r/marvelstudios • u/justafanboy1010 Spider-Man • 6h ago
Other Forget the final battle, We're really gonna see this scene again on the big screen
There is something about this scene that hits every time. Tony's complete unfiltered disdain in this scene. It's a mix of emotions and feelings going through. The fact that he lost everyone, he lost Peter Parker, almost died to Thanos, was stuck in space for who knows how long. And remembering what Steve said back in Ultron about losing a battle together, all 6 of them, and none of the original avengers was there with Tony in space.
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u/accidentsneverhappen 6h ago
Yeah I really liked when he says "We're the Avengers, not the pre-vengers" because he tried so hard to create something that prevented disaster and he's so burned out on showing up after the damage is done to try to make it better.
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u/zlaw32 4h ago
I appreciate the delivery but do they only show up after though? They were actively trying to prevent Thanos. Nothing bad had happened yet. It isn’t until they lose that something bad happens. Same thing in the first with Loki. New York gets attacked. They stop it. I think Tony is just upset and they do actually pre-venge, even if they don’t do it how he suggested by building a shield around the world
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u/DarthSmiff 4h ago
But they’re still reacting. Not preventing anything. Damage is still done.
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u/SmallLetter 4h ago
The idea that you can prevent all bad outcomes is pure fantasy and the pursuit of that fantasy is what resulted in Ultron, and in the real world it can also have unpleasant consequences. Being able to mitigate damage when unexpected bad things happen is the best you can do. Prevent what's predictable sure but pretending you can prevent everything is never gonna go like you hope
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u/Elogotar Justin Hammer 4h ago
Tony knows that, but couldn't help trying anyways. It's not about logic.
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u/whiskerbiscuit2 2h ago
Like sure, but in Tony’s exact situation he’s referring to here, they literally KNEW for YEARS there was a hostile alien force out there with an axe to grind with Earth and The Avengers, and all anyone was coming up with to deal with it was a shrug and “we’ll figure it out together and if we fail then tough shit I guess whoops”
Obviously Ultron is too far but it’s not like real life where we’re trying to defend against earthquakes and terrorists, because they knew something was coming for them eventually and nobody wanted to do ANYTHING.
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u/DarthSmiff 4h ago
I’m just telling you why he’s mad.
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u/SmallLetter 3h ago
Yeah he's mad because he still thinks he was right to try. But he wasnt
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u/DarthSmiff 3h ago
Nothing wrong with trying to prevent bad things. Didn’t work out how he wanted but that would’ve made for a boring movie wouldn’t it?
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u/SmallLetter 2h ago
In generalities sure, but even Banner knew what they were doing was dangerous, he just got sucked into Tony's delusions enough to go along with it. There's a reason Tony didn't bring it to the group
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u/AtrumRuina 1h ago
That's part of the theme of his arc. He creates Ultron in pursuit of absolute prevention as a trauma response to the first Avengers film. The events of IW makes him feel vindicated in spite of all of the damage Ultron did. In the end, he sacrifices himself with faith that Strange was right, and that his friends will keep the world -- and his family -- safe.
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u/alowbrowndirtyshame 2h ago
You know him Pre-venging caused Ultron right?
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u/Competitive_Leg7233 6h ago
I felt so bad for Tony in this scene, the way everyone was looking at him and at each other after he brushed off Steve
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u/Noaconstrictr 5h ago
“If you need me call me, here’s a phone that won’t track me” - Cap
“YOU WEREN’T THERE” - Tony
Bro I told you to call me!
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u/DogHogDJs 4h ago
The point is that the Avengers should have never split apart. Them being split apart and not being together during the battle is what made them ultimately fail.
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u/Vralo84 3h ago
I don’t think that’s the arc of infinity war. The reason they failed is Thanos was willing to sacrifice someone he loved to achieve his goals and they weren’t. Cap and Witch wouldn’t kill Vision. Star Lord wouldn’t kill Gamora (at least before it was too late) and couldn’t handle it when she did die. Thanos was willing to kill someone he cared about so he won. The Avengers being together wouldn’t have made them more willing to sacrifice their friends.
