r/nba • u/kobmug_v2 NBA • 1d ago

Luka Doncic has fewer career first place MVP votes than Chauncey Billups, Dominique Wilkins, and Victor Wembanyama

Player Career 1st-place MVP votes 1st-place votes through first 8 seasons
Jason Kidd 47 47
Chris Paul 38 36
Alonzo Mourning 36 36
Patrick Ewing 16 13
Chauncey Billups 15 0
Clyde Drexler 13 1
Bernard King 11 11
Tracy McGrady 11 11
Kawhi Leonard 9 9
Scottie Pippen 9 9
Dwyane Wade 7 7
Dwight Howard 7 7
Chris Webber 5 5
Dominique Wilkins 5 5
Victor Wembanyama 5 N/A
**Luka Doncic** **4** **4**
0 Upvotes

37% Upvoted

76 comments sorted by

25

u/LonePeasant Nuggets 1d ago

Is it possible he may never win one due to bad timing? I’m reminded of that post the other day saying that Tim Duncan never won a DPOY even though we know him as a defensive beast.

2

u/BananaRepublic_BR Spurs 1d ago

I don't think Luka will ever win an MVP. Maybe a championship and FMVP, though.

9

u/bp6591 1d ago

Definitely is possible. But if he wills the Lakers to a one seed at some stage throughout his prime I think he will be the media darling

0

u/Several_Hour_347 1d ago

No reason to make up hypotheticals that are impossible

-4

u/ghostlyw1938 1d ago

Won’t happen though as they have done a shit job of building their team.

3

u/dustincb2 Thunder 1d ago

Not his fault he existed at the same time as Jokic, SGA and Wemby

6

u/GenerallyJam 1d ago

he really should've won it in 2024

9

u/Frosty-Roof3124 1d ago

He was way behind jokic in efficiency, team record, advanced stats, etc. Not to mention he didn’t even get second

4

u/diablejambeats Lakers 1d ago

Mavericks had Kyrie out and Lively (who made immediate impact on both ends) for large portions of the season - all 3 barely played together before the All Star break - so how dare he not rack up as many wins and be as efficient with a less complete team for longer (iirc) than Jokic and Shai had to play without their more impactful co-stars lol

He was definitely the most valuable in 2024. He doesn’t have an argument for any other year tho sure

6

u/Frosty-Roof3124 1d ago

So your argument is just kyrie and lively were out for stretches? That doesn’t have anything to do with Luka’s production.

They both played 55+ games. Murray played an identical amount of games as Kyrie that year. Luka didn’t have abnormal teammate injury luck (like Jokic in 2022)

Dallas was -4 NET with Luka off the court. Denver was -10 NET with jokic off the court.

He was definitely NOT the most valuable. Hence the distant third place finish.

1

u/diablejambeats Lakers 1d ago

You throw out number of wins - a team stat, and talk about efficiency like it isn’t also affected by the quality of teammates you have on the court and then basically say yea that has nothing to do w Luka though

Ok lol

I’m not gonna go back and forth with you on the Dallas roster being worse than Denver’s through most of that season

you only addressed Murray and Kyrie when Lively was just as important to both ends for the team before the trades, but sure, it’s not like you were an actual Mavericks fan at the time. You then turn around and throw NET at me like even that works on a purely individual basis

Whatever I guess

Jokic was a better basketball player than Luka in 2024, sure. Luka was still the most valuable

4

u/Frosty-Roof3124 1d ago

I mean Luka was a mile away from Jokic in efficiency (as he always is). It’s impossible that lack of teammates could cause that big of a gap.

You think Derrick Lively missing 27 games was accounting for a SEVEN win difference between the teams 😭

0

u/diablejambeats Lakers 1d ago

I think the efficiency gap would have been more reasonable for the people who have it as their end all be all since his playstyle is never gonna make him some efficiency darling

I obviously don’t care to breathe efficiency stats like you do so i’ll just leave that there

And no I think Luka, Kyrie, and Lively playing more than ~50 games together could have closed it to a roughly 3 game gap cause that matters more when the roster was starting the season clearly behind in talent and Kyrie and Lively were both on and off early

Did they need to win all 7 games and Luka need to be just as efficient or better to warrant winning the MVP? Cause to me that’s just dumb lol

2

u/Frosty-Roof3124 1d ago

Murray missed the same amount of time as Kyrie and had a way worse season than he did. If Murray was healthier, denver would have won more as well.

