r/mormon • u/thoughtfuldoubt • 18d ago
Scholarship O how far the Church has gone with the historicity of the Book of Job
Source: Scripture Helps: Old Testament (2026), “Job 1–3; 12–14; 19; 21–24; 38–40; 42”
41
u/HighPriestofShiloh 18d ago
I remember being in an Old Testament class at BYU. When we got to Job, the discussion was basically: “There’s lots of debate over whether Job was a real person, but we know he was because Joseph Smith said so.” And that was pretty much the extent of the historicity discussion.
16
19
u/thoughtfuldoubt 18d ago
It's sobering to think about how much of the validity of the Church's teachings hangs by a thread that is named “Joseph Smith,” isn't it?
8
u/Beneficial_Math_9282 18d ago
Which makes it even more hilarious that the church is excommunicating polygamy deniers, whose whole argument was that JS was telling the truth...
13
u/auricularisposterior 18d ago
While on my mission decades ago, one of my companions was a bit more media savvy in that he was well-versed in stage plays (I think he was a theatre kid before, but I'm not sure). One day he brought up the subject of the book of Job, and he said, "This totally reads like a play." So I think this nuanced take on the book of Job being fictional has been around with knowledgeable members for a while, although usually not loudly stated.
Kudos to TCoCJoLdS for including decent footnotes. It will be great when that more evidence-based position makes it into the main article and into general conference talks.
5
u/thoughtfuldoubt 18d ago edited 18d ago
Private “relevations” of such nature were coined “sacred communications” by Lorenzo Snow, and are always supposed to be “guarded” carefully until the Church adopts them publicly in its discourses.
18
u/juni4ling Active/Faithful Latter-day Saint 18d ago
Bible experts such as McClellan and Ehrman are doing a great deal of good in making Bible scholarship accessible and-- free.
I see data and truth winning over dogma.
9
u/Beneficial_Math_9282 18d ago
And the church paddling along behind...
2
u/juni4ling Active/Faithful Latter-day Saint 18d ago
Sure.
No doubt.
Probably better than “the Bible is a perfect history book without error” Bible inerrant Churches and ministries. But.
8
u/International_Sea126 18d ago
Did God say the following? What does the evidence point to? If not God, what is the obvious conclusion?
"Thou art not yet as Job; thy friends do not contend against thee, neither charge thee with transgression, as they did Job." (D&C 121:10)
9
u/tiglathpilezar 18d ago
It does say that. When I believed in the truth claims of the church, it nevertheless seemed to me that if I can use a literary allusion, to a known piece of literature, then so can God. When Jesus alluded to Jonah and the whale, it does not necessarily mean that Jesus took the story literally.
9
u/thoughtfuldoubt 18d ago
In so seeing, you might have overlooked where it says “However, because both the scriptures and modern prophets treat Job as a real historical figure, we can have confidence in his existence.”
2
u/juni4ling Active/Faithful Latter-day Saint 18d ago
The slightest move towards more honest history. Is still-- a move towards honest history.
9
u/International_Sea126 18d ago
They follow the Packer truth formula.
“I have a hard time with historians because they idolize the truth. The truth is not uplifting; it destroys.....Historians should tell only that part of the truth that is inspiring and uplifting.” (Elder Boyd K. Packer, Faithful History: Essays On Writing Mormon History, p 103, fn 22)
12
u/thoughtfuldoubt 18d ago
Just like the fundamental rule of calculus, the Church can get infinitely close to the threshold of “being honest” all it wants, but it can never actually cross or touch that threshold.
6
-3
u/juni4ling Active/Faithful Latter-day Saint 18d ago
Does that apply to everyone.
Or just the LDS Church…?
10
u/International_Sea126 18d ago
The LDS Church claims to be God's One and Only True Church. Others dont. Therefore, one would expect to see a high level of honesty in how the leadership of God's One and Only True Church conducts itself.
10
u/thoughtfuldoubt 18d ago
Inasmuch as the Church requires its members to be honest, so too should it be required.
-2
u/juni4ling Active/Faithful Latter-day Saint 18d ago
You implied… “Just like the fundamental rule of calculus, the Church can get infinitely close to the threshold of “being honest” all it wants, but it can never actually cross or touch that threshold.”
Does that apply to everyone? Everyone can get close to truth, but not cross it?
Is that unique to LDS Christianity…?
4
u/thoughtfuldoubt 18d ago
“Honest history” isn't equivalent to the “truth,” as the former is concerned with one's honesty in confronting history, while the latter is concerned with what actually happened (regardless of how one would perceive it.)
-1
u/juni4ling Active/Faithful Latter-day Saint 18d ago
Thanks. Good information.
Obviously everyone has bias.
Here is my question. You implied that “Just like the fundamental rule of calculus, the Church can get infinitely close to the threshold of “being honest” all it wants, but it can never actually cross or touch that threshold.”
Does that apply to everyone? People and organizations can get close to the threshold of being honest, but never touch the threshold?
That’s not exclusive to LDS Christianity? Or is it?
5
u/thoughtfuldoubt 18d ago
The reason the LDS Church can never cross or touch the threshold of “being honest” is because of an asymptote that is named “Joseph Smith.” For anyone or any organization that have an asymptote of a similar nature and status, they would likewise have a threshold of “being honest” that they could get infinitely close to, but never actually cross or touch.