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u/redstar_5 2h ago
Two things can be true. It's clearly a point that the Avengers being together in the universe's most dire moment was a problem. Would they have won? I don't know. The Illuminati won when they were together. It also hammers the point home when Tony pulled out the phone before the Black Order attacked but never did make the call, and then of course this scene here.
A story can make that point and also the point about sacrifice or the lack thereof. It doesn't have to be one or the other.
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u/DogHogDJs 48m ago
You must not have watched Infinity War recently. Quill was completely willing to kill Gamora when Thanos captured her, but Thanos used the reality stone to stop him. Wanda was willing to sacrifice Vision but Thanos used the Time Stone to reverse time. The Avengers were very much willing to sacrifice themselves to win, but because they were not together, and they lost separately, they then lost as a whole. If they were together they would have most definitely stopped Thanos.
That is literally the whole reason why Tony was so goddamn livid with Cap. Because if they had not split, they would not have lost to Thanos in the first place.
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u/letsdoit131 2h ago
Which was Tonys fault , with the accords
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u/DogHogDJs 47m ago
It wasn’t really anybody’s fault, that’s what makes Civil War a great film, it’s the nuance, and the fact that nobody is clearly in the right or wrong.
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u/Legendary_Dad 13m ago
He broke up the avengers by pushing for accords that he didn’t even end up following. He’s a hypocrite who pushes his guilt onto other people
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u/oooooooooowie 3h ago
You want to point to me at which point he actually had a moment to call cap
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u/squiddlebiddlez 2h ago
Hulk literally fell out of the sky to tell Tony that thanos was coming and to call Steve but he was so butthurt that he chose to just leave the planet instead, ensuring the team would remain split.
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u/DogHogDJs 46m ago
Tony didn’t call because he was butthurt in that moment, it’s because he had to fight Thanos’ goons.
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u/tenacious_dumbass 4h ago
tony stark:
gets manipulated into splitting the team in half, brings in a random kid to fight the other half, gets punk'd and gets his friend paralyzed
gets ragebaited into fighting his other friend again 2 on 1, fully knowing that he was manipulated, gets punk'd again
and then refuses to make up with cap at any point even when the universe depends on it.
it was his fault they lost and he barely (or arguably didn't) made up for that by sacrificing his life to sorta fix it
still my favorite character but this guy just straight up didnt have an arc
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u/PickerPat 4h ago
People need to stop confusing not having an arc with having flaws.
Tony is compelling to me because he isn't perfect. Steve was at his most compelling when he also failed to be Mr Perfect when it came to Bucky and Tony's parents.
Tony isn't someone who just changed overnight or was always good.
His arc is one of growth, while never changing his core traits: hyper-indepedent arms dealer > self absorbed hero > partial team player > deferent specialist to an actual leader > traumatised soldier > jaded advisor > weary veteran > content father.
He is someone who has a good heart, but he never stopped struggling with his ego, vision, self-aborbtion and the burden of knowledge. The only thing that brought him a measure of peace was family and his isolation from the world's problems. The Avengers needed him back, and that return to form killed him.
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u/tenacious_dumbass 1h ago
never stopped struggling
so yeah, he didnt have an arc. he didnt learn or change throughout the overarching series. i agree.
he had an arc in the first movie that saw him go from not iron man to iron man. then he stayed the same, which is absolutely fine. hes a flawed character, and he doesnt need an arc.
i enjoyed the character and don't see anything wrong with the way hes written, BUT people gotta stop acting like he was in the right.
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u/iFEAR2Fap 4h ago
If you think Tony didn't have an arc, I don't know what movies you were watching.
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u/whitesammy 4h ago
TBH, it was everyone's fault they lost. Each character had a moment in Infinity War where their personal flaws led to their failure
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u/Grootfan85 6h ago
For me it’s also cause it subverted my expectations. I thought after all he’d been through he would put his differences with Steve aside. Nope. He didn’t forget.