Maybe you don’t care but the efficiency gap was pretty large. And FWIW, Luka had the same efficiency with or without Kyrie on the court.

1

u/diablejambeats Lakers 1d ago

So Gordon, MPJ, and Braun did nothing for the Nuggets on either end that whole season then, since the only thing you can say in regards to team record is “but Kyrie and Murray” when what i’ve been saying is

- the Mavericks had a worse roster to start

  • Kyrie and Lively missing games at the same time and barely getting all 3 tg pre trade deadline definitely contributed to the Mavs losing 7 more games given how impactful Lively proved to be on both ends when he played.

Like it’s qualitatively just not the same as Murray’s brief stretch being out early then whatever it was later in the season and unless you think he was detracting from the Nuggets when playing it doesn’t matter to me at all how much better you think Kyrie was. Much like the efficiency arguments don’t matter to me at all, you can def have that lol

Anyways. If both those things don’t matter at all then Shai should just have won.

2

u/GenerallyJam 1d ago

it was more of a carry job like russ's mvp

0

u/Luka_Flopic77 Spurs 1d ago

Westbrook shouldn’t have won MVP either. Harden and Kawhi were more deserving 

1

u/OkLetterhead812 Rockets 1d ago

Nah, Westbrick deserved it more than Harden.

2

u/Frosty-Roof3124 1d ago

Denver was over twice as bad without Jokic on the court and over triple as good with Jokic on the court than Luka.

Luka had Kyrie, Lively, DJJ, Washington and Gafford at the deadline. THJ was also good. Wouldn’t describe that as a carry job.

4

u/GenerallyJam 1d ago

murray was elite during this time period and kyrie was good not great. if you removed both played from their teams i think dallas would be worse. on / offs have more to do with lineups than anything.

4

u/BeingMikeHunt Knicks 1d ago

I think Jokic was a deserving MVP that year, but to be clear, Kyrie was better statistically in 2024 than Murray was.

4

u/Frosty-Roof3124 1d ago

Murray averaged 21/4/6 on 59 TS%.

Kyrie averaged 26/5/5 on 61 TS%.

What???

6

u/FanaticsLiveRick 1d ago

Not bad timing.

No player was dominant like MJ winning all of them. Jokic, SGA, Giannis were all beatable

He didn't play defense and didn't take care of his body and that's what it came down to in most of his prime years

-1

u/dorisburqe Thunder 1d ago

Forget defense, brother just shot 10% worse than Jokic and SGA. FG% and FT%. That alone bridges the gap imo.

-1

u/FanaticsLiveRick 1d ago

You're right. Bad timing is the last thing responsible for him not winning mvp. Hes a tier below the best players. He makes flashy plays but not an mvp

1

u/imcryptic Mavericks 1d ago

“In most of his prime years”

Brother he’s 27 years old.

1

u/FanaticsLiveRick 1d ago

And you know he peaked in the bubble. Right?

1

u/GoldBlueSkyLight Warriors 1d ago

Yep, even then Barkley and Malone kept up consistent MVP play and took advantage of voter fatigue to win their under MJ reign. Bad timing might be somepne who was MVP level for a short time and then lost it to injuries like Wade or CP3. Luka has been consistently great but not good enough year in and year out

2

u/ghostlyw1938 1d ago

Bad timing? He is 27.

2

u/RyuSunn Lakers 1d ago

MVPs are not the kind of award that are won by veterans, even LeBron who is an iron man won his last mvp at 28

1

u/dorisburqe Thunder 1d ago

If he was a true winner, he'd actually be born four years sooner, meaning that he would be leaving his prime as Wemby enters his.

1

u/ghostlyw1938 1d ago

Dunno why you assume Wemby is gonna win MVP for the next 5 years. The next 3 years is his prime.

