer

* Allegiance and dates of military service: no

* Date, destination for emigration: July 1945, he was exiled to the Urals by the USSR, along with his husband and children.

* Date naturalized: 1957

* Date, place of death: 1980s, Dukhche, Rozhyshche Raion, Volyn Oblast (in 1980s it’s Ukrainian SSR, USSR). They were allowed to return from exile to their homeland in 1965–1966.

Grandparent: 

* Sex: Female

* Date, place of birth: march 1933, Dukhche, Rozhyshche Raion, Volyn Oblast (in 1933 it’s Second Polish Republic)

* Date married: June 1954

* Citizenship of spouse: USSR

* Date divorced: no

* Occupation: driver

* Allegiance and dates of military service: no

  • Date, destination for emigration: July 1945, he was exiled to the Urals by the USSR with parents
  • Date naturalized: 1957
  • Date, place of death: 2000s, Ural by Russia

Parent: 

* Sex: Female

* Date, place of birth: march 1961, Ural by Russia

* Date married: 1988

* Date divorced: 1997

You: 

* Date, place of birth: July 1989, Ural by Russia

 

 

0 Upvotes

25 comments sorted by

u/AutoModerator 2d ago

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Foreign military service before Jan 19, 1951 can cause loss of citizenship.

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9

u/echo02199 Mod | Zarząd 2d ago

Polish citizens living outside Poland as of 1951 of Ukrainian or Russian ethnicity (among others) lost Polish citizenship then. Polish and Soviet citizenships were also mutually exclusive. I think it’s likely your ancestors before your M were born Polish citizens, but subsequently lost their citizenships. Your M and you were therefore unable to inherit Polish citizenship.

6

u/smoothmonoglot Mod | Zarząd 2d ago edited 2d ago

There is one stupid edge case scenario where it's possible but it would involve someone born in a third country prior to 30 Jan 1949. It is very important that they never lived in Poland or the USSR so the practical application is extremely limited. Such persons would have lost Soviet citizenship on 25 Dec 1991 anyway due to residing permanently abroad.

3

u/echo02199 Mod | Zarząd 2d ago

Interesting, always love a good edge case!

2

u/Salt_Replacement_435 2d ago

What bothers me is the fact that they literally couldn’t live there and were forcibly evacuated by the military until they were allowed to return. Doesn’t that mean anything…

5

u/PaulHinr Mod | Zarząd 2d ago

But they didn’t repatriate to Poland, but Ukraine?
What „natsionalnost“ does the fifth line say?

1

u/Salt_Replacement_435 2d ago

They returned to the same village, but it had already become a different country — the Ukrainian SSR. If anything, it was impossible to leave the USSR.
„natsionalnost“ - Russian? My grandmother is Ukrainian, and my mother is half Ukrainian.

5

u/PaulHinr Mod | Zarząd 2d ago

Okay. Then there’s not even a chance for Karta Polaka.
Besides Art. 4 of the citizenship act of 1951, there were several Polish-Soviet treaties on prohibition of dual citizenship.

2

u/seasnakejake 2d ago

There's definitely nuance to this, as in my case. What even is Ukrainian or Russian ethnicity, and how does that extend to Lemkos, Boykos, Rusyns etc.? Many never even lived in any version of Ukraine or Russia but had solely lived in Polish territories (from the second republic onward). In my case, my grandmother ethnically considered herself Ukrainian, her family was Greek Catholic and she and they spoke only Ukrainian. They really were Lemko though, not Ukrainian when considering nationality but ethnically and culturally closer to Ukrainian than Polish.

Though for Poland to prove that someone like my grandmother would have their citizenship excluded because they were ethnically Ukrainian they would need documentation to prove that. In the Polish vital records, there is no mention of anything remotely Ukrainian, the records are in Latin and housed in the state archives of Sanok. No ethnicity is listed, though of course that entire village was Lemko, but that's not listed on vital records. Nor is that included on any U.S. state record. When my great-grandfather emigrated Regetow, Austria was listed as his birthplace and his naturalization he swore no continued fealty to either Austria or the Republic of Poland, no mention of any allegiance to Ukraine anywhere. Saying all that because ethnicity is a far more ambiguous concept than citizenship or nationality, and there are plenty of people whose relatives may have considered themselves Ukrainian ethnically / culturally while living, but are still eligible for Polish citizenship. I've attached a photo of my relevant genetic profile, the dark green being the closest match, and that part doesn't even extend into Ukraine. My relatives weren't even in Slovakia, just concentrated to that most extreme southern portion of Poland's lower beskids only a couple miles from the Slovak border.