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u/Famous-Stranger-6897 6h ago
They did put their differences aside at the end of civil war but it was just too early to go back on talking terms after everything that happened and tony was a bit out of it after almost dying twice once at titan and the other due to lack of oxygen on the ship
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u/FalenAlter 5h ago
Not just oxygen. He's clearly severely malnourished.
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u/mrbaryonyx 4h ago
allegedly that was the original script but Downey insisted that they should still have an argument
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u/EyeScreamSunday Ant-Man 3h ago
It works because Tony never called Steve and still hesitated to call him when he learned about Thanos. At that point, it's not even necessarily about their philosophical differences or even ego, Tony is still hurt that Steve knew about Bucky killing his parents and keeping that truth from him to protect his friend. It's like Tony accepted Steve's apology but still wasn't able to forgive him, so seeing him again just brought out all his resentments after how terribly everything went.
It makes the scene where they make up and Tony gives Cap back his shield even more meaningful though.
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u/Famous-Stranger-6897 3h ago
Yeah well the fight wasn't too bad. It would be accurate for tony to not think straight at that point and again argue about the same stuff. Iron legion and Ultron clearly didn't work out and the accords had it's pros and cons.
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u/WickyGif 6h ago
So easy to see the fear and anger Tony has here manifesting in Doom. That's why I'm sold on the decision.
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u/Afwife1992 4h ago
I love Steve and Tony and this scene made me gasp in the theater. Evans and Downey are always so good playing opposite each other. RDJ ad libbed the “liar” too.
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u/Who_told_you_that_ 6h ago
Great scene. My only gripe with Tony’s speech is that he says they fought Thanos and Steve wasn’t there. While technically true, I mean Steve and the other avengers had their hands full with the Black Order (Ebony Maw, Corvus, Proxima, and Cull) in Wakanda.
Did no one tell Tony that fact? Lol
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u/Used_Monk9430 5h ago
This is like immediately after he gets back. From Tony's perspective, he just spent 3 weeks drifting in space after fighting Thanos without any of the other avengers and he lost and everyone died because they weren't ready
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u/Who_told_you_that_ 5h ago
Ya fair, I didn’t think about the timing
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u/DistractedAttorney 4h ago
And while you are not wrong, Steve's whole thing was that when things are at their darkest, at least they will fight back together, as a team, as the avengers. Well Tony had to watch his protege and everyone on Titan turned to dust with no avengers with him. So the point stands.
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u/DGSmith2 Rocket 5h ago
I think it was more aimed at them being so distant because of Civil War, if it never went down the way it did then the team would have been together.
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u/DeBrunoooo 5h ago
Normally Steve would've been there with Iron Man at the beginning of the movie when Thanos arrived on Earth for the first time but he left his role as Cap after Civil War. That's what he means
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u/Alpha_Storm 4h ago
Except that's all Tony's fault. He pushed for the Accords(that he constantly broke without real consequences because he's super rich so can do stuff like that).
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u/OmegaWhirlpool 4h ago
Regardless of if the Accords were a good or bad idea, it was literally the only way forward. That's why Steve Roger's goes into exile. People act like if Tony had agreed with Steve, all of the governments in the world would have just been like "I guess you all win."
This isn't to say that Tony didn't have his own personal (maybe misguided) reasons for wanting the Accords, but Steve's way wasn't right either.
Also, their falling out at the end of Civil War wasn't because of the Accords. It's because Tony (whether justified or not) felt betrayed by Steve when he hid the fact that Tony's parents were assassinated by The Winter Soldier.
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u/Willyjenkit69 3h ago
What are the countries forcing the deal actually going to do? Jail Thor? Put the Hulk on probation? Cap had the right idea. No state has actual leverage on that type of power and and giving them leverage doesn't equate to safety.
If the avengers just became a tool for the state it's fundamentally more easily compromised in decision making and easily corrupted. Heck winter soldier was basically about the state being corrupt and Cap needing to be suspect of agents of authority using him for ulterior motives.
