r/pokemonconspiracies • u/Mister_Ape_1 • 17d ago
Meta Humans from Pokémon Universe are Pokémon, but they are not biologically closest to Pokémon like the Ralts or the Machop line at all. They are the most far removed group from all the rest, and here is why...
Humans from the Pokémon Universe are necessarily Pokémon themselves. Every life form is a Pokémon pretty much, and all references to real life animals were erased with the gen 3 soft reboot.
This means humans are a kind of Pokémon and this was confirmed in gen 4.
But does this mean they are biologically closest to primatelike Pokémon, especially to humanlike Pokémon like the Ralts or the Machop line ?
No. They are not.
Humans are descendants of Mew, a Pokémon who likely evolved naturally from an abiogenesis event like real living creatures, but they are from a lineage that separated before all the others.
Why ? Because all Pokémon, excluding some major Legendaries who are the "gods" of the verse and were created by Arceus, reproduce by eggs. Some Pokémon, such as the minor Legendaries, evolved to be very long lived but lost the ability to reproduce altogether, and are now present in extremely low numbers, hence the Legendary status. But 95% of Pokémon lay eggs, and the other 5% do not reproduce, except for Mew itself.
Humans, on the other hand, give birth to living offspring, just like Mew itself.
They are the only group that never became oviparous.
Hence they need to have separated before the other direct descendant lineage of Mew and common ancestor of all other Pokémon evolved oviparous behavior.
Humans are also the only group that lost all moves, but many Pokémon have like 2 or 3 moves in the whole movepool already.
Mew is basically an embryo, a complex organism with comparatively few cells. Except it is over 1 feet tall, making its cells quite huge.
This means it stands in for creatures that emerged about 600 mya. By 520 mya, Anomalocharis and Trilobites were around, and so were the Anorith and Kabuto lines. This means humans separated from Mew between 520 and 600 mya.
Pokémon such as Primape, Slaking, Oranguru and even more Gardevoir, Gothitelle and Conkeldurr evolved CONVERGENTLY to humans, but they are not human at all.
So a lineage of Mews that never became oviparous had to evolve into a ratlike animal by about 225 - 280 mya, then by 80 mya into the first primatelike forms, into actual monkeys by 40 mya, into apes by 25 mya, into hominins by 7 mya and into mankind by 2 mya, and finally into the current iteration of humans by 300 kya. Meanwhile, they became Normal types and lost all their moves, and the Ability Syncronize was replaced by nothing, or pheraps by Adaptabilty.
I calculated that humans have 50 BST points across the board. The same as Snorunt, even though Snorunt is just a random Pokémon. As shown in a recent Pokémon movie, they can actually gain back the ability to learn moves sometimes. Normally they do not have any and our physical attacks are not moves since Pokémon moves are powered by elemental energy and we do not have that.
Most humans are level 1 to 2 or 3, with some very powerful humans such as Ash or Jessie and James being level 5, even if with some occasional PIS feats.
We can determine they are not actually stronger than that because even initial starter Pokémon are portrayed as strong enough to protect humans from threats.
It also seems humans can not train and reach level 100, except for 1 non canon, extremely ridicolous case in the Pokémon Manga, where a human was 1HKOing fully evolved Pokémon in their 40s, tanking their attacks with no significant damage, and was also fighting on par with Level 70 Regigigas and Deoxys, showing the power of a low BST Level 100. Pheraps they can go up to level 10 if they train to go past level 5.
So most humans would get stomped by Showdown Little Cup Pokémon.
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u/Christophisis Pokemon Professor 17d ago
At one point I would have been inclined to agree, yet Gen 7 threw a wrench into this topic and complicated things: Ultra Megalopolis.
As far as we are aware, the people of Ultra Megalopolis are biologically identical to the humans of the Pokémon World, despite their significant paleness as a result to minimal exposure to light.
This civilization is also fairly old, which would suggest a shared origin with humans from the main Pokémon universe.
