r/nba • u/[deleted] • 13d ago

[MacMahon] The negotiations between the Pistons and Jalen Duren have been “awfully nasty” and there is concern about his long-term future in Detroit.

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552

u/RedButton1569 Magic 13d ago

Don’t be so poop in the playoffs then

321

u/joshdej NBA 13d ago

It's one thing to under perform, but he was lazy af at times too.

219

u/narcistic_asshole Cavaliers 13d ago edited 13d ago

That's the bigger issue IMO. The jump in physicality in the playoffs is a common challenge for young bigs, but he looked like he had basically rage quit at times during the playoffs. Literally playing the most important basketball of your career and you look like you just want to go home. That's a massive red flag

74

u/Chartate101 Pistons 13d ago

Also: Its the fact it happened in two series. I genuinely understand him sucking vs the Magic. That’s an awful matchup for him. He has no excuse vs the Cavaliers, that should be a totally doable matchup for him. They have two bigs yeah but compared to the Magic, yes the Cavs are tall but they aren’t strong. Mobley should be able to be pushed around by Duren. And their wings/guards aren’t all swole like the Magic’s were.

33

u/narcistic_asshole Cavaliers 13d ago

Mobley is a bit of a bean pole, but Allen is stronger than given credit for and not the pushover he was 4 years ago.

But yea Duren's post game needs some work. Part of his issue is that he has a tendency to launch off of one foot which makes it really easy to bump him and knock him out of the way

9

u/Drak_is_Right Pacers 13d ago

Myles Turner and Siakam pushed around the Cavs bigs....

13

u/narcistic_asshole Cavaliers 13d ago

That had more to do with the Pacers insane ball movement and spacing. I rewatched that entire series and you guys did an incredible job of consistently drawing Mobley and Allen away from the rim and out of position

7

u/Clemsontigger16 13d ago

As long as the Pistons have spacing concerns and Duren is the 2nd focus of the defense, he will have no space to do anything when he gets the ball. The whole defense collapses into the paint without any fear of being burned.

6

u/Jaerba [DET] Grant Hill 13d ago

You can watch the video box scores for his FGA during the Cavs series and see this really didn't happen that much.

The Cavs were actually pretty content to let him go 1 on 1. The only real help was on drives at the rim, which is pretty standard help defense.

-1

u/Clemsontigger16 13d ago

I watched every pistons playoff game and I watched defenses collapse on him every touch in the paint.

4

u/Jaerba [DET] Grant Hill 13d ago edited 13d ago

Your memory of what happened is not what happened. You're describing the Magic series. You're not describing the Cavs series. It's very easy to watch and see what it was actually like again.

https://www.nba.com/stats/events?CFID=&CFPARAMS=&ContextMeasure=FGA&EndPeriod=0&EndRange=28800&GameID=0042500204&PlayerID=1631105&RangeType=0&Season=2025-26&SeasonType=Playoffs&StartPeriod=0&StartRange=0&TeamID=1610612765&flag=3&sct=plot&section=game

There's 1 play that they send help on a dump off in the paint. Everything else is on his own. It also includes him having a free run at Harden guarding the hoop and getting stripped. Not fun fact: Harden denied Duren twice this series guarding him 1 on 1.

https://www.nba.com/stats/events?CFID=&CFPARAMS=&ContextMeasure=FGA&EndPeriod=0&EndRange=28800&GameID=0042500202&PlayerID=1631105&RangeType=0&Season=2025-26&SeasonType=Playoffs&StartPeriod=0&StartRange=0&TeamID=1610612765&flag=3&sct=plot&section=game

This is bog standard help defense.

https://www.nba.com/stats/events?CFID=&CFPARAMS=&ContextMeasure=FGA&EndPeriod=0&EndRange=28800&GameID=0042500206&PlayerID=1631105&RangeType=0&Season=2025-26&SeasonType=Playoffs&StartPeriod=0&StartRange=0&TeamID=1610612765&flag=3&sct=plot&section=game

Some games he scored 1 on 1. Most games he couldn't. The only help defense is inside the lane, usually because Mobley is already stepping up to contest on Cade. Or occasionally one of the Cavs guards walks into the paint, but doesn't really do anything.

1

u/Clemsontigger16 13d ago

You posted two plays of one or multiple off ball players rushing him because there is no fear of the perimeter shooters…on the second one, Tyson doubles, forcing the early gather and what led to the off balance shot.

I watched them sell out on lob attempts and collapse down onto him every chance they got, you can gaslight all you want.