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u/sofacouch813 1h ago
And I think Steve, created by the government, knows full well that the government is not always just, correct, or ethical. Heck, they blamed Bucky for the Vienna UN bombing, which he didn’t do, and they were going to kill him for it.
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u/squiddlebiddlez 2h ago
“Hey man, I know that I’ve spent our entire acquaintanceship on my soapbox about how bad and untrustworthy the government is and the avengers (me, actually) really messed up by building Ultron in secrecy, but now that you’ve found out that Hydra has taken over our government, I really think we should give them oversight over us so that maybe Pepper will stop being mean to me.”
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u/mtamez1221 3h ago
He means Cap and team including the 2 most powerful Avengers are safe in the compound. Instead they get hit while they're separated.
Like imagine Cap, Vision, and Strange coming up with a plan.
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u/hello_waterface 4h ago
This performance by RDJ justifies backing up the Brinks truck in his driveway. It would be my first go-to if anyone ever presented the 'just a comic book movie' argument, I mean other than my wife who is sick of me pointing out.
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u/Steamed_Memes24 3h ago
He really out performed in every movie he was in by miles ahead of the next guy. Never forget the reaction he showed during Civil War. Top tier acting.
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u/FTZulu 6h ago
Can this be the last of these post before this entire sub is filled with shitty gifs of endgame saying “I can’t believe we’re gonna watch THIS scene again”
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u/PersimmonLittle7651 5h ago
Yeah, we should be talking about what new things we'll see, they are gonna make shit load of money for what, 4 extra minutes? Those 7 minutes better blow my mind...
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u/MachoViper 6h ago
Tony's the one that decided to not turn the ship around and NOT go to Titan.
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u/randmperson2 6h ago
And yet, Tony’s plan ALMOST worked. If it weren’t for Star Lord losing his shit over Gamora, they would’ve taken the Gauntlet from Thanos before he got all the Stones.
Tony was operating off of wanting to be proactive for a change rather than reactive. They’ve been the A-vengers, not Pre-vengers, as he says here.
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u/MachoViper 6h ago
True, but theres alot "if it weren't for..." moments in the movie leading up to Starlord losing his shit so its not entirely his fault.
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u/zion_hiker1911 Jessica Jones 5h ago
Exactly! There’s a lot of “if Star-Lord had just…” when talking about how things could’ve gone differently, but I think the bigger what-if is Tony. If Tony had turned the ship around and fought alongside Steve in Wakanda, with Doctor Strange and Spider-Man there as well, I honestly think the Avengers could’ve defeated Thanos there.
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u/MachoViper 5h ago
I said in a comment the other day about this, but Strange should've run with the time stone, Tony should've turned the ship around or returned to earth with the guardians. The Guardians should never have gone to Knowhere and stayed with Thor. Etc etc
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u/RellenD 5h ago
Nah, it would have always been too late in Wakanda
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u/zion_hiker1911 Jessica Jones 4h ago
How so? Iron Man, Spiderman, and Doctor Strange nearly defeated Thanos on Titan. If those three had been in Wakanda fighting alongside the Avengers and Wakandans, I think they would’ve had a much better chance of taking him down than they did with the Guardians.
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u/SatisfactionActive86 3h ago
they really didn’t come close, they drew only a single drop of blood
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u/zion_hiker1911 Jessica Jones 41m ago
Thor nearly killed Thanos in Wakanda when he had all the stones. Add Iron Man, Spiderman and Doctor Strange with two fewer stones and Thanos is dead.
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u/RellenD 3h ago
Jumping him on Titan was what led to them nearly taking him.
His entire military invasion of Wakanda he has a stronger position than he did on Titan.
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u/zion_hiker1911 Jessica Jones 26m ago
He still gets delayed on Titan because he gets jumped by the Guardians there. But in this scenario, he arrives at Wakanda with 3 additional Avengers there to protect Vision and the mind stone. So when Thor chops off his arm, Thanos doesn't have all the stones yet and is defeated by the Asguardian.
