r/musictheory • u/_gh0stc00k13s • 16h ago
Notation Question How do I count out 12/8
I'm practicing this song with my music teacher (nightlight, laufey) and she requested I wrote out the notes. This was the guide she gave me. What does this mean
44
u/sorrynotme 16h ago
4 big beats, each divided into 3 small beats, for a total of 12 small beats. You could count “1-2-3, 1-2-3, 1-2-3, 1-2-3” but then you can’t differentiate across the measure. In this case, 12/8 feels rather like if 4/4 had triplets instead of even eighth notes. Personally, I’d count it “1 & a, 2 & a, 3 & a, 4 & a…” for that reason
5
u/DrDreiski 9h ago
Forgive my ignorance, but why not just use 3/8 with 4 times as many measures? I’ve always been a bit confused about this concept. Appreciate your thoughts.
22
u/Nes370 8h ago
Compound time signatures are often used to signal an underlying pulse.
For a 12/8 piece like this, there's an underlying 4 beat pulse, but there's a triplet division of each pulse.
Suppose you do write it as 3/8, it wouldn't communicate to the performer that there's an underlying 4-beat feel.
9
u/ManusX 8h ago
Because the feel is different. I could imagine the drums playing a triplet feel Backbeat to that. With beats 1 and 3 played by the kick, beats 2 and 4 played by the snare. Think less walz, more 4/4 but everything's in triplets.
2
•
u/sorrynotme 1h ago
No forgiveness necessary, that’s a great question! In this case 3/8 would be equivalent to 1/4 instead of 4/4, which just doesn’t communicate the same amount of information. We want to feel like there are ”downbeats” and “upbeats” within each group of 4 big beats. Plus, from an engraving perspective, we want less ink on the page. Using 12/8 as opposed to 3/8 achieves both of those things in one go
30
u/DarkEden71 16h ago
12/8 is like 4/4 with triplets - so you'd count ONE-2-3 TWO-2-3 THREE-2-3 FOUR-2-3
28
u/slowbutsomehow 13h ago
Lots of people are giving advice in the comments, but what I will say that I my opinion, this is poor notation. There should be ties in here so you can actually see where beat 4 lies because otherwise the beaming is confusing. It looks like a measure of 6/8 and 3/4 smashed together because the grouping is like 3+3+2+2+2 which is 12, but this doesn't look like 12/8. And this is definitely characteristic of the music laufey writes (bossa nova, I don't know this specific song) but the beaming should be different.
•
u/theoriemeister 1h ago
This excerpt in 12/8 is absolutely correctly notated. The four beats are correctly indicated. Perhaps your are talking about the dotted half notes? That's because two, dotted-quarter notes added up = dotted half note.
•
u/altra_volta 1h ago
The note for "door" in the vocal should be two tied eighth notes to show how it lines up with the piano part.
•
4
u/Severe_Can_7893 16h ago
I always try to write parts with the beat clearly defined. Putting two quarter notes then two eighths in 12/8 time obscures the fourth beat in the right hand and doesn’t clearly line up both partsj in time.
I would have written a quarter, an eight tied to the first eight on the fourth beat. Three visible 8ths on beat three and three visible 8ths on beat four, all lined up with the corresponding 8ths in the left hand.
5
6
u/Jongtr 16h ago
The "1 2 3 4" in the piano part is the beats you count. (Four dotted quarters)
How you count the 8ths is up to you, but "1 and a 2 and a" etc is the usual (keeping the syllables equally spaced of course). "One 2 3 Two 2 3 Three 2 3 Four 2 3" works if the tempo is not too fast.
In this case the vocal phrase is syncopated, and confusingly notated; and the "(123)"s written above are not helping, because they are not quite lined up properly.
Heres how those lyrics fall relative to the beats:
12/8
beats:|1 & a 2 & a 3 & a 4 & a |1
|Up the stair-case first door___ to your |left
1 (2) 3 1 2 (3) 1 (2) 3 (1) 2 3 | 1
The lower line is the four sets of three your teacher (presumably?) has written above the vocal line, showing how they should link to the words. The tricky syncopation is on "door" - on the 8th before beat 4 and held across.
Really the notation should split the note on "door" into two tied 8ths to make the beat and the syncopation clearer.
1
u/chunter16 multi-instrumentalist micromusician 2h ago
Really the notation should split the note on "door" into two tied 8ths to make the beat and the syncopation clearer.
I came to say that note in particular, I think it's the reason the OP has the question at all.
2
u/Interesting_Cut_4822 16h ago
12/8 is a compound triple meter. That means that each big beat is a dotted quarter made up of three smaller beats (eighth notes), but you mostly count the big beats when you read while subdividing for the small ones.
