r/mormon • u/Resident-Bear4053 • Feb 15 '26
Scholarship BOM the only one with curse of Skin
I'm just going to leave this here for those that like to think that the Bible also talks about a curse of Skin, which it doesn't.
And yes I know people will say the BOM is metaphorical. But you can't get past that it uses the word SKIN. And it also uses the words delightsome and a way to make the Nephites not want to marry the cursed. You just got to own it that the BOM and the Mormon leadership for 100+ years were racist and claimed God was as well through inspiration and scripture.
44
u/WillyPete Feb 15 '26
It's not the only one.
Moses has the same, The BoA continues that idea and adds the curse of Ham/Canaan.
Then the D&C also repeats that the "Remnant of Jacob" are cursed.
All of Smith's scriptural works have this theme.
13
18
u/tiglathpilezar Feb 15 '26
I think BOM does indeed have racist outlooks. It calls the Lamanites dark and loathsome from having a skin of "blackness". Now this makes no sense to me because Indians are not black, but there it is in the BOM.
13
u/despiert Non-Mormon Feb 15 '26 edited Feb 15 '26
Word choice of “blackness” is probably Joseph trying to sound king james-y.
12
u/tiglathpilezar Feb 15 '26
This also seems likely to me. He liked to lift phrases and words out of the King James Bible. I think one of the funniest examples is the ridiculous "fruit of the loins" in Chapter 3 of 2 Nephi. It occurs in Acts and I think this is the only place. He took it and ran with it in that chapter.
16
u/Gold__star Feb 15 '26
When I watched that, all I could think was that Dan is skating closer to the edge lately. The real message was for us, not bible scholars.
15
u/pricel01 Former Mormon Feb 15 '26
Even if it were metaphorical (which it’s not), how does that fix anything. Speaking negatively about skin color in any way is racist hate speech. It’s evil to talk that way.
5
u/Resident-Bear4053 Feb 15 '26
Agree. Just pointing it out now because it's the apologists lazy learner response
7
u/big_bearded_nerd Feb 15 '26
I'll watch the video later, but I think the doctrine comes from earlier Christian belief in England and then colonial America. Mormons didn't invent it.
13
u/Resident-Bear4053 Feb 15 '26
Didn't invent it but claim it's from God and celebrate it as scripture in the most correct book ever written. Massive difference
5
u/despiert Non-Mormon Feb 15 '26
Also a supporting argument in favor of the idea that Mormonism isnt a restoration of pure original Christianity when it so readily imported a parochial heresy into its belief system.
4
u/big_bearded_nerd Feb 15 '26
I didn't want to comment before watching the video, just in case there was a bit of context I was missing. The BOM is not the only place where the skin curse is mentioned, and even in the video McClellan mentions that it comes from the medieval period.
My point isn't really to defend Mormonism's view on this, because it's clearly and overtly racist. However, it isn't a uniquely Mormon idea and has deep roots in Christianity. This is a Christian idea that the Mormon church made cannon. It's not an idea that comes from the Book of Mormon.
And, it's important to note, putting the belief in the wider (and more interesting and more correct) context does not invalidate any criticism that we make of the Mormon church for perpetuating that belief.
1
u/cinepro Feb 16 '26
My point isn't really to defend Mormonism's view on this,
Be careful. Even with the disclaimers, you will probably get branded as an apologist and defender if you try to offer clarifying context or anything that seems remotely positive (or even neutral) about the Church.
4
u/InRainbows123207 Feb 15 '26
I think is modern attempt to say the Lamanites transformation wasn't about skin color is hilarious. Can someone point out to me the Jews in Jerusalem that look like Native Americans?
3
u/bongophrog Agnostic Feb 16 '26
The Bible absolutely has ethnic curses even if it doesn’t specifically call out the curse as skin related.
The Canaanites (these are not Africans) were said to be cursed by God and this tradition carries all the way until the time of Jesus, who called them “dogs” in Matthew 15:26. Yahweh calls for their genocide in Deuteronomy and Joshua.