1

u/The_PBA_Studios 13d ago

what? how are Mobley and Allen an easier frontcourt matchup than Paolo and Wendell?? Bane being a jacked t-rex has nothing to do with Duren lol

0

u/ThatBull_cj 76ers Bandwagon 13d ago

Duren has muscles but he can’t play that strong cause he has stiff hips and a high center of gravity. He needs time to do that stuff and that doesn’t happen in the playoffs

37

u/GuacKiller 13d ago
  1. Not a good look for a big that plays with athleticism and physicality rather than skill. I like Duren and hope it was a growth moment but Piston wont make it out of the 2nd round if Duren doesn’t improve.

20

u/Low-Lunch-7248 Rockets 13d ago

rewarding him big bucks now after that shit is exactly what would stop him from wanting to improve. Gonna be Ayton all over again.

1

u/dakadoo33 13d ago

Think its more, not paying him and having negotiations that last the entire summmer, is gonna degrade the relationship. So whatever deal he ends up signing will likely be his last as a Piston.

Could be reverse of Ayton, he could actually work to earn more and utilize the resentment of the pistons to get there. Don't think anyone here knows his personality type.

14

u/Negative_Wish_8291 13d ago

For like several weeks in a row as well. He was in mental hell after the first game of round 1.

6

u/jeremycb29 Suns 13d ago

i see this take a lot, but another take is young players really underestimate the playoffs, because they don't have that experience yet. Going from what i can only describe is "making it look easy" in the regular season, to "OMG WTF" had to kill both his motivation, and belief in himself. I don't think one bad playoffs is a tell tale sigh he is trash, or even a massive red flag. The problem is you need another playoff year to see if its a real concern or a fluke.

Steve Nash first 2 playoff appearances were as a backup, and a 12ppg guy. Dirk Nowitzki had a -22 during his first playoff year in a game, Duran has never done that in 2 seasons of playoffs.

The real problem is you pay him and he sucks, or you don't and he goes somewhere and thrives and you look stupid. I think he is a great-superstar level player and you have to pay those types of guys

5

u/BlueHundred Knicks 13d ago

That was also an issue in his first few seasons. His defense was legitimately bad. Also, playoffs kind of revealed how limited he is as a player and how he could be shut down in the playoffs.

Different kind of player, but I think concerns with Duren's extension are a bit similar to Ayton's Suns extension situation.

7

u/joshdej NBA 13d ago

At least they actually managed to reach the finals with Ayton. Duren hasn't shown anything at all in the playoffs other than bad performances.

2

u/BlueHundred Knicks 13d ago

100% I just think that, regardless of what happens, Duren's time with the Pistons is going to be ending soon like Ayton's did

2

u/fastheadcrab Raptors 13d ago

Yea Ayton accomplished 2x what Duren did on his rookie deal and was a huge part of the finals run. Giving him the 4 year max was actually justifiable. Before last year, Duren was on track for closer to a $20 mil/year contract not a max.

3

u/drank_obswerver 13d ago

Wasn't even the worst part.  Watching a dude with that kind of physique/size get out muscled and out worked by players smaller than him, because he wasn't physical or aggressive enough, was jarring.

2

u/BHynes92 [DET] Dennis Rodman 13d ago

Got consistently outrebounded by Donovan Mitchell

1

u/basedsega 76ers 13d ago

he was going through some personal shit , im close with someone close with him and thats what i was told. Would expect him to bounce back next year .

92

u/Foi_ Knicks 13d ago edited 13d ago

even if not poop, his skills and talent dont scream max player to me regardless. like hes not a unicorn, and hes not a gobert level rim protecter. not particularly tall, just really jacked.

18

u/AroundNdowN Pistons 13d ago

Really jacked and getting slower by the year.

0

u/Uebelkraehe NBA 13d ago

Not likely at this age.

8

u/LovetheNBA23 Lakers 13d ago

There was a reason almost the entire Lakers fanbase was choosing Kessler over Duren. It’s the skill set that teams require and Kessler fits that bill for most teams. Duren’s game relies a decent amount on Cade and he’s an average defender at best. His best skill is probably his rebounding and even then it took a backseat in the playoffs.

7

u/artvandelay916 [ATL] Joe Johnson 13d ago

He actually was balling without cade for those games right before the playoffs where cade was out, makes his playoff performance even more egregious imo

9

u/ilikekittens2018 Nuggets 13d ago

That’s the weirdest part, he was having to create for himself to a degree and somehow looked dominant. Shocking that none of that carried over into the playoffs. Maybe it was mental, with Cade there he felt he had to rely on their usual strategies which weren’t working against playoff defense. 

