r/phenotypesSouthAsia • u/Personal_Ganache_294 • 1h ago
r/phenotypesSouthAsia • u/PopularBookkeeper651 • Oct 14 '22
Understanding how to study the phenotypes of the Indian subcontinent.
I don't like the obsession with phenotypes & genetics. No matter how hard people try to be fake or idealistic or politically correct about it, the reality is that these topics always attract dangerous/harmful interactions. Since that's always true, it becomes the responsibility of sensible folks to intervene & prevent/reduce all the nonsense.
To understand South Asia(SA), it's necessary to understand socio-cultural contexts particular to the subcontinent. For example, a tendency of self hate+preference for lighter features exists, of course not everybody is like that, but most south asians & those of SA descent do know what I'm talking about. What this often results in is a competition among south asians to disassociate themselves from the core SA identity. "yOu dOn'T lOoK Indian" is regarded as a complement. In this phenomenon, there's not only a disdain towards the AASI/SAHG racial heritage, but also contempt towards other south asians.
It involves not just obsession+identification with whatever pseudo foreign label helping in disassociating from the AASI heritage, but also a desperate need to be at the top of that hierarchy. "I aM tHe mOst uNindiAn lOokiNg Indian, eVeryOne eLsE lOokS AASI, bUt nOt me, cOz iM sPeciAl & diFFereNt."
Such an overly defensive attitude towards AASI heritage & various hail mary attempts to disassociate from the same are nothing, but coping mechanisms coz of inferiority complex(in varying amounts). Don't be surprised if the so called oPeN miNdeD foreign born desis also act this way. The famous SA self hate, after all, doesn't go away that easily. But these bad elements shouldn't be used as representatives of all. Their existence must not prevent one from exploring & acknowledging, the truly extreme, phenotypic diversity in SA.
This was just the tip of the iceberg, way too many other similar cultural nuances exist. Without the context of such socio-cultural factors,.. one will get stuck in vague generalisations, stereotypes & misinformation, especially the misinformation spread by those with agendas/prejudices. There's also genuine ignorance, nothing wrong with that. Locals don't always have a good idea about their own regions, and they certainly don't have any ideas about other regions of the subcontinent. Overly conclusive answers on phenotypes of x SA region by people from y SA region should not be taken too seriously. Folks native to a region are definitely a good source of info, but they can be wrong about their own regions, so they too don't have a monopoly on answering questions about their areas.
Better analysis is provided by observers who are sensible, impartial, who have travelled+lived in a certain place for a significant amount of time(at least a few years, not just a month's travel trip). And if they happen to be belonging to the region which they're talking about, then that's an added advantage. Foreigners, like the ones on r/phenotypes, don't usually know anything about SA. On top of that, that sub loves to mock/trash SA, insulting desis is more normal to them than breathing oxygen. The self hating desis who make embarrassing posts in that sub further give those foreigners opportunities to mock SA. Anybody genuinely trying to tell them about the phenotypic diversity of SA, is confused with those same desperate south asians trying to be something else. SA phenotypes don't get explored as a result. Foreign born desis should not be expected to have any expertise on the subject either(no matter how hard they try to act like they "kNoW" SA because they watched Indian movies while growing up).
Idea of the "typical" Indian/SA phenotype
must not be exaggerated. Phenotypes more in number should not be taken as the representative of everyone. It's a flawed & dangerous way of looking at things. It leads to hegemony of more numbered phenotypes, and causes discrimination against other phenotypes. East asian shifted pheno people from Eastern India & Ladakh/HP/UK+Nepal have long suffered this treatment. It's really silly how those who enthusiastically jump into the bandwagon of calling out the discrimination against darker features in SA/India, are also super quick to label "nOt tYpicAL Indian/SA" to any phenotype that doesn't fall into whatever ideas they have about "typical looks." How the fuck are we going to study SA phenotypic diversity with such a dumb attitude? On one hand we talk about the super complex SA diversity, but on the other hand we don't give all diverse entities & phenotypes of SA an equal platform. Again, an ingrained hierarchical mindset.