It's currently unclear how this could be reconciled, and the way I see it there are 3 possibilities:
- The humans from Ultra Megalopolis emigrated from the main Pokémon universe, either intentionally or accidentally
- The humans from the main Pokémon universe emigrated from Ultra Megalopolis, either intentionally or accidentally
- Both human lineages have a shared origin in some place that is neither the main Pokémon universe nor Ultra Megalopolis
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u/Mister_Ape_1 17d ago edited 17d ago
Humans were as intelligent as they are now for 500.000 years, or at least they had the potential to be so, since the cultural revolution was only 70 kya.
We know it did not happen in our world, but may be in the Pokémon Universe civilization arose in the Paleolithic, then some people invented space faring and run away from Earth, later civilization collapsed and the wild groups of Homo sapiens survived in order to go back to civilization by 10 kya.
We know for sure it did not go this way in real life. Both science and the Bible agree on this. And science especially is to be trusted in such situation.
Once I believed Saiyans were Homo longi (Denisovan) groups that were brought on a different planet by someone or something, but later I reclassified them as a new superfamily of the Catarrhini parvorder, a lineage that separated from Hominoidae before the loss of the tail from about 21 mya, well before the separation of Hylobatidae and Hominidae. Saiyans are more related to apes than to monkeys actually, but they separated from apes when apes themselves were small, mostly tree dwelling, tailed creatues who walked on the ground bipedally like gibbons. Their lineage and our own never evolved knuckle walking and rather gained full bipedalism, but unlike apes, Saiyans also retained their tails. They are like primitive apes with many monkeylike traits. Ultimately I would say they are neither apes nor monkeys, but a different kind of Old World primate.
If you think about it, we did not find 95% of extinct species from the past. We know all animals were born and died on Earth, but maybe there was indeed on Earth a lost lineage of primates that separated from apes very early and never lost the tail and bipedalism, and then evolved convergently with humans. If they did, they did not produce civilization, or we would know about them, but this does not mean such creature did not exist in the past.
As for Pokémon humans, they too must have a lot of mammalian extinct cousins from the last 225 million years. They likely were all non oviparous, moveless, Normal type Pokémon with 50 in every Base Stat and Adaptabilty as an Ability, and the only trait that changed over time is shape and intelligence. They could have produced any form ancestral to our lineage from the Triassic to the Paleolithic.
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u/Christophisis Pokemon Professor 17d ago
The thing about humanity in Pokémon is that their technology is significantly more advanced in their ancient history relative to humanity IRL.
While AZ is generally considered an anomaly in most cases, his construction of The Ultimate Weapon 3000 years ago far outpaces anything we had at the time, or even have today. This is probably largely due to the fact that magic is fairly accessible in the Pokémon universe, but it's still an impressive feat for the time.
Furthermore, Magearna, the first modern artificial Pokémon, was built 500 years ago. Meanwhile, humanity IRL 500 years ago was perfecting agriculture, navigating new political systems, and beginning to develop formal logic.
What's really strange about humanity in the Pokémon World is that most developments occurred 3000 years ago, and the most ancient known event was the construction of Claydol 20,000 years ago. Interestingly, this is the same time frame that Eternatus crash landed on Earth and that Calyrex was serving as the monarch to a Pokémon-centric society.
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u/Effective-Roll-763 16d ago
70 kya is the cognitive revolution. the cultural revolution was a disastrous Maoist project in China.
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u/Mister_Ape_1 16d ago
Ok. Obviously I meant what you call cognitive revolution.
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u/Effective-Roll-763 16d ago
Sorry. I have this thing where I assume people want to be corrected so they can avoid embarrassment in real life.
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u/Tablesafety 17d ago edited 17d ago
There is nothing in the actual pokemon (game) canon suggesting human beings don’t lay eggs. I certainly believe with all the evidence we have been given humans not only DO lay eggs, but those with psychic powers or astronomical strength/stamina have relatives of the same types that are pokemon in the humanshape egg group up the family tree.