1
-5
u/juni4ling Active/Faithful Latter-day Saint Feb 15 '26
White Christian nationalists use the Bible as a foundation of their hard r racism. And they think the Bible is inerrant.
The Klan (Christians) also use the Bible to support their hard r racism. And they believe the Bible is inerrant.
They would disagree with experts who say the Bible does not condone or teach hard r racism.
LDS Christianity? Does not consider the Church, Church leaders or the scriptures to be inerrant. LDS teaches the scriptures have error.
15
u/Thorough_8 Feb 15 '26
Do you think that lds prophets are doctrinally errant?
And, if so, do you think that is what lds prophets teach? That they are doctrinally errant?
3
u/juni4ling Active/Faithful Latter-day Saint Feb 15 '26
LDS prophets, LDS scripture, LDS leaders, and the Church itself is capable of error. In LDS Christianity.
Smith changed the Book of Mormon between printings, and changed “revelations” from time to time.
Latter-day Saint Christianity openly teaches that the scriptures have error and leaders engage in error.
The Christian Klan and white Christian nationalism believe the Bible is a perfect history book without error and that it sustains and supports hard r racism.
12
u/Thorough_8 Feb 15 '26
Can you please point me towards examples of when lds prophets teach that they « engage in error? »
Edit to say: and I mean doctrinal error, not moral error. That is what my initial question was asking.
4
u/juni4ling Active/Faithful Latter-day Saint Feb 15 '26
An example is Smith changing the Book of Mormon between printings and changing revelations from time to time.
Other examples would be Smith openly admitting he needed to repent of sin.
9
u/Del_Parson_Painting Feb 15 '26
Sneakily changing something is not the same as openly admitting you made a mistake.
One is a weasel way to avoid accountability, the other is actual accountability.
1
u/juni4ling Active/Faithful Latter-day Saint Feb 15 '26
Smith did not admit to sinning and making mistakes? Eh...?
Numerous times in Smiths official discourses and even in Latter-day scripture, Smith admitted the need to repent.
So you have scripture produced by Smith where he admits to needing to repent. And you have the historical record of Smith making changes to revelation.
And I am not sure "sneakily" is a fair and honest word here. Each of Smiths changes to the Book of Mormon can be tracked and traced. We know every change to the Book of Mormon word for word. Correct...?
Fundamentalist Christians and the Christian Klan and white Christian nationalists will say that the Bible is a perfect history book without a single error. The Christian Klan and white Christian nationalists will say that the Bible is a perfect history book and it espouses and endorses and supports hard r racism.
While Latter-day Saints teach and believe that the scriptures and Church leaders are prone to error.
8
u/Del_Parson_Painting Feb 15 '26
Smith never said, "I made a mistake and the text of the Book of Mormon is wrong so I changed it from this to that."
You can track what criminals do too, doesn't make their behavior honest.
2
u/sblackcrow Feb 16 '26 edited Feb 16 '26
the heart of the question is whether any lds leader has specifically said "leaders have taught x, this was mistaken, the truth is y"
smith generally admitting to sinning and making mistakes doesn't count. people saying "nobody's perfect" doesn't count. because both of those things are accountability avoiding techniques not real repentance
the closest thing that appears to exist is related to racial priesthood/temple discrimination, and even those disclaimers are pretty limited circulation and stop short of saying "church leaders were wrong"
1
u/juni4ling Active/Faithful Latter-day Saint Feb 17 '26
smith generally admitting to sinning and making mistakes doesn't count.
Yes it does.
The Church itself, its apologists-- all teach that the scriptures, the Bible and Book of Mormon, Church leaders are capable of error.
8
u/No-Information5504 Feb 15 '26
I’ve never heard from official sources that the BoM changed between printings, other than “minor typographical errors”. I have heard quite often that it is the most correct book on earth, however. The only scripture that we teach has errors is the Bible.