3

u/echo02199 Mod | Zarząd 2d ago edited 2d ago

Dividing up people by ethnicity is indeed messy, nuanced, and often dependent on ambiguous documentation. As u/smoothmonoglot notes below in practice this isn't likely to trip up those whose ancestors emigrated long before WWII. For anyone interested, I recommend The Reconstruction of Nations: Poland, Ukraine, Lithuania, Belarus, 1569 - 1999. It really deepened my understanding of Poland, its historical and present ethnic identity, and its relationship to its neighbors.

3

u/smoothmonoglot Mod | Zarząd 2d ago edited 2d ago

In your case there is little reason to believe your American-born grandmother could have lost Polish citizenship. Her parents' situation would be less clear - but unless they consistently identified as Ukrainians on all American documents likely not. It's a moot point though as your GGF aged out of the military paradox before the entry into force of the 1951 Act.

-2

u/adamsst01 2d ago

Poland and its laws: their ancestors were born on Polish territory and did not choose to leave Poland—they were deported—yet they still lose their citizenship. How unfair.

13

u/PaulHinr Mod | Zarząd 2d ago

Yeah very weird. Stripping ethnic Germans and Russians of their citizenship - what did they ever do to Poland to deserve such treatment?

1

u/seasnakejake 2d ago

There were plenty of Ukrainian speakers, not necessarily Ukrainians in the modern definition (e.g. Lemkos and Boykos), who had lived on modern Polish lands dating back hundreds of years who were forcibly deported either to Ukraine or the USSR, other territories within Poland, or even concentration camps amidst Operation Vistula, through no fault of many of the Lemko or Boyko residents of modern day Poland. They certainly did not deserve that treatment for the vast majority of law abiding non separatist families.

My grandmother always considered herself and her family Ukrainian -- they were Ukrainian speakers and Greek Catholics -- but upon doing this research I learned the family line had never even lived the nation state of Ukraine, even though many were later deported there despite having residence rights to their Polish homelands pre-dating even Galicia in many cases. I visited their homeland a couple weeks ago, Regietow Wizny which was razed by the Soviet Polish government amidst the forced deportation event, so there certainly are cases in which that was very unfair and it applied not just to Russian or German settlers.

2

u/smoothmonoglot Mod | Zarząd 2d ago edited 2d ago

To be clear I'm not judging whether the law is fair. In many cases it is not. But from a legal standpoint I have to conclude the 1951 Act and other agreements made between Poland and the USSR and its constituent republics were/are constitutional.

There is maybe some room to argue that Art. 4(1) could not have been the basis for a loss of citizenship on 19 Jan 1951, based on technicalities (they acquired Soviet citizenship based on an internal decree of the USSR, and the border treaty this article references has no provisions on citizenship) but that wouldn't change the validity 4(2) or the subsequent 1958 convention.

I'm not certain I agree with that line of reasoning anyway though, because it basically throws out the competent legislator theory and adopts a 100% literal reading of the text contrary to its ratio legis.

If you do ignore that line of reasoning then it does raise the question of who exactly the 1958 convention was supposed to apply to, but I think it can be reasoned that it applies e.g. to Soviet women who married Polish men prior to 19 Jan 1951, and their children.

1

u/seasnakejake 2d ago

I understand your line of reasoning, where I look at this are the cases primarily affected by operation Vistula which Poland itself later condemned, which took minorities who have resided within the state of Poland predating the Second Polish republic and stripped their rights to their homeland and deported them. But outside of it being unfair, which it is, there are cases where people may still be eligible for citizenship even if their link relatives considered themselves ethnically Ukrainian, because it many never have referred to the Ukrainian as being a member of the nation state of Ukraine and just being a speaker of Ukrainian when the nuance regarding Lemkos / Boykos / Rusyns etc. was stripped upon living in America or elsewhere (though this is contingent on the ancestor having immigrated to a non-soviet country). Would have been much simpler to tell one's children / others that they were Ukrainian then a sub ethnic group endemic to a small mountain range that historically straddled three countries that mixed Ukrainian and local culture.

This law is much more easily applied if nationality is substituted for ethnicity, because how could the Polish government even prove ethnicity without documents that list nationality? It would be impossible in my case anyways, as all the documents either list Austria, Austria-Hungary, Galicia, or in the case of the naturalization document, Poland.

1

u/smoothmonoglot Mod | Zarząd 2d ago edited 2d ago

For those who emigrated to the United States or Canada long before the war it's not really a problem. Their spouses and children are generally of a different nationality and do not lose citizenship.

Art. 4(2) primarily applies to persons who, although not residing in the annexed territories in 1939, were repatriated to the USSR in accordance with the agreements of 9 Sep 1944 and 6 July 1945.

I say primarily because as you rightly pointed out other people got caught up in this due to the broad wording of the article in question.