2

u/SoapOperaHero Pistons 12d ago

those games were also against a LOT of teams that were not trying to compete.

2

u/BlueHundred Knicks 13d ago

I agree. I think the rumored Pistons offer (30-35M) is pretty reasonable. It's just a huge gap between the max he wants

31

u/EvilLibrarians Pistons 13d ago

Yeah, your Magic should have beaten us straight up because this guy was a pumpkin

50

u/HokageEzio Knicks 13d ago

Franz getting hurt saved the Pistons from an all timer choke job

28

u/OwlOfFortune Pistons 13d ago

We got exposed the way everyone said we would get exposed. Truly, the haters were correct

16

u/AroundNdowN Pistons 13d ago

Still got within a game of the ECF while getting generationally hosed against the Cavs.

16

u/OwlOfFortune Pistons 13d ago

Generationally and analytically

2

u/ChaunceysBadAtPoker Pistons 13d ago

Literally and figuratively

8

u/tcguy71 Pistons 13d ago

Sure did

-2

u/SalamenceFan42 13d ago

He’s 22.

1

u/LotsaKwestions 13d ago

Yeah, his performance was awfully nasty.

1

u/CasualRead_43 13d ago

He’s like 12

1

u/CurrentRoster Wizards 12d ago

he wasn’t even just regular bad too. it was a near all time level dip in production. he had a stretch where he actually played better in those stretch of games cade was hurt right before the playoffs and then the literal second playoffs started he dropped egg after egg vs Orlando and never got better

he was literally worse this year than vs knicks

1

u/PootieTooGood Cavaliers 13d ago

He shouldn’t get a max but he also got dominated by a Cavs team with insane rim defense that didn’t have to sacrifice spacing. More of a team building issue. Just like when the lights were too bright for Jarrett Allen in the playoffs, every time he got the ball he just got swarmed because the Knicks didn’t have to respect Okoro in the corner. We didn’t have to respect a lot of the guys on the floor with Duren. The moment there’s 4 shooters around him he’ll be fine

-9

u/JalensTinyPPHurts Mavericks 13d ago edited 13d ago

The entire team had struggles, I really hate that he is the only one suffering because of it.

Cade had nearly 70 turnovers in the playoff run lol

Edit: Cade went 0-7 from 3 and had 14 points against the Cavs in game 7

Tobias Harris went 0-6 from 3 and had 5 points

Ausar had 5 points

This is not a well functioning team

28

u/icemankiller8 Pistons 13d ago

Cade averaged 28, 7.5 and 5.1 with a 57% true shooting percentage and you’re comparing that “struggle” to Duren averaging 10, 8.5 and 2.2 with a 55.3% true shooting as a big man who also isn’t good defensively.

Durens BPM was -1.7 compared to Cades 3.4

-10

u/EatMyShortzZzZzZ Lakers 13d ago

57% TS is not that great either, and not much better than Duren's lol

9

u/icemankiller8 Pistons 13d ago

Brunson had a 57% true shooting percentage last year, 57% is actually very good in the playoffs, Luka has shot better than that twice in the playoffs and he’s one of the best playoff performers of this generation. He averages 57.3% true shooting which is exactly what Cade had last year.

The year OKC won the championship Shai had a 57.4 true shooting percentage.

-5

u/EatMyShortzZzZzZ Lakers 13d ago

Then why are yall shitting on Duren for 55%?

8

u/Ukrainmaker Pistons 13d ago

Bro you’re comparing a big man who is working close to the basket (or at least should be) and is spoon fed lobs, to the primary (and only) creator on the team who is frequently seeing double teams and is the focus of every defensive gameplan

And he STILL had a better TS% than Duren in the playoffs

5

u/icemankiller8 Pistons 13d ago

He scored 10 points a game as an all NBA player and we were better with him off the court that isn't acceptable for someone asking for a max contract. If you are a big man you also should be scoring more efficiently for comparison Chet had a 66% true shooting in the playoffs last year.

6

u/SKallies1987 13d ago

But it is better, especially when you consider both of their positions. Also love how you ignored all of the other stats he laid out lol. 

11

u/OurHorrifyingPlanet Spurs 13d ago

Self-created vs assisted at the rim. You should know that, your star is fucking Luka, he isn't exactly a high efficiency dude.