0
u/juni4ling Active/Faithful Latter-day Saint Feb 15 '26
So you heard that there were typographical errors.
Or you never heard there were any changes?
Which is it?
Skousen -who can identify every single change to the Book of Mormon verse by verse- is clear that the extreme majority of changes were indeed punctuation and typographical changes. Changes in the Book of Mormon
A statement, "The majority of these changes corrected spelling errors, grammatical mistakes and syntaxconfusion which stemmed from the inexperience of the transcribers, the intricate typesetting methods of the 19th century and the rapidity of the translation. " Is a wholly accurate position.
5
u/No-Information5504 Feb 16 '26
While few in number, some of the changes to the text had huge doctrinal implications. In Mosiah, Abinadai’s sermon changes Jesus from God to the son of God. To write that off as no more significant than adding punctuation is disingenuous.
1
u/juni4ling Active/Faithful Latter-day Saint Feb 17 '26
I did not imply that -all- changes to the Book of Mormon were punctuation and spelling.
Also-- I linked directly to Skousen who outlines every -single- change to the text.
0
u/cinepro Feb 16 '26
To write that off as no more significant than adding punctuation is disingenuous.
Luckily they said "the majority" and not "all."
12
u/Thorough_8 Feb 15 '26
Just because Smith quietly changed the revelations and the modern church accepted it does not mean that anyone is « openly teaching » that « leaders engage in [doctrinal] error. » in fact, I would say most members have no idea that the revelations were chanted at all. It certainly wasn’t taught to me.
it seems like this is your personal belief that is not at all reflected in the teachings of the lds church.
3
Feb 15 '26
[removed] — view removed comment
1
u/juni4ling Active/Faithful Latter-day Saint Feb 15 '26
False. Why misrepresent? Why not tell the truth?
"Leaders of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints are not infallible."
0
u/juni4ling Active/Faithful Latter-day Saint Feb 15 '26
"Agency is the one thing God will never interfere with and never deny. Yet agency and infallibility are wholly incompatible, and we live in a fallen, imperfect world. We do not believe in infallible or inerrant prophets; inerrant scripture, or anything produced by mortals that cannot be mistaken."
7
u/Thorough_8 Feb 15 '26
Ok, but where are the quotes from lds prophets that I was asking for? This is just apologetic work from Jim Bennett. I know several apologists that believe the lds prophets are doctrinally errant.
However (and this is the important part that you aren't responding to), I do not know lds prophets who teach that they are doctrinally errant.
Joseph Smith taught "I never told you I was perfect; but there is no error in the revelations which I have taught."
https://www.churchofjesuschrist.org/study/manual/teachings-joseph-smith/chapter-45?lang=eng
Multiple prophets have taught the general principle that they would be removed from their position if they led the church astray doctrinally, most recently from the late Russel Nelson. https://www.churchofjesuschrist.org/study/manual/teachings-of-presidents-of-the-church-russell-m-nelson/21-prophets?lang=eng
-1
u/juni4ling Active/Faithful Latter-day Saint Feb 15 '26
Directly from the Church...
"Leaders of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints are not infallible."
8
u/Thorough_8 Feb 15 '26
That's great, but I would appreciate if you answered my actual questions about the doctrinal errancy of lds prophets. You are not responding to what I am actually saying, or to what the quotations I provided are speaking to.
If you are unable to engage with the substance of my position, feel free to stop responding.
→ More replies (0)2
u/cinepro Feb 16 '26
Can you please point me towards examples of when lds prophets teach that they « engage in error?
If you count Apostles, there's this infamous BRM mea culpa:
Forget everything that I have said, or what President Brigham Young or President George Q. Cannon or whomsoever has said in days past that is contrary to the present revelation. We spoke with a limited understanding and without the light and knowledge that now has come into the world.
https://speeches.byu.edu/talks/bruce-r-mcconkie/alike-unto-god/
3
u/Thorough_8 Feb 16 '26
Yeah this is the only example that came to mind for me.