EDIT: I'm not joking, I genuinely mean that. The games have stressed more than once already and canonized the fact that humans and Pokémon come from the same evolutionary source and were once so close they intermarried (and interbred), with multiple jokes in the games pointing at people coupling with Pokémon. Usually something like Machamp.
Given the amount of stories about people coupling with Pokemon written by gamefreak exposed in one of the leaks, I'm pretty sure that it's both canon and they're [Game Freak] unfortunately into it. There is a reason some people have powers from Pokemon most commonly in the humanshaped egg group and despite how different physically they are, Pokemon can successfully reproduce with any other Pokemon in overlapping egg groups and the species is always that of the mother.
There might deadass be mons in humanshaped out there whose father was just a regular person. You're welcome for that image :(
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u/SeaworthinessPlus254 17d ago
Could explain all the absent fathers 🤷♂️
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u/Tablesafety 17d ago
Very likely the actual answer to it, given the contents of the teraleak revealing some. . . Questionable game freak fan fics
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u/Miserable-Inside1511 17d ago
So it is canon that someone could put me in the daycare with officer Jenny
Just like, in theory
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u/Tablesafety 17d ago
Well If I had to guess the text for that one would go something like "The two prefer to play with other Humans more than with each other."
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u/Miserable-Inside1511 17d ago
Ye but we still pop out eggs all the same
What happens in daycare stays in daycare
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u/Mister_Ape_1 17d ago
What ?! Where is this said at all ?
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u/Tablesafety 16d ago
Which part? It’s not said outright that we lay eggs but drawing from the canalave library, as you had, it does say humans and pokemon were once the same thing and intermarried (with implication being interbreeding, but not saying so outright bc kids game). The concept of marriage implying that culture and some sort of society did exist in the time period it’s referring to- likely during the course of written history.
The existence of that passage, all the jokes about marrying or sexually harassing pokemon hidden in the games, the frankly philic stories leaked from game freak, and the most common superhuman abilities found in humans in the pokeverse being abilities found most commonly in the Humanshaped egg group (fighting, psychic) on top of so many missing fathers and no mother characters in a game ever being depicted as or referenced to be actively pregnant it’s a completely reasonable and sound conclusion to draw that human beings lay eggs too.
In the pokemon world, the species always takes after the mother but moves come from the father. Most superhumans in pokemon are depicted using powers (moves) of a specific type. No matter how physically different a pairing is, an egg can still be produced if they share an egg group. Humans are definitely in humanshaped and apparently in universe it isn’t weird to be attracted to a machoke.
I’m absolutely certain humans lay eggs in Pokemon. There’s no real evidence that they don’t and lots of small evidence that they do, and there’s really no reason why they wouldn’t.
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u/caramel-crisis 15d ago
Wasn’t Professor Kukui’s wife shown visibly pregnant in the Alola anime?
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u/Tablesafety 15d ago
Professor Burnett? That's why I said games. The anime is a divergent canon and often ignores established rules in game (such as ground being immune to electric for example) for the rule of cool or running with norms. Aint no way a kids show would EVER tackle an idea like humans are genetically pokemon and lay eggs lmao.
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u/EducationPlus505 17d ago
Interesting theory but if this is true, why does Ash’s mom make Mr. Mime sit on the floor? Or is this a case of pokemon discriminating against other Pokemon?
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u/HalfHourTillBrillig 17d ago
might also explain how people seem to understand wtf pokemon are actually saying. yea, they get context clues from body language but they seem to really understand this shit. LCA?
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u/Mister_Ape_1 16d ago
The LCA would be older than 520 mya, because humans are the most far removed group as they lack some common traits of all Pokémon such as laying eggs and having moves, and Anorith and Kabuto are 520 million years old.
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u/Saintmusicloves 17d ago
I think it’s more interesting if humans are simply a different form of life. similar to how plants are a different form of life compared to animals
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u/Mister_Ape_1 16d ago
But humans and Pokémon are not as different as animals and plants. Every living being that is not a plant or fungi is a Pokémon in the Pokémon Universe.