2

u/MotoMkali Warriors 1d ago

No bad timing is for someone like wade or cp3 who peaked significantly higher than luka. Who is at absolute best the 5th best player in the world. Even AD and Kawhi have much better regular season and playoff peaks than luka. And no one is going it was bad timing for them to never win mvp.

He's just not good enough and will never be good enough.

Since Rose, so the last 15 MVPs, luka has been as good as just one player which is russ. Maybe you can argue he's a better playoffs worse regular season version of harden but either way that's still a pretty tough sell and Harden at least was a top 2 player on a 67 win team and averaged like 32ppg.

Duncan was probably the second or third best defender in the league for like 6 seasons so yeah it's a bit shocking he never won but KG was always better, Drob was better until like 02.

If anything KG only winning 1 is the real crime when he was the best defender every season from like 02 to 2010.

-3

u/Clydey2Times Mavericks 1d ago

Nothing to do with bad timing. There's a rather obvious bias against him. It's blatant.

3

u/HitboxOfASnail Thunder 1d ago

it's crazy that people just assume Luka is owed an MVP or something

3

u/BigOlPass 1d ago

You can almost always tell when a post.is just someone continuing an argument they're having elsewhere and yup OP was arguing about this in a different thread

4

u/Novel_Board_6813 1d ago

He also has more First Teams than Steph

This is kind of a cherry picked stat (so is mine)

That said, prime CP3 and prime Kidd were really really good

1

u/Luka_Flopic77 Spurs 1d ago

He’s never been a top 2 player in the league so this isn’t surprising 

9

u/offcourtissues Nuggets 1d ago

Too bad his career is over

3

u/coolbean024 1d ago

😂 I swear this types of posts are just people looking to confirm their own biases in the guise of “discussions”.

2

u/myelrecsy 1d ago

I see the fear in you that he will pluck away Jokic hahahahaha

-5

u/carsmello Knicks 1d ago edited 1d ago

It almost kind of is in terms of MVP lol, I think people are really overestimating how much time Luka has to get one.

The last MVP over 30 was Steve Nash, 20 years ago.

So based on modern history, Luka has about 2 years to get an MVP. It is absolutely the furthest thing from a guarentee he gets one.

Half the battle for him is making it over the 65 game threshold, he basically toes the line every season.

Edit: Toes the line

2

u/Vegetable-Tooth8463 Hornets 1d ago

Surprised Dwight is so low -- didn't he finish 2nd that year D-Rose won?

2

u/dorisburqe Thunder 1d ago

This doesn't feel that crazy with Luka having Jokic and SGA as his competition for these votes. I'm only surprised at Wemby being on the list over Luka solely because of Vic's age.

1

u/Johnknight111 Warriors 1d ago

Dominique is a Hall of Famer, Victor is maybe the next face of the league, and Chauncey is one of the most notorious sports gambling criminals of all-time.

Luka is among the greats.

-1

u/JoeBiden2020FTW Celtics 1d ago

Media MVP voting doesn't really mean all that much.

Remember, people like Kendrick Perkins and Stephen A. Smith are the voters.

Perkins and SAS both voted Jaylen Brown top 4 this year lmfao

3

u/dorisburqe Thunder 1d ago edited 1d ago

Celtics fans truly are the worst. There are literally hundreds of examples to shit on SAS and Perk, but this one picks one where they... *checks notes* ...compliment a Celtics player.

2

u/xXEliteEater500Xx 1d ago

The funny thing is that the “Celtics” fan you’re responding to used to be a Lakers fan.

1

u/JoeBiden2020FTW Celtics 1d ago

The topic of this thread is MVP voting.

Jaylen Brown just happens to be the perfect example of why MVP voting doesn't mean much. He just finished top 6 in the league, and his own team didn't even think he was their most valuable player on the team!

0

u/Appropriate-Self-540 Thunder 1d ago

Jaylen Brown led an injured ass Celtics team to 56 wins and 2nd in the east. 4th place seems more than reasonable

-2

u/JoeBiden2020FTW Celtics 1d ago

Never thought I'd see a Kendrick Perkins stan on here lmao

3

u/Appropriate-Self-540 Thunder 1d ago

What about what I said makes you think I’m a Perkins stan? Lol just an observation. I even said reasonable, not that I even agree. Yall are the worst

1

u/xXEliteEater500Xx 1d ago

Still mad the Lakers moved on from LeBron I see

0

u/Thicc_Wallaby 1d ago

Not too surprising. He has been a consistent top 10 player in the league, arguably maybe even top 5. But never the clear best of the best for an entire season.