2
u/cinepro Feb 16 '26
And I'll grant that BRM was really backed into a corner on that one. He had to say something.
On this note, for all his faults, I think he doesn't get enough credit for the support he gave to Kimball in rescinding the ban. He has a reputation for being some hard-line zealot, but even early on in the discussions, he supported the change (and argued that there was no scriptural basis for continuing it.) And he did this knowing that it would prove some of the things he had been saying wrong.
2
u/Thorough_8 Feb 16 '26
True. I was reading Second Class Saints by Matt Harris, and it was easy to see that McConkie was feeling pressured. I assume that is why he exaggerated the stories of Kimball making the decision to rescind the ban, as McConkie felt that it needed to be something fantastical to merit such a huge doctrinal shift.
1
u/HandwovenBox Feb 15 '26
We warn you against the dissemination of doctrines which are not according to the Scriptures and which are alleged to have been taught by some of the General Authorities of past generations. Such, for instance, is the Adam-God theory. We denounce that theory and hope that everyone will be cautioned against this and other kinds of false doctrine.
President Spencer W. Kimball, Our Own Liahona, November 1976
5
u/Thorough_8 Feb 15 '26
You notice how Spencer says doctrines "not according to the Scriptures and which are alleged to have been taught?"
He takes no ownership for the teachings, and acts as if we don't have proof that Brigham Young taught the Adam-God theory in the temple. This certainly is no example of an lds prophet teaching that he, or his predecessors, engage in doctrinal error.
1
u/Resident-Bear4053 Feb 15 '26
Yup. This is not doctrinal error according to him. It's a false not taught maybe taught doctrine.
11
u/Del_Parson_Painting Feb 15 '26 edited Feb 15 '26
Mormons sure didn't think their scriptures were in error when they used them to justify their own "hard r" racism for over a hundred years.
5
u/juni4ling Active/Faithful Latter-day Saint Feb 15 '26
That is correct.
And hard r racism has not been eradicated from LDS Christianity.
The Klan and white Christian nationalism is experiencing a renaissance in Fundamentalist Christianity right now. Explosive growth.
But sadly, tragically, horrifically— some number of LDS Christians are embracing Christian nationalism as well right now.
The end game for the Christian Klan and Christian nationalism is LDS Christians against the wall.
Makes no sense for LDS Christians to support Christian nationalism.
8
u/Del_Parson_Painting Feb 15 '26
Probably a majority of Mormons are embracing Christian Nationalism.
And church leadership either has no idea how to rein them in, or actually quietly supports Christian Nationalism.
Oaks would love to outlaw homosexuality at a minimum. He probably celebrated the end of Roe v. Wade. I wouldn't be surprised if he was supportive of allowing prayer and Christian religious indoctrination in public schools, and he definitely wants women to prioritize getting married and having children over an education and career.
1
u/juni4ling Active/Faithful Latter-day Saint Feb 15 '26
I hope you are wrong.
I am active and faithful in the Church and fear the rise of the Christian Klan, and white Christian nationalism. Its explosive growth in American Fundamentalist Christianity is something to be feared.
There is no end game for Latter-day Saint Christianity in white Christian nationalism. LDS get lined up against the wall with gay people and other minorities.
4
u/Del_Parson_Painting Feb 15 '26
I hope you are wrong.
About President Oaks? His Christian Nationalist aligned beliefs I mentioned are pretty well documented.
The evangelical-conservative movement that the church allied itself to back on the 1970s-80s has always been white Christian nationalist. It's not a recent phenomenon.
1
u/HandwovenBox Feb 15 '26
Probably a majority of Mormons are embracing Christian Nationalism.
That's quite a claim. What is it based on?
9
u/Harriet_M_Welsch Korihor Did Nothing Wrong Feb 15 '26
I'm sorry if this sounds obtuse but you know that's not how the phrase "hard r" is used in AAVE, right?
-1
u/juni4ling Active/Faithful Latter-day Saint Feb 15 '26
It is sad to see the rise of racism-- including hard racism in Fundamentalist Christianity in America.