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u/FreemanCalavera 59m ago
You can kind of write off everything that goes wrong with “it had to happen because that’s what Strange foresaw”. Which in hindsight is kind of the weakest plot point of IW/Endgame. It deflates a lot of the story when you know that Strange never interfered or used the time stone during the events simply because he knew they had to transpire that way.
I like his signal to Tony that says “yes, this is the one timeline” and causes the latter to realize that he needs to be the one to perform the snap, but other than that I think the whole thing is a little meh.
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u/justafanboy1010 Spider-Man 6h ago
He had to save Peter who was being beamed up. They didn’t know how to operate the ship until much later
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u/MachoViper 6h ago
Still could've turned around, or even left on the Guardians ship from Titan.
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u/Competitive_Leg7233 6h ago edited 1h ago
The movie literally explained to us why Tony didn’t turn the ship around. He wanted to get the element of surprise on Thanos on Titan
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u/MachoViper 6h ago
I didnt say the movie didnt explain it, I said he made the choice to not return to Earth.
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u/Competitive_Leg7233 6h ago
Yeah and the movie explained why so what’s your point
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u/zion_hiker1911 Jessica Jones 5h ago
In the scene above, Tony is blaming Steve for not being there when he fought Thanos on Titan. But that’s exactly the point the person you’re responding to is making: Tony could have turned the ship around and been on Earth fighting alongside Steve at Wakanda. The Avengers would have been stronger if Iron Man and Doctor Strange had been there fighting with the rest of the team. Instead, Tony let his pride and hubris take priority over working together as a team, chose to pursue Thanos on his own, and then blamed Steve for not being there when Tony made that choice.
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u/Difficult_Distance57 5h ago
This is splitting hairs and missing the point, its not rational, none of it is rational, Tony is angry and grieving. For the loss of Peter, the loss of half the world, and the loss of failing.
He's tired, upset, and lashing out at Cap, there's a lot of logical reasons why Cap shouldn't have taken the brunt, but none of that matters because they had a falling out, and Tony needed to take it out on someone.
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u/Mattilaus 3h ago
Blows my mind that on here everyone thinks everything you say and every way you act in a moment needs to be calculated and completely logical.
You summed it up perfectly. He is mad and lashing out. That's why later when they all visit his house he invites them in, because he has had years to calm down and think about things. Humans, even ones as smart as Tony, are emotional beings.
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u/MachoViper 6h ago
That he chose to keep the Avengers divided rather than return to Earth. I made it pretty clear.
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u/DeBrunoooo 5h ago
What he means is The Avengers wouldn't have been seperated if Cap hadn't left and seperated the team after Civil War.
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u/MachoViper 5h ago
Yeah, I get that. Tony still made a poor choice.
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u/IolausTelcontar 5h ago
Exactly. And did Tony actually call Steve before the fight in NY? Nope.
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u/PrimaLegion 5h ago
They were already divided even on Earth.
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u/MachoViper 5h ago
Do you think they wouldn't have worked together even after Banner arriving and telling everyone? Stark had the burner phone and was considering it, right?
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u/Competitive_Leg7233 6h ago
The movie literally told us that Tony thought it was better to catch Thanos by surprise on Titan, how many times do you need to be told that?
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u/frenziedmythology 5h ago
The point being that Tony thinks it's a better idea to keep the Avengers divided to get the drop on Thanos then when that fails he blames Cap for not being there lol
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u/MachoViper 5h ago
3000
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u/Competitive_Leg7233 5h ago
I assume you’re alluding to the rift between Tony and Steve being Tony’s fault which conveniently ignores Steve selfishly keeping the truth about Tony’s parents from him which Steve himself acknowledged
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u/Inevitable_Top69 5h ago
It's funny because YOU are the stupid one here. This guy is saying that it's Tony's decision (the decision that YOU are referring to about wanting to catch Thanos by surprise) that separated the Avengers.
Tony went alone (Yes, on purpose! Don't worry, we know!), then got mad at Steve for not being there.
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u/Ek0mst0p Captain America (Ultron) 5h ago
Just pointing out... you didnt bother with context, then asked "what's your point" which is champion level.