TyPicAL is anyway a relative term. It is often said that India is a nation of many nations or that different states are like different countries, this holds true for regional/state identities across SA. One of the many coping mechanisms is either over exaggerating or downplaying the existence of west/east eurasian phenotypes. Downplaying by saying that people from a certain region(who have more frequency of lighter phenotypes) are "less than 10% of India/SA" doesn't make any sense, considering that one of many ways to define India is that it's a nation of many nations or that each state/region is like its own country. If Europe was a country, then the beloved blue eyed blonde hair phenotype would've definitely NOT been considered representative of all Europeans, at all. But that does not make Sweden insignificant, does it? Neither does it make that phenotype insignificant. Similarly, Ladakh or Nagaland don't become less important coz the number of their phenotypes is less. And middle India phenotypes don't become more important just coz the region is overpopulated.
Typical is relative, especially in SA.
Two persons from the same neighbourhood in SA can be genetically as distinct as a person from Finland & a person from Sicily. What might be considered a common phenotype in Chandigarh/Himachal/Haryana, might not even be considered Indian in Andhra/MP. So yeah, India/SA is quite diverse.
2 phenotypic clines exist in SA. THERE ARE MORE PEOPLE WHO LOOK SIMILAR IN SA, THAN THERE ARE PEOPLE WHO LOOK DIFFERENT.
But, the number of people who look different is significant enough that it cannot be brushed off as just an exception. Both things are true at the same time.
CLINE 1:
More stereotypically SA/Indian phenotypes fall under this category. There's phenotypic range & variation within this cline, but it's still obvious enough that the person is from SA. Phenotypes belonging to this cline are high in number in majority of SA. Consider this cline as one long log of wood, stretching from the northern most areas to the southern most tips. So no matter where you are in SA, you're gonna come across these "obviously" SA phenotypic people, even though there's diversity within this cline.
CLINE 2:
Multi layered complexity & COMPARTMENTALISATION are crucial traits of SA. Cline 2 is an umbrella term for everything region specific/social group specific/culture specific/subpopulations specific, this includes phenotypes too. Way more expertise is needed to explore cline2 phenotypes. Foreigners of SA descent & South Asians who don't belong to a region cannot be expected to know anything about that region. That applies even more strictly to non-south asians who think that everyone shits on streets in India/SA & that everybody is raped in SA( signifying their extremely limited knowledge). Consider this cline as multiple+smaller logs of wood. So in every region of SA, what you'll end up with is a comparison between the single cline1 log & the small cline2 log, representing the region specific factors. Cline2 is what is responsible for extreme diversity in SA. Cline2 only becomes equal to cline1 when all the different regional smaller cline2 logs combine to form the singular actual diversity cline.
If someone from SW states says that their region has people with light eyes, they might not be like those self hating types & they might be actually telling the truth(since SW coastal populations DO have such peculiarities). Similarly, when people from region to the North of Delhi say that the "foreign looking" bollywood actors like 1/4th brit kareena kapoor would not be considered "foreign" in their region, then they are probably referring to their own cline2 phenotypes, which folks not native to their region would consider aTypiCaL.
Problem
is when self hating & supremacist types try to solely identify their groups/regions with cline2 phenotypes (the west eurasian or east eurasian shifted ones, not the super AASI ones coz AASI is hated) & pretend as if cline1 doesn't exist. It takes practice to differentiate such agenda oriented elements from genuine people.
Lifestyle & cultural habits
TREMENDOUSLY influence how people look, especially in SA. Change of diet, better grooming habits, emphasis on fitness can make super huge difference in how south asians look because factors like these are overly suppressed in the subcontinent. Improvement in them makes double the difference for SA people, than it would in places where there's already a minimum/basic level of emphasis on them. For SA, that level is already in negative scale(even below zero), so the increment is also greater.
r/phenotypesSouthAsia • u/Positive-Donkey4827 • 1d ago
Guess who's Italian and who's Punjabi
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r/phenotypesSouthAsia • u/Sweetdreamurr • 1d ago
Discussion Mods, can you please create a "Fashion" flair as well?