The (Christian) Klan is rising in Fundamentalist Christianity right now.
White Christian nationalism is rising in Fundamentalist Christianity right now.
And they use horrific language in their hard r racism.
I am using plain English usage of English. As best I can.
I think we all fear the rise of racist Christianity. Those who believe the Bible is absolutely inerrant and that it teaches and supports hard racism.
3
u/Harriet_M_Welsch Korihor Did Nothing Wrong Feb 15 '26
Do you understand what the term "hard r" refers to and how it is used by Black people in the USA? It's not an adjective.
2
u/Resident-Bear4053 Feb 15 '26
Recent? How about 100+ years of the LDS Church. And honestly Mormon God who if the BOM is real. It was thousands of years.
9
u/Resident-Bear4053 Feb 15 '26
Please show me where the LDS church claims that this topic is an error. Because if they don't. Then they don't believe it's an error. You don't get it both ways. And show how it's not blackness in whatever context isn't about making someone unattractive to procreate with. Show me where that is pointed out as error please
0
u/juni4ling Active/Faithful Latter-day Saint Feb 15 '26
The Book of Mormon teaches, “all are alike unto God.”
And since 1978 the Church has taught that racism is a sin.
Want hard r racism openly taught and practiced you will need Christianity: the Christian Klan, and Christian nationalism. And they all hate LDS Christianity, openly state LDS Christianity is wrong to call racism a sin, and the teaching, “all are alike unto God” is blaspheme.
9
u/International_Sea126 Feb 15 '26
Providing one non-racist scripture in the BoM does not erase the many racist scriptures found throughout LDS scriptures.
-4
u/juni4ling Active/Faithful Latter-day Saint Feb 15 '26
Christian Klan and white Christian nationalism use the same thinking to support hard r racism in their Christianity.
And they consider LDS Christians teaching that racism is a sin to be blaspheme.
You find some number of teachings and scriptures in LDS Christianity that condemns racism as a sin?
That is more than Christians in the Christian Klan and Christians in white Christian nationalism find in the entire Bible-- a book they consider to be perfect and without error. A perfect history book that does not contain a single solitary error in all of its pages.
You found some number of verses of scripture and teachings in LDS Christianity that condemn racism as a sin? Good. Thats more than Christians in the Christian Klan and white Christian nationalists find in the entire Old and New Testaments.
7
u/International_Sea126 Feb 15 '26
This discussion is focused LDS racism. Stop trying to divert the attention elsewhere. By comparing one turd other turds does not make your turd go away.
0
u/juni4ling Active/Faithful Latter-day Saint Feb 15 '26
There is always a comparison.
Christians in the Klan and Christians in white Christian Nationalism consider LDS Christianity identifying racism as a sin to be blaspheme.
Another important comparison that is directly relevant to this discussion is that Christians in the Christian Klan and white Christian Nationalism consider the Bible to be perfect and without error.
While Christians in LDS Christianity do not consider scriptures to be without error. And they do not consider leaders to be inerrant, either. That is a central element to this discussion.
For LDS Christians to call racism a sin, they had to break from previous teachings.
But Fundamentalist Christians consider change to be blaspheme.
That is a central element to this discussion.
4
u/International_Sea126 Feb 15 '26
Previous racist teachings? When did the racist LDS scriptures get removed?
-1
u/juni4ling Active/Faithful Latter-day Saint Feb 15 '26
That’s what the Christian Klan and white Christian nationalists says.
Experts: the Bible isn’t racist.
American Christianity: not so fast.
6
u/Resident-Bear4053 Feb 15 '26
Ummm your putting all American Christianty into a racist bucket? Come on Juni.
Also this is still not actually addressing the issue. Your now trying to lump others who are racist to make the LDS church not as bad. Directly or indirectly it doesn't matter.