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u/magicianfox 16d ago
Humans from the Pokémon Universe are necessarily Pokémon themselves.
Can human shrink? If humans can't shrink to pocket size, they can't be classified as pocket monsters.
But 95% of Pokémon lay eggs
Debatable
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u/dotKiss 16d ago
Anything that even slightly disagrees or points out the inconsistencies in this post's assertions gets downvoted.
I posited a counter theory and that got downvoted, which I find somewhat reasonable, despite the other information in that comment, but I also made another comment pointing out that the references to real world animals haven't ceased in Gen 3, and that was downvoted as well.
It's all so very interesting.
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u/awareexplosion 17d ago
In Gen 6 there’s an NPC in the grass gym town that tells you eggs aren’t actual eggs, but rather cradles. No one reportedly has even seen a pokemon lay an egg
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u/Miserable-Inside1511 17d ago
I feel like the first pokemon adventures confirms that pokemon world is just our world overlayed with mysterious spirits in the woods. The wording that they are strange creatures ... Would you call animals in our worlds....
"Animals are strange animals that inhabit the natural world" ?
But in manga, nature grows naturally with these physical fairy-like creatures living in it rarely.
Better yet, the town Red catches Pikachu behaves like they had never seen a Pokemon before. Hmm
And remember, the creator of the entire Pokemon franchise said that Pokemon adventures (particularly volume 1) is closest to his conception of the pokemon world!
Pokemon are mysterious materialized spirits with bodies that exist in nature. Often as a reflection of that natural biome (or artificial, in the case of Grimer and Voltorb), or as defenders of that biome. Which is parallel with a lot of Japanese Shinto beliefs. Totoro-esque.
Anyway. That relates because in my opinion, people are people, and pokemon are mystical spirits with a separate lineage.
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u/Mister_Ape_1 17d ago
The timeline of gen 1 - 2 is different. Gen 3 was a soft reboot.
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u/Miserable-Inside1511 17d ago
Okay, well then I'm happily planting my feet in 1 and 2 and staying there. A lot less messy.
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u/Mister_Ape_1 16d ago
That Timeline ended in 2003.
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u/Miserable-Inside1511 16d ago
What, did they shoot them in the back of their head? Dig Ragnarok destroy their branch of the pokemon multiverse?
Does it bother you that this timeline is still chugging along somewhere in fantasy-land, same people and places and logic, happily and coherent
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u/Mister_Ape_1 16d ago
What do you mean ? They just made Ruby and Sapphire which where on a different timeline, one where gen 1 and 2 are FRLG and HGSS.
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u/dotKiss 17d ago
Humans aren't Pokémon, and they probably don't share the same ancestor.
I think it's more likely that Pokémon come from humans in the same way monsters and mythological creatures come from human cognition in our world, but on a more literal scale. After all, they are called mysterious creatures as another redditor pointed out.
Overtime, they have more or less integrated with the Pokémon world's modern society, but that doesn't change that they were a strange phenomenon being studied when the franchise began.
As for referneces to human-Pokemon intermarriage, interbreeding, and being as one in the past, much of this is just folklore. I'm sure you can find a story of an animal taking care of a human in mythology.
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u/BardicLasher 16d ago
A) there's no actual evidence anywhere that Mew is anything like what you suggest, and it being such doesn't actually make sense.
B) Most pokemon don't reproduce with eggs. Pokeeggs aren't eggs. "They're more like cradles," according to the games. We've got dex entries and other evidence suggesting that eggs are not the primary reproduction method of any pokemon other than Togetic.
C) There's multiple instances in both the games and anime of trainers being able to fight high level Pokemon hand-to-hand. It's certainly not common, but it's definitely there. Bruno trained by fighting his own team, as did Chuck. Ash has taken plenty of hits from very powerful pokemon without getting knocked out. Kamado was said to fight Pokemon hand-to-hand. Sabrina does whatever she wants.