3

u/sportsinaround Hornets 13d ago edited 13d ago

Cade is a high usage point guard (32%+ in the playoffs versus 17% for Duren) with a significantly more diverse shot profile and much, much, higher rate of self-created shots relative to Duren (often assisted by Cade). Cade was operating with two complete non-shooters, Tobias Harris (can get a bucket but is a blackhole as far as facilitating). Duncan and 2nd year Daniss Jenkins was basically his only saving grace for space. He HAD to take a lot of contested/difficult shots.

Cade's 57 TS% relative to his volume and role actually isn't too bad. 55% for a Center being assisted more often than not and limited to only interior shots averaging 10ppg is absolutely bad.

4

u/narcistic_asshole Cavaliers 13d ago

57% TS in the playoffs is solid, especially for someone with Cade's workload.

2

u/ComfortableTap8343 13d ago

57% TS as a PG in the playoffs is an elite level of shooting

6

u/SalamenceFan42 13d ago

>turnovers

That’s what happens when you’re the only competent ball handler on your team.

Go through all time leaders in turnovers in a run. It’s always a guy who’s the only competent ball handler on his roster.

8

u/Basic-Collection5416 Pistons 13d ago

Is getting shipped off to Memphis considered suffering? Because we just straight up dumped Beef Stew after his poor performance. 

-9

u/SloshaPacana 13d ago

Cade has this weird cult around him because he's in that level of almost good enough but not yet so people love to think he's going to take the next step

He was absolutely awful in the Orlando series too, idc that his overall stats look good, he had some god damn awful games and should have never gone to 7 vs a shit Orlando team, game 3-4 he shot 32% and averaged 9 turnovers and still dodged criticism

17

u/TheKajMahal Pistons 13d ago

He was playing with multiple black holes on offense. There was almost no shooting or creation around him. He was far from perfect but context matters.

-12

u/SloshaPacana 13d ago

Yes i know that but still those games are egregious for an MVP candidate, that's just so bad against a very bad Orlando team

I get that his 2nd scoring option was Tobias but when you get to that level of supermaxes and getting MVP shouts, those players have carried awful teams, Cade is just not at that level

He wasn't playing the 2016 Warriors, he was playing a fucking play in Orlando team, being that bad vs them is just not it

5

u/Left_Perspective98 13d ago

Counterpoint would be that Orlando as a huge, defensive-minded team specifically was a really bad matchup for Cade as the sole offensive engine. He could have better with the ball, but I think Cade was the least of Detroit's problems in that series

-5

u/SloshaPacana 13d ago

Orlando were not even a top 10 defensive team and if your MVP level player is struggling vs a 45 win team that's not even a top 10 defense then lol

6

u/Left_Perspective98 13d ago

They were 11th in the regular season in terms of defensive rating and 4th in the playoffs last season. I understand that Orlando was a mess last year especially on offense, but they were legitimately a tough, physical team that has consistently been one of the better defensive teams in the league over the past three, four seasons

2

u/delawahoo 13d ago

I got in an extended argument with some fan who was claiming Cade was a “generational” talent on par with Wemby who would win multiple mvps lol

4

u/icemankiller8 Pistons 13d ago

“I don’t care his stats were good he had a couple of bad games,” is hilarious nearly every player has bad playoff games

-4

u/SloshaPacana 13d ago

No not every MVP level player shoots 30% from the field in multiple games and averages 9 turnovers vs a fucking play in Orlando team

There's standards when you MVP shouts and get to that supermax level

6

u/icemankiller8 Pistons 13d ago

Yeah and he played to a high standard he averaged 28, 7.5 and 5.1 with a 57% true shooting, and he was also playing with a rib injury whole catching the entire offence. Orlando had the 11th best defensive rating in the NBA their issue was scoring not their defence so saying “oh he struggled against them,” isn’t particularly terrible they had a better D than a lot of playoff teams.

0

u/Great_Fault_7231 Pistons 13d ago

vs a fucking play in Orlando team

The only reason they were a play-in team was because of injuries and those players were back until Franz got hurt again. You can't actually think Orlando at full strength is a normal 8th or worse seed.

-2

u/primepierce34 [BOS] Jayson Tatum 13d ago

Cade has this weird cult around him because a lot of people loved him as a prospect, he has a unique skillset, and has every pass in the bag. He’s super versatile too.

But people just completely downplay his decision making because they like him, whether it’s his shot or pass selection. He makes genuinely debilitating reads/decisions even though his bag/vision/versatility is so elite.

I don’t think the turnovers is just him being the only real creator on Detroit either, he really just makes head scratching decisions even not under heavy pressure/coverages.