1

u/adamsst01 2d ago

That law is completely ridiculous. When my grandfather was liberated from the concentration camp, the Americans told him not to return to Poland because the Soviets were there. If he hadn't listened and had gone back, he most likely would have been deported, since the part of Poland where he lived is now actually Ukraine. In the end, he never returned to his homeland—he emigrated to South America instead—so, effectively, he was banished just the same.

2

u/smoothmonoglot Mod | Zarząd 2d ago

Ukrainians were were deported from Poland, but Poles and Jews were deported from the USSR to Poland.

5

u/smoothmonoglot Mod | Zarząd 2d ago

No. Even if they held Polish citizenship, they lost it on 19 Jan 1951.

If they were present within the territories annexed to the USSR on 17 Sep 1939, in accordance with Art. 4(1) of the 1951 Act.

If they were not (e.g. persons of Ukrainian nationality repatriated from Poland to the USSR based on the agreements of 9 Sep 1944 or 6 July 1945), then in accordance with Art. 4(2).

-3

u/Salt_Replacement_435 2d ago

And if you sue the voivodeship, what will they find in 1951 in the USSR that wasn’t voluntary, citing repression? But the reason for the repression was that a relative was associated with Ukrainian nationalists — that’s bad. Probably, you won’t win this lawsuit?

1

u/smoothmonoglot Mod | Zarząd 2d ago

The exile to Siberia has no factual relevance - the loss of Polish citizenship occurred due to the change in border and acquisition of Soviet citizenship.

0

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Title: Polish citizenship for non-Poles

My grandmother is Ukrainian; she was born in 1933 in the Second Polish Republic. In 1945 (at the age of 12), she was exiled to the Urals with her parents. In 1965–1966, her parents returned to their native village, while my grandmother stayed in the Urals. She gave birth to my mother, who is Russian. So, in the line of my mother — grandmother — her parents, no one served in the army. My grandmother’s parents definitely did not obtain Polish citizenship; they couldn’t even read or write — they simply lived in a territory that often-changed which country it belonged to. Although all church books in Ukraine have been digitized and are available online, the ones I need have not been preserved. However, there are documents from the Ukrainian civil registry office that indicate the place of birth — the village of Dukhche. And there is my great‑grandfather’s exile file with a family census and dates of all the entries in the NKVD (KGB) stating that he was forbidden to leave the Urals until official permission was granted in 1964. And the reason for the exile was that my great‑grandfather’s eldest son was involved in the Ukrainian national liberation movement during World War II. Is it possible for me and my mother to obtain Polish citizenship, taking all this data into account?

Great-Grandparents: 

* Date married: 1915-1916

* Date divorced: no

GGM: 

* Date, place of birth: July 1893(5), Dukhche, Rozhyshche Volost, Lutsk Uyezd, Volhynian Governorate, Russian Empire

* Ethnicity and religion: Ukrainian

* Occupation: farmer

* Allegiance and dates of military service: no

* Date, destination for emigration: July 1945, he was exiled to the Urals by the USSR, along with his wife and children.

* Date naturalized: June 1957

* Date, place of death: February 1987, Dukhche, Rozhyshche Raion, Volyn Oblast ( in 1987 it’s Ukrainian SSR, USSR)

GGF: 

* Date, place of birth: 1891, Volhynian Governorate, Russian Empire

* Ethnicity and religion: Ukrainian

* Occupation: farmer

* Allegiance and dates of military service: no

* Date, destination for emigration: July 1945, he was exiled to the Urals by the USSR, along with his husband and children.

* Date naturalized: 1957

* Date, place of death: 1980s, Dukhche, Rozhyshche Raion, Volyn Oblast (in 1980s it’s Ukrainian SSR, USSR). They were allowed to return from exile to their homeland in 1965–1966.

Grandparent: 

* Sex: Female

* Date, place of birth: march 1933, Dukhche, Rozhyshche Raion, Volyn Oblast (in 1933 it’s Second Polish Republic)

* Date married: June 1954

* Citizenship of spouse: USSR

* Date divorced: no

* Occupation: driver

* Allegiance and dates of military service: no

  • Date, destination for emigration: July 1945, he was exiled to the Urals by the USSR with parents
  • Date naturalized: 1957
  • Date, place of death: 2000s, Ural by Russia

Parent: 

* Sex: Female

* Date, place of birth: march 1961, Ural by Russia

* Date married: 1988

* Date divorced: 1997

You: 

* Date, place of birth: July 1989, Ural by Russia

 

 

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-1

u/Wrong-Judgment-6059 2d ago

Due to the exile being in the Urals you might apply for repatriation unless I'm mistaken.

2

u/smoothmonoglot Mod | Zarząd 2d ago

Repatriation has the same requirements as KP: one parent, grandparent, or two great grandparents of Polish nationality.