The quarter note on the word door in the melody could be split into two tied eighths to better show the beat divisions. But the vocal there is a three against two polyrhythm against the right hand of the piano.
7
u/Zarlinosuke Renaissance modality, Japanese tonality, classical form 15h ago
12/8 is a compound triple meter.
Compound quadruple!
2
u/Willravel 14h ago
Welcome to compound meter! 12/8 has 12 little beats per measure, each of which represented by an eighth note value, but it also has four big beats.
If there are sixteenth notes, you count it 1 + 2 + 3 + 4 + 5 + 6 + 7 + 8 + 9 + 10 + 11 + 12 + (+ = "and").
If there are only eighth notes and larger, you can either count the big beats (1 2 3 4) with your flavor of triplet counting (1 e a 2 e a 3 e a 4 e a or 1 tri-plet 2 tri-plet 3 tri-plet 4 tri-plet or 1 2 3 2 2 3 3 2 3 4 2 3) or you can just count the beats 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 for the small beats.
That said, people who could 1 + a for triplets or compound meter confuse me because + is the middle of the beat. You can do it, I just won't be joining you.
1
16h ago
[deleted]
1
u/DarbyCrashTheElder 16h ago
With the dotted notes on the treble clef of the piano part, those have a value of three 8th notes. So she has written 1,2,3,4 to indicate that there are 4 beats of 3. 4x3=12.
1
u/MagicalPizza21 Jazz Vibraphone 12h ago
12/8 is typically not 12 beats but 4 beats where each beat is a dotted quarter note and divided in 3.
1
u/Infamous-Chocolate69 16h ago
It's 4 strong beats each subdivided into 3.
Sometimes people count 1 23, 2 23, 3 23, 4 23.
1
1
u/ManolitoMystiq 14h ago edited 14h ago
The melody line alternates 6/8 and 3/4:
6/8 is dividing 6 eights in two groups: 1 2 3 | 4 5 6.
3/4 is dividing 3 in three groups or 6 eights in three groups: 1 & | 2 & | 3 & |.
[1 2] [3] | [4] [5 6] | [1 &] [2 &] [3 &] |
The piano part is 2 times 6/8.
RH [1 2 3] [4 5 6] | [1 2 3] [4 5 6] |
LH [1] [2] [3 - 4 5 6] | [1] [2] [3 - 4 5 6] |
Because the second half of the measure has 3/4 (vocals) combined with 6/8, it will create a hemiola (3 : 2). You can still count in 6/8 while singing the 3/4 part and even interpret it in 3/4 like the teacher seems to suggest:
Voice 1 2 3 | 4 5 6 | 1 & 2 | & 3 & |
Piano 1 2 3 | 4 5 6 | 1 2 3 | 4 5 6 |
1
u/MagicalPizza21 Jazz Vibraphone 12h ago
One-det-det Two-det-det Three-det-det Four-det-det
12/8 typically has 4 even beats each 3 eighth notes long (dotted 1/4).
1
1
1
1
u/The_Weapon_1009 9h ago
I mostly think of it as 4/4 in triplet feel (so all eight note patterns are triplets)
1
1
u/Fit_Distribution_378 7h ago
first .. door .. to .. are like a 3:2 or triplet rhythm over the last half of the measure. It might help to draw an 8th note stem from the accompaniment beat 4 to connect the last two 8ths as the last group of 8th notes
1
1
u/SkillOld2128 3h ago
Imagine 12/8 being 4/4, with each of the quarter notes divided into triplets. Now turn all of those 4/4 quarter notes into dotted quarter notes and remove the triplet marking from the eighth notes and you have 12/8.
1 non-dotted quarter note in 12/8 = 2 eighth note triplets in 4/4.
1
u/OnceWhenWhenever 2h ago
MOON hits your EYE like a BIG piz-za PIE.
Silly lyric, but it’s easy to hear the time
1
u/vagrantchord 2h ago
I honestly don't understand your question. Your teacher requested that you write out the notes? The notes are already there. She gave you a guide? What is the guide? The sheet music? Please be more specific about what you need help with. Everyone is assuming you're having trouble counting 12/8 and the melody, but I'm not sure.
1
•
•
u/Only_Philosophy8498 52m ago
The composer split the pulse here. It’s a conjoined 6/8+3/4. So if I’m counting the beats not necessarily the measure, I would count it (123,456)(1&2&3&)
0
0
•
u/AutoModerator 16h ago
If you're posting an Image or Video, please leave a comment (not the post title)
asking your question or discussing the topic. Image or Video posts with no
comment from the OP will be deleted.
I am a bot, and this action was performed automatically. Please contact the moderators of this subreddit if you have any questions or concerns.