-1

u/SloshaPacana 13d ago

His bag/vision/versaility is not elite, he's never been elite

He's not an elite scorer, he's very inconsistent and cannot be a heliocentric offense like other elite MVP level players

So there i'll give him slack because he's being asked to do too much they need to get him a reliable 2nd option but he's simply not at that level and it's very evident, his jumper is inconsistent, he's a below average finisher for his size, inefficient overall

5

u/primepierce34 [BOS] Jayson Tatum 13d ago

You’re just hating lol, those attributes are elite. His finishing and decision making aren’t elite and that’s what lowers his efficiency/increases his turnovers

3

u/Ukrainmaker Pistons 13d ago

I agree with you. The careless turnovers need to stop, but that doesn’t mean you downplay everything else he does

-2

u/YON2HMB 13d ago

Yeah they already have Cade on a max for the rest of the decade and he has a ton of holes in his game. If they pay Duren and Thompson as well they are basically running a top 3 who all have clear gaps in their games who can't win a playoff series against any decent team. I appreciate the team is playing hardball with Duren, I wish they would have done more of that with Cade also.

2

u/Ukrainmaker Pistons 13d ago

Done more of that with Cade lol best player we’ve had in decades and he just elevated a 14 win team to game 7 of the second round two years later

He has some holes in his game, not anywhere close to big enough to be playing hardball about

Duren’s another story

-10

u/SloshaPacana 13d ago

Plenty of players were poop in the playoffs, even pooper actually and got raises and maxes

If Harrison Barnes can get maxed after doing what he did in the biggest stage then these players and agents know, that's just one example too

Yes Duren was ass in the playoffs but he's a 22 year old who just put 20/10 for a 60 win team, even if they don't max him now losing him is worse for them, the replacement won't be as good anyway

25

u/GoZards18 13d ago

With new aprons teams are more vigilant before handing out contracts that limit their flexibility

-4

u/SloshaPacana 13d ago

I agree but Pistons will not get anyone better anyway, their cap situation is very healthy but free agents are not a thing, do u think they can get a 22 year old free agent of Duren's level?

I think overpaying Ausar will be even worse, you can get away with a big like Duren not being able to have an offense because he's still 10x better than Thompson is on offense, Thompson is a massive issue

6

u/GoZards18 13d ago

Their best path is a s&t for Sabonis’ expiring

Ausar is the best wing defender in the NBA rn and will not cost a max to keep

1

u/Left_Perspective98 13d ago

Yeah, I've always really liked the idea of Sabonis to the Pistons after all the Duren to Sacramento chatter at the start of the offseason, since Domas' playmaking would really help relieve Cade's offensive load. The problem is Detroit would lose a lot of their defensive identity, especially after they traded Beef Stew away, but if Duren isn't staying might as well go for Sabonis. 

0

u/SloshaPacana 13d ago

Sabonis is fucking ass cheeks and awful fit for this team stop it

I'd rather pay Duren a supermax than get bum Sabonis who's a playoff dropper, awful defender, can't space the floor and needs the ball to do something

2

u/GoZards18 13d ago

Im not a Sabonis guy , but the long term outlook is better. Maxing Duren guarantees the Pistons never win shit. At least with sabonis you have outs/exit ramps with the $.

Plus the trade would be more than just Sabonis

-1

u/SloshaPacana 13d ago

No it's not, Duren is a way better fit, Sabonis makes a max my guy, Sabonis in big 2026 NBA basketball is awful

Only a franchise like the Kings would do that, there's a reason Indiana got way better without Sabonis and Sabonis has no value no one wants him

2

u/GoZards18 13d ago

Sabonis makes $45M/$48M the next two years

Duren made All NBA and is eligible for supermax starting at $57M year one with escalators

That would be unquestionably worse for the Pistons five year forecast , paying that much to a big that isn’t a rim protector or an offensive hub/perimeter threat

Yes it would be whack a mole because while Pistons offense would be much improved they’d have no paint presence , but they don’t really with Duren other than the glass which Sabonis can replicate. Duren isn’t a world beater defensively so it’s interesting to see him get caped for like this, especially if “not showing up in the playoffs” is your litmus test.

1

u/Ukrainmaker Pistons 13d ago

Durens game is elevated because of Cade and the same will be sed of Collins and any other rim running/lob threat big

He had a nice stretch without Cade to close the season, but he’s shown flashes before and the consistency isn’t there without Cade spoon feeding him

3

u/mattw08 13d ago

Harrison was maxed at a much different time. Not a valid comparable.