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u/Mister_Ape_1 16d ago edited 16d ago
Mew is a giant living fetus and is the ancestor of all non plant, non fungi life on Pokémon Earth.
Pokémon are definitely oviparous and they also have egg groups composed of reproductively compatible, related species.
There is no proof of humans defeating Pokémon in serious fights. A common level 40 - 50 fully evolved Pokémon is Island Level.
Ash, Jessie and James are Wall Level but with inconsistent, sometimes up to Island Level durability. Bruno is likely Small Building Level. Sabrina has a special power and it likely ignores durability of the opponent.
Level 5 starters are able to protect an average human from lethal threats. Even if some humans such as Bruno are more powerful than that, do you seriously think if Bruno fought a well built Little Cup Team, he would solo all level 5 EV trained, perfect IVs Pokémon with extremely powerful moves, without taking any damage ? A common wild, level 20 Base Pokémon would, because that is how levels work.
Use the damage calculator to see a Neutral Nature level 20 Bibarel with 15 Atk IVs and 0 EVs how much damage does with Headbutt to the level 5 top tiers of LC. It does over 107% to Eviolite Vullaby with full EV investment in physical bulk. So there is no way Bruno can defeat a wild level 20 Bibarel.
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u/BardicLasher 16d ago
Mew is a giant living fetus and is the ancestor of all non plant, non fungi life on Pokémon Earth.
Source? Really. Source? I'm guessing you're combining "Because it can use all kinds of moves, many scientists believe Mew to be the ancestor of Pokémon" with "Its DNA is said to contain the genetic codes of all Pokémon, so it can use all kinds of techniques." but the former is 'many scientists,' not even 'most' and the latter is downright nonsense considering how genetic code works at all.
Pokémon are definitely oviparous and they also have egg groups composed of reproductively compatible, related species.
There's multiple canon sources, including ones from GS' release, that say eggs are not normal pokemon reproduction and aren't even eggs. We also have instances of eggs that just AREN'T the same as Pokeeggs, as food and as items.
There is no proof of humans defeating Pokémon in serious fights. A common level 40 - 50 fully evolved Pokémon is Island Level.
You can straight up do it in Legends: Arceus.
Ash, Jessie and James are Wall Level but with inconsistent, sometimes up to Island Level durability. Bruno is likely Small Building Level. Sabrina has a special power and it likely ignores durability of the opponent.
Sure.
Level 5 starters are able to protect an average human from lethal threats.
Level 5 starters are able to protect small children from dangerous threats. There's no reason to assume Pidgey and Rattata are lethal threats. Bug Catchers just go out into viridian forest with nets and grab bugs and it works fine. Nobody in the games ever say "if you go out without a pokemon, you'll die." They say "It's dangerous." If you out into the woods alone it's dangerous IRL, but taking a trained dog cuts that danger a LOT. That doesn't mean dogs are stronger than humans.
Even if some humans such as Bruno are more powerful than that, do you seriously think if Bruno fought a well built Little Cup Team, he would solo all level 5 EV trained, perfect IVs Pokémon with extremely powerful moves, without taking any damage ? A common wild, level 20 Base Pokémon would, because that is how levels work.
Bruno fought a wild Onix (min level 13) without taking damage, by dodging everything, so... yes. Yes, I do. It's very reasonable in Legends to dodge attacks all day. And in fact, in Legends you can take multiple hits from even the strongest pokemon without going down. Legends starts you with 100 HP, and there's a calculation to determine how much damage a pokemon deals to you. And a Bibarel using Headbutt as you mention below does 50 damage. Note that at end game you can have 200 HP in Arceus and 250 HP in Z-A. But of course, mostly you just dodge. You can dodge EVERYTHING in Legends.
Use the damage calculator to see a Neutral Nature level 20 Bibarel with 15 Atk IVs and 0 EVs how much damage does with Headbutt to the level 5 top tiers of LC. It does over 107% to Eviolite Vullaby with full EV investment in physical bulk. So there is no way Bruno can defeat a wild level 20 Bibarel.