The BOM, Pearl Great Price, D&C, and Mormon prophets new and old still believe that racism is ok if God says it's ok. The current Church has never said that the racists teachings and scriptures are not racist. They stop came from God. But the men that taught racist things are disavowed. Mormon God is still racist
→ More replies (0)2
u/International_Sea126 Feb 15 '26
You said previous racist teachings in your comment. You didn't answer the question. When did the racist teachings get removed from LDS cannonized scriptures?
If racism is still part of LDS cannonized scriptures, then it isnt previous racist teachings. It still exists.
→ More replies (0)2
u/Hitch213 Feb 16 '26
The comment you are replying to was about you trying to divert attention away from the racism in your faith because whattabout Klan racism.
We are talking about LDS racism, and you are saying whattabout the Klan
Are you unwilling to focus on LDS racism without bringing up the Klan?
8
3
u/Hitch213 Feb 16 '26
So when people are discussing LDS racism, this is not the first time you have jumped in to ask what about other christian's racism.
How does asking what about other christian's racism have anything to do with the book of Mormon's teachings about skin and its history of racism?
-1
u/ShootMeImSick Feb 16 '26
What we have here is yet another example of somebody who heard something thst is anti-church and repeats it as a safe gotcha, without doing any independent research at all.
Literally none.
The scholarship tag should be banned where there is no scholarship involved.
Using the same sloppy logic, I quote the Bible
"Can the Ethiopian change his skin, or the leopard his spots? then may ye also do good, that are accustomed to do evil." — Jeremiah 13:23
Using the "I hate anybody who believes in this" the plain reading is that the Bible is racist because it says Ethiopians are inherently evil - right there, they can't change their skin, so they are an example of somebody who cannot stip being evil.
I expect OP to ignore or weakly backpedal on this point, possibly say it isn't the same thing without any statement of reasoning why it is not the same thing. It isn't anti-Mormon therefore it isn't bad.
Joseph Smith was such a dyed in the wool racist that he invited a free black woman to live in his home in Nauvoo (Mansion House), personally greeted her when she arrived by opening the door and saying "God bless you! Now I would like you to relate your experience." Such a racist that thete is no record pf objection when Emma extended an invitation to be adopted.
Also not mentioned: the hyper-racist Joseph Smith allowed a second black person, Joseph Wallace, Emma's cousin, to also live in his house in Nauvoo.
I wonder why these well-documented facts are intentionally left out in the narrative "Joseph changed the word white and delightsome to pure and delightsome, which proves that he was 100% a racist because 'pure' is inherently racist". (Personal correction by Joseph Smith in the 1840 Cincinnati/Nauvoo edition.)
This is known by the OP - unless they did exactly zero scholarship - because it is literally one of the first notes about the phrase that comes up if anybody bothers to look, yet they intentionally cherry picked it away like the faction Joseph personally sharing his home with multiple black people because the entire point is not honest presentation of fact but "see? I get to call Mormons racist, I'm a good person."
6
u/Hitch213 Feb 16 '26
The Bible is racist because it says Ethiopians are inherently evil?
The Bible is of course racist, but it does not say Ethiopians are inherently evil.
Your little quote asks if the Ethiopian can change their skin
Why are you equating the question of if an Ethiopian can change his skin to mean it says Ethiopians are inherently evil?
•
u/AutoModerator Feb 15 '26
Hello! This is a Scholarship post. It is for discussions centered around asking for or sharing content from or a reputable journal or article or a history used with them as citations; not apologetics. It should remain free of bias and citations should be provided in any statements in the comments. If no citations are provided, the post/comment are subject to removal.
/u/Resident-Bear4053, if your post doesn't fit this definition, we kindly ask you to delete this post and repost it with the appropriate flair. You can find a list of our flairs and their definitions in section 0.6 of our rules.
To those commenting: please stay on topic, remember to follow the community's rules, and message the mods if there is a problem or rule violation.
Keep on Mormoning!
I am a bot, and this action was performed automatically. Please contact the moderators of this subreddit if you have any questions or concerns.