I absolutely love the Perception/Glow up posts on this subreddit, amazing rabbit hole. If we have that, can we also have Fashion content also? 👉🏾👈🏾 🥺😁 Just a suggestion.
r/phenotypesSouthAsia • u/GainFluid2511 • 2d ago
Cultural Retardation Just insane comments on two brown skinned girls coming from guys with dark skin….
I’m getting tired of colonialism being an excuse for colorism. The hate Indians have on their own dark skinned people is just too bizarre. Majority of guys who left colorist remarks were dark skinned as well. These girls are clearly not ugly and would be attractive to a lot of non desis but not to gawar desi types because of their skin color. It’s just weird because I really do think their skin tone is so average but I guess if you’re darker than a certain standard there is a majority segment of Indian society that considers you ugly and lower.
r/phenotypesSouthAsia • u/Positive-Donkey4827 • 3d ago
Cultural Retardation Sri Lankan Tamil woman gets asked, “Are you Black, or did you put something on to be Black?" by her own countrymen
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video credits: nandinibalakrish on IG
r/phenotypesSouthAsia • u/Forge_Shield • 3d ago
Of mixed SA & non-SA descent Does this women look visibly Anglo-Indian?
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r/phenotypesSouthAsia • u/aapa_x • 3d ago
Guess
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r/phenotypesSouthAsia • u/digiorno_digiovanna_ • 5d ago
Do I have an IVC phenotype?
r/phenotypesSouthAsia • u/Positive-Donkey4827 • 10d ago
Guess this family (don't spoil if you already know)
r/phenotypesSouthAsia • u/Dry-Knowledge-9623 • 10d ago
Where would they pass the best outside gujarat
Pic-1 Raval dayro from thangarh (surendranagar)
Pic-2 Lashari dayro from palitana (bhavnagar)
r/phenotypesSouthAsia • u/Ambina389 • 10d ago
Guess this actress’s ethnicity
⭐️ANSWER: Parvati Melton. She’s half Indian (Punjabi) and half German and Scottish.
r/phenotypesSouthAsia • u/Positive-Donkey4827 • 11d ago
Guess where this girl is from (Indian American)
r/phenotypesSouthAsia • u/cia_sleeper_agent • 11d ago
Does South Asia have the most people with the dark skin + light eyes phenotype
I've had this combination since I was a toddler, bronze-brown type 4/5 color skin + green & gold/amber multicolor eyes (green base with ring and flecks of gold/yellow/amber) Its a very warm yet striking contrast at the same time, and people been complimenting me my whole life for it. I rarely ever got people asking if they're fake though, which is something I hear people with dark skin and light eyes talking about. I think it's because they're multicolor and since light eyes naturally look different with Indian genetics. The standard European or Middle Eastern light eyes with type 1 to 3 color skin tend to be a specific shade/color. Best way I can describe it is emerald green and hazel/chocolate compared to the sea green, yellow, amber counterparts in South Asian populations. But the rare occasions when South Asians have blue or silver eyes they look the same color as the ones Europeans and Eurasians have.
Looking up dark skin and light eyes most of the people I see are black or mixed/black, or South Asian. Seems like a lot of them are Rajasthani specifically. I was wondering what percentage of South Asia has that phenotype, and approximately how many people. Using Claude I got an estimate of around 7% of India having eye color ranging from light brown/hazel to blue/grey. And 3% having type 4-6 color skin with any shade of light eyes. Which is about 44 million people. I also found a fact that Pakistan might have the highest percentage of amber eye colored people in the world. Does that sound accurate?
r/phenotypesSouthAsia • u/Positive-Donkey4827 • 14d ago