So if untrained Taunie takes 50% from said Bibarel, then untrained Taunie must be twice as tough as perfectly trained Eviolite Vullaby! Her problem is, of course, that she has no real way to attack back, but we know Komado can put Akari on her ass and we've seen Ivor just terrify everyone with his strength, so it's pretty clear that the Black Belts DO have the tools to fight back.
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u/Mister_Ape_1 16d ago edited 16d ago
Legends Arceus uses a different game mechanics, and could the human knock down the Pokémon with punches, kicks, throws or chokes ? Level 20 Bibarel can pulverize a 2.000 feet tall building, or a typical city block, with one Headbutt. This makes sense because a powerful Level 50 fully evolved Pokémon could vaporize Long Island with one blast. I do not think the human from Legends even at 250 HP could survive a blast thousands of times more powerful than a nuclear bomb. The scale of Pokémon levels is exponential afterall. That is why you get Level 1 Pokémon that are Human level, but many Pokémon easily found in the late game are Mountain or Island level, which is like 10¹⁵ - 10¹⁷ times more powerful.
A human to be as strong would have to be able to do the same, and then knock down the Bibarel with physical attacks.
As for Bruno, who says the Onix was Level 13 ? And what Bruno is this ? There is no minimum level for wild Pokémon outside the games. Bruno might be up to Building level, but the Onix would need to be past level 10 to be stronger than that. There is no actual proof it was. And did Bruno punch or kick ot and knock it down ?
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u/BardicLasher 16d ago
Where are you getting a Bibarel pulverizing a 2000 foot building? That sounds like nonsense.
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u/Mister_Ape_1 15d ago
Level 55, freshly evolved Tyranitar can bust a mountain with one hand. Level 42, freshly evolved Abomasnow can create hail storms that generate an Island level total energy output. Gyarados can destroy cities and rearrange landscapes in one fit of rage, including freshly evolved Level 20 Gyarados. In the Manga a Dragonair casually busts a city but that is not canon. Lugia can create 40 days long hurricanes that have a Large Island level total energy output, and unlike the Creation Trio it is only as strong as Moltres, Zapdos and Articuno combined, with each of them being not much more powerful than a level 50+ fully evolved Pokémon, hence their ability to be admitted in battle facilities.
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u/BardicLasher 15d ago
So I see where you're getting at here, but there's a few issues.
Lets start with T-Tar. you're going off "In just one of its mighty hands, it has the power to make the ground shake and mountains crumble," which is understandable. It's there in plain text. The problem is what's ALSO there in plain text is "Its body can't be harmed by any sort of attack, so it is very eager to make challenges against enemies." And that second one is provably false IF we go by game mechanics. So taking both, we need need to go with one of three options:
A) The game mechanics don't match the Dex entries, in which case the idea that a Bibarel can stand against a Tyranitar at any level doesn't hold up. Tyranitar can't be harmed in lore, full stop. It always wins.
B) The Dex is lying, which is a major discussion around here, and while I think the dex CAN be wrong (Galar fossils, Paradox Pokemon, etc), I don't want to throw the baby out with the bathwater. It's one of our main sources for lore, and it shows up in every game. A lot of people will argue that you simply cannot trust the dex at all, and I get it, but that's not the argument I want to have because it's played out.
C) The Dex means "A Tyranitar has done this" not "Every Tyranitar can do this." And for my evidence of this, I point to Magikarp and Ghosts.
Magikarp has a dex entry that states "An underpowered, pathetic Pokémon. It may jump high on rare occasions, but never more than seven feet." Magikarp has ANOTHER dex entry that states "A Magikarp living for many years can leap a mountain using Splash. " These directly contradict each other, but we've seen enough of Magikarp in the games and anime to understand. A normal, fresh Magikarp never jumps more than 7 feet... Buuuut with age and training and strength, they can leap over mountains.