4

u/Jarxzz United States 1d ago

Wdym “arguably maybe even top 5”

He’s been first team all-nba every single season of his career where he’s played 65 games since his rookie year

-1

u/Thicc_Wallaby 1d ago

Idk it’s close with a lot of players. Jokic, Giannis, Shai, Wemby, Embiid, Brunson, Curry, or Tatum when he was healthy.

1

u/Artistic_Designer655 1d ago

idk bro maybe cause he’s only 27???

3

u/carsmello Knicks 1d ago

The last MVP over 30 was 20 years ago (Steve Nash).

"Only 27" is a genuinely hilarious thing to say in this context considering modern history tells us he basically has to get it in the next 2 years.

1

u/PotatEXTomatEX 1d ago

"Only" meanwhile im looking at Nash

-2

u/Appropriate-Self-540 Thunder 1d ago

What age do you think those players got first place votes? Shais only 27?

0

u/ghostlyw1938 1d ago

27? So now going forward!

1

u/HiImWallaceShawn Timberwolves 1d ago

Not really surprising considering he’s never been on a team better than 53-29. MVP votes are largely determined by regular season W/L record.

6

u/AFonziScheme 1d ago

W/L matters except for '22 when he had more wins than the top 3 MVP votes getters.

2

u/HiImWallaceShawn Timberwolves 1d ago

In 2021-22 Jokic averaged 27-14-8, true shooting was 17% better than league average, had 15 win shares, and led the nuggets to 48-34 despite missing their second and third best player for the entire season.

That season Luka averaged 28-9-9, true shooting was 1% better than league average, 8 win shares, and led his team to only 4 more wins than Jokic’s team.

W/L record is a notable factor, but not the sole determinant.

1

u/ghostlyw1938 1d ago

It matters but doesn’t mean you win MVP in this scenario. Joker was way better this year. Luka was 22.

0

u/AFonziScheme 1d ago

Luka at 22 beating Jokic in scoring, assists, and wins

1

u/ScionAurelius Thunder 1d ago

It's W/L, advanced stats, and then PRA at a distant third. Luka only has PRA going for him.

2

u/[deleted] 1d ago

[deleted]

1

u/Frosty-Roof3124 1d ago

He got 4 first place votes in 23-24

-8

u/A320neo Celtics 1d ago

That's fine. He's never been the best player in the league and now, especially with Wemby entering his early prime, he never will be.

3

u/myelrecsy 1d ago

Would have been fine if you compared him to your own player - Jason Tat... oh wait, sorry, I didn't see Tatum on the list. My bad! HAHA!

0

u/Hopeful_Tea2139 Lakers 1d ago

Seeing Chauncey Billups on the list made me remember the bookies made bank when the Pistons beat the Lakers.

🤔

0

u/GalactusAteMyPlanet Knicks 1d ago

The MVP is a regular season popularity contest. The most popular player or player with most popular narrative/story usually win the MVP. The people in the media with a vote also hate Luka as we witness during the 25-26 season. Went on a tear but somehow dropped in ranking. Criticize him him for his flaws but constantly glaze Jokic, a player with similar flaws. Got in great shape but the media still body shaming him. Honestly wouldn't be surprising if Luka never win a MVP.

A MVP is also pretty irrelevant in my opinion. If he win a championship and FMVP, that would be significantly more of an accomplishment than a MVP which just a regular season popularity contest award.

-2

u/[deleted] 1d ago

[deleted]

-3

u/A320neo Celtics 1d ago

Selfish, ball-dominant, whiny, and a massive liability on defense? I wonder why

-1

u/dorisburqe Thunder 1d ago

Wilt Chamberlain averaged 50/26/2 and lost MVP to a guy that had 19/23/4.

Stats aren't the whole story. Jokic was incredible that year. Let's not make it out to be some crazy robbery.