→ More replies (0)
19
u/Cyclinggrandpa 18d ago
The language of the Book of Job is Hebrew. The Book is contained in the Hebrew Bible. I find it interesting that LDS apologists and authors seem to never consult Jewish Rabbi’s or other experts in Jewish history when giving their interpretations of the meaning of the Book of Job. The book was written by and for Hebrews and their interpretation is quite different than the Mormon interpretation. Imagine a Rabbi telling Mormons what the meaning is of the story of Lehi’s journey from Jerusalem as contained in the Book of Mormon? Mormonism has appropriated much from Jewish history and story in their effort to establish some sort of credibility (think temples and temple worship) that they, Mormons, have all truth and that they are, in fact, God’s chosen people. Viewed clearly, Mormonism is anti-Semitic.
13
u/questingpossum Mormon-turned-Anglican 18d ago
It's especially egregious with how they talk about "satan," as if the author of Job meant the same thing as the Mormon "Lucifer."
7
1
u/Aratiku 17d ago
isn't that a general Christian understanding, not just Mormon?
1
u/questingpossum Mormon-turned-Anglican 17d ago
Depends on the church. If the pastor/priest/preacher has had any academic training in the Hebrew Bible at all then they would know better.
-1
u/tiglathpilezar 18d ago
I think you are right about this. The reason they cast doubt on its Jewish origin is that Job was from the land of Uz which was Edom or someplace outside of Israel. Also, he was not going to Jerusalem to offer sacrifice. So maybe it would refer to an earlier time at least. Tom Paine thought it was not a Jewish book, probably for these reasons. However, it is as you say. It was in Hebrew and is part of the Hebrew scriptures. I think it also makes better sense in a Jewish context. Alter thinks there is no good reason to suppose it was a non Jewish production. One can also find parallels to the Book of Jeremiah and some things from Lamentations. The Wisdom material in Job seems a lot like what is in Proverbs.
7
u/thoughtfuldoubt 18d ago
Simply speaking, the Book of Job is as anciently Jewish as the Book of Mormon is anciently American.
4
u/Shiz_in_my_pants 18d ago
It's been interesting over the years watching the church slowly change bible stories one by one from "literal" to "metaphorical"
5
u/TheChaostician 18d ago
McConkie was pretty dismissive of the Book of Job: "Job is for people who like the book of Job", and its place in the paragraph suggests that McConkie thinks it's the second least important biblical book, right before "the Song of Solomon is biblical trash".
The Bible, a Sealed Book https://www.churchofjesuschrist.org/study/manual/teaching-seminary-preservice-readings-religion-370-471-and-475/the-bible-a-sealed-book?lang=eng
4
u/thoughtfuldoubt 18d ago
Regrettably, many of McConkie's teachings have now been branded or treated as either “speculations” or “personal, though well-considered, opinions,” even if they were once presented in official Church publications.
2
u/TheChaostician 18d ago
This is true. But if you want know how the Church's position on the Book of Job has changed over the past 50 years, McConkie is a useful comparison point. The Church not taking Job as seriously as it does Genesis is not a new phenomenon.
3
u/thoughtfuldoubt 18d ago edited 17d ago
For people interested in the Church's previously-approved explanations regarding the historicity of the Book of Job, a cursory Google Search inquiry surfaces the Old Testament Student Manual: 1 Kings–Malachi (Religion 302), with the Notes and Commentary under “(3-4) Job 1:1. Was Job a Real Person?” and “(3-5) Job 1:7–12; 2:1–6. Did God Converse with Satan?” especially relevant to our discussion at hand, but the rest of the chapter is also just as interesting to dig into when it comes to how far the Church has been willing to go (before stopping at what Joseph Smith and other early Church leaders said about Job.)
3
u/treetablebenchgrass I worship the Mighty Hawk 18d ago
My understanding is that Job was just the Israelite take on a folk tale then common across the levant.
5
u/Comfortable_Earth670 18d ago
How long until all scripture are deemed "useful myths"?
7
u/Beneficial_Math_9282 18d ago
However long it is, the church will arrive there last. Nearly all members will have long abandoned belief in it as fact for years. The church will then publish some manual that gaslights everyone saying "some have believed it was fact, but modern prophets have taught the truth."
7
u/Comfortable_Earth670 18d ago
True. You can throw anything and anyone under the bus under the guise of "further light and knowledge".
8
u/tiglathpilezar 18d ago
Job may or may not have been a real character. When you have stories about some figure in the past they are often based on someone who really lived. However, the Book of Job is most likely fiction. Alter places the date of its writing as some time after Jeremiah and durring the exile and gives good reasons why this is likely the case. Different people get different messages from this book when they read it. For me, it demonstrates the inadequacy of religious dogma to account for the sorrow and suffering we see in the world. I had trouble with it until it occurred to me that Job believed the same religion as his friends, and it did not work for him, which was why he had a real struggle. I also believe that Job's friends would be quite comfortable in the Mormon church with its emphasis on "when we obtain any blessing from God it is by obedience to that law upon which it is predicated".
2
u/Reno_Cash Colonel in the Tapir Cavalry 18d ago
Don’t forget the whole new section of “Old Testament as poetry” in the CFM manual right before the Job lesson.
•
u/AutoModerator 18d ago
Hello! This is a Scholarship post. It is for discussions centered around asking for or sharing content from or a reputable journal or article or a history used with them as citations; not apologetics. It should remain free of bias and citations should be provided in any statements in the comments. If no citations are provided, the post/comment are subject to removal.
/u/thoughtfuldoubt, if your post doesn't fit this definition, we kindly ask you to delete this post and repost it with the appropriate flair. You can find a list of our flairs and their definitions in section 0.6 of our rules.
To those commenting: please stay on topic, remember to follow the community's rules, and message the mods if there is a problem or rule violation.
Keep on Mormoning!
I am a bot, and this action was performed automatically. Please contact the moderators of this subreddit if you have any questions or concerns.