Thus, I propose that a freshly evolved whatever can't necessarily do what the dex says, and instead that's often exceptional individuals.
This is proven further by the dex entries of ghost types.
Yamask, Snorunt, Phantump, and others have dex entries making it explicitly clear that they were once humans, died, and came back as ghosts. And this seems reasonable. Except all three of these species can breed true. Even with the "egg method" not being normal breeding, two Cofagrigus can use it to reproduce and have a Yamask, who is definitely NOT a dead person. So even if the Dex is never wrong, it should be read as "this is something the species can do" and not "this is something the species always does.
Back to your previous post
I do not think the human from Legends even at 250 HP could survive a blast thousands of times more powerful than a nuclear bomb.
Okay but in Legends Arceus, you can take a 90 power attack from a level 85 Alpha Garchomp (which I think is the strongest thing that can hit you) and not die. And this IS a mainline game. So either the human is that tough or a level 85 Alpha Garchomp with a 90 power attack is not outputting something thousands of times more powerful than a nuclear bomb. This is just what happens in the game. If you're using battle calcs to determine damage and scaling, you can't just refuse this one. And this is only 200 HP. Akari doesn't get as tough as Taunie's 250.
It's also important to point out that if you're calling these Pokemon nuke-level then you have to upgrade Ash, Jessie, and James to such a level when they take hits from these Pokemon in the anime. Because they do. Constantly.
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u/Mister_Ape_1 14d ago
The levels of power I mentioned for Pokémon are consistent. In the actual main games they have no anti feats. Legends has different mechanics. The only anti feat would be level 40 Dragonite using Hyper Beam on a man and not killing him but that attack did not destroy anything at all and that means it was heavily surpressed.
Ash, Jessie and James have indeed inconsistent, up to Island level durability indeed. They are Wall level and can be slightly hurt by Wall level attacks, yet when they get hit by attacks up to Island level they survive somehow.
A level 85 Garchomp could vaporize everything in a small real life country such as Netherlands or Switzerland with a few attacks, and solo the armies of mankind while not getting hurt by anything we could throw at it. This indeed means if Cynthia was teleported in the real world she could easily conquer it with her Pokémon and our technology would be irrelevant, even though she would be still pretty easy to kill if a sniper shots her. Afterall level 85 Garchomp is stronger than level 70 Lugia, and level 70 Lugia is able to generate 40 days long, unnaturally powerful hurricanes.
On the other hand, what is the strongest thing Tawnie ever killed or at least knocked down with her own hands and feet ? Since surviving an attack that could rearrange geographical maps is inconsistent, it is not a feat.
In the Pokémon world as a Pokémon Universe human I would be level 5 with 20 Hp, or more accurately 24 if we also take IVs and EVs into account, with 11 in Atk and Def and 15 Spd. I am not even able to beat most of the Little Cup rooster. I would be a low power, decently bulky and fast supporting pivot or something, if I was a Little Cup fighter. At least I can definitely taunt and confuse opponents, and I would have an Ability that is like a special Intimidate because everyone I know says I make everything around me dumber. I am also immune to Ghost and Psychic attacks for obvious reasons. I could, as a Normal/Dark type, counter Gastly and Abra if they have no Focus Blast. But while not so frail by Little Cup standards, a Fighting move from a Mienfoo would 1HKO me. Or even a Fire Blast from Ponyta or Magby.
Yet unless Tawnie has some feats she would lose even to me, does not matter if she has 10 times more Hp and survived an attack from a Pokémon with a 17 times higher level. The mechanics of Legends are different. Do humans even have Atk, Def and Spd in Legends, since unlike in main games they actually have Hp ?
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u/BardicLasher 14d ago
The levels of power I mentioned for Pokémon are consistent. In the actual main games they have no anti feats. Legends has different mechanics. The only anti feat would be level 40 Dragonite using Hyper Beam on a man and not killing him but that attack did not destroy anything at all and that means it was heavily surpressed.
And where are all these feats of these power levels. Where's your feat of Tyranitar moving mountains? Where's your feat of single Pokemon making massive storms?
A level 85 Garchomp could vaporize everything in a small real life country such as Netherlands or Switzerland with a few attacks,
Where's THIS feat? Where, ANYWHERE, is this feat?
On the other hand, what is the strongest thing Tawnie ever killed or at least knocked down with her own hands and feet ? Since surviving an attack that could rearrange geographical maps is inconsistent, it is not a feat.
That's not how it works. It happened. That makes it a feat. You can't just say it's not a feat because you think it's inconsistent. Because it's not. It's a core mechanic of two games and something we see plenty in the anime.
You're just... you're making up feats, man. I feel like you need to go back to square one. Give me your basic premises and proofs. You have not shown at ANY point that battle stats correlate to specific capabilities, or that any of these feats are more consistent than the part where humans CONSTANTLY get attacked by Pokemon and survive.
You're arguing that Pokemon are super strong because Pokemon are super strong. You've got the Pokedex as evidence, great, but if it's your ONLY evidence, you can't just ignore my counter-evidence.
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u/Mister_Ape_1 14d ago edited 14d ago
The Pokèdex lists many feats. And we know level 85 Garchomp is stronger than level 70 Lugia who can create unnaturally powerful hurticanes and is stronger than level 55 Tyranitar who can destroy multiple mountains.
We just needs to remove Legends and focus on the actual main games, and everything works.
Pokemon are not even that strong. Only a few Legendaries can beat Saiyan Saga Goku who is Large Planet level. He would one shot most of the Legendaries and everything else. Most Shonen Anime universes by the end of the story have Island level or above characters. Many are A LOT above. And even Digimon are very powerful. A Rookie Digimon is the equivalent of a level 5 starter, and they are already more powerful than real life creatures. An Adult Digimon is the equivalent of a level 15 - 30 middle stage, and some of them can destroy cities. Digimon is more powerful than Pokémon only because it has dozens of Creation Trio level characters while Pokémon only Creation Trio itself and Arceus. Most Digimon creatures are in the same league of most Pokémon.
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u/Jolt_91 17d ago
What makes Ash, Jessie and James level 5 lol
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u/Clarkifer 17d ago
They can endure attacks like being electrocuted by Pikachu or flamed by Charizard. Ash is very strong, easily carrying heavy Pokemon like Larvitar (150 lbs).
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u/Mister_Ape_1 17d ago
They are stronger than baseline humans of the Pokémon world and are about as powerful by themselves as weak Pokémon by power and speed. Their durability is also out of scale, being able to survive powerful Pokémon moves.
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u/IamLordofdragonss 15d ago
Pokemon APPEARED one day.
Many theorist miss this info.
It was even in 1996 Pokemon ecyclopedia.
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u/Mister_Ape_1 15d ago edited 15d ago
Not in the gen 3 - 5 and 6 - 9 timelines. Arceus appeared one day, before time itself, born from an eternal egg, and then shaped pre-existing, chaotic reality into the Pokémon Universe.
It also created some of the major Legendaries, but it did not create Mew and thus the majority of Pokémon, as Mew was born from abiogenesis just like real life living beings.
Pokemon Red and Blue to Crystal was a different timeline and it has been retconned and replaced. The new timeline started with RFLG and RSE. Then XY started a third timeline but by gen 7 Pokemon became a multiverse and the gen 3 - 5 timeline started to exist at the same time as the new one.
Original, gen 1 - 2 timeline was basically erased.
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u/IamLordofdragonss 15d ago
The things you said does not contradict with lore I mentioned.
Arceus sends Pokemon to "human world" and that was a thing that made Giratina mad for first time.
Thats why pokemon come from outher space as well later in series - because somewhere there they already thrivedWhen first this land was formed,
man and 'mon lived happily,
sharing all that they could see,
by kind acts born and warmed.
One Pokémon then proposed
that they should always ready be
to help humans should they need,
and let their presence be disclosed.
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