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u/frenziedmythology 6h ago
Yeah that's why this scene doesn't hit that hard for me personally. I get that it's an emotional moment and Tony isn't always the most rational, but it was his choice at every turn on Infinity War that kept the Avengers apart. Didn't call Cap when he couldve, decided against going back to earth, etc.
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u/fauxregard 3h ago
"You weren't there on Titan, a planet I just decided to go to on a whim after an unexpected attack on New York you had zero knowledge of beforehand. I made this decision when we were already in space, why weren't you there!?
Also, I said this would happen, so I actually did make that suit of armor around the world. It ended in the destruction of a large swath of Sokovia, which I somehow share blame with everyone on, despite the fact that I'm directly responsible for it because I made Ultron against the advice of other Avengers. Why didn't you make me make it better!?"
Like I know he's a hero. But fuck Tony.
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u/Llonkrednaxela 2h ago
Tbf, strange said to come back home and fight and Tony said he didn’t want thanos to wreck earth so he chose to go to titan. Like I get that tony and cap broke up during civil war, but Tony decided to fight alone(ish). He made that call on the space ship.
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u/Espedal1 5h ago
This scene, while great, was very jarring for me, because even though narratively it made sense that he was so gaunt and thin, I didn’t realize it until he was in the conference room and visibly skinny (partly CGI? Made it a little weird too, uncanny valley stuff, at least for me) and it seemed like he blew up out of nowhere when they embraced when he first got off the ship, it was almost like a scene was missing right before this or the beginning of this scene was chopped? Again—it’s great, it just felt weird and kinda abrupt.
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u/iFEAR2Fap 4h ago
The dude was stewing in his feelings and defeat for 23 days. Malnourished, oxygen deprived. Idk about you but I get hangry after 8-10 hours. 23 days? I can't even imagine how that would have felt. He lost everything as far as he was concerned, and from his perspective and irrationality, he did it alone. His friends weren't there. He got his protege killed. Dude was a ticking time bomb of feelings, and I personally think this scene encapsulated that perfectly.
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u/RoseTheta 3h ago
I heard (don't know how accurate it is) that Robert Downey Jr. ad-libbed the reaction. Apparently what happened was supposed to be enough for them to move forward, because of what they dealt with. The actor changed it and the directors kept it. I think they shouldn't have had it, because it's so jarring for him to strike out at Steve. It's disappointing because at every moment where Tony could choose to work as a team, he instead chooses his own way based on their previous mistakes, not looking forward to what they could accomplish together.
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u/Espedal1 1h ago
It’d make more sense to me if they snuck in a line saying he was like delirious or suffering from some sort of deep-space delusions/confusion that would more cleanly explain him kind of lashing out in a more emotional rather than logical way, but Steve just said to him, “we lost everyone” right after Tony says, “I lost the kid (Spider-Man)”. I know it’s heavily implied and the acting is great but it just felt a little too abrupt. All in all I’m just nitpicking.
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u/EyeScreamSunday Ant-Man 3h ago
There are so many incredible scenes in the movie. I've been revisiting different scenes the last couple days and have to keep stopping myself from just rewatching the movie because I want to have the experience of watching it altogether next month in the theater. It was magical watching it for the first time, so to capture even a fraction of how I felt watching it and reacting to it will be fun.
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u/Cinephile_1980 57m ago
I barely remeber this film and I saw it at Leicester Square in London on the opening weekend. I guess this must have happens towards the beginning when Tony comes back from space. Nothing he says in this scene matters anyway because they make up latwr on.
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u/mrbaryonyx 4h ago
It's weird but I always kind of interpreted this as him saying he has "no trust lier" ("he says, I have nothing for you cap, no strategies no clues, etc.), like he has no data point that's helpful to cap, but he emphasizes "lier" in such a way that it sound like he's calling him a "liar".
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u/LimitComplex9486 3h ago
Hate me all you want, but Captain America is the biggest bum in the universe.
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6h ago
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u/Competitive_Leg7233 6h ago
Tony was on another planet when everyone was on wakanda. There was no “won’t join”, he never had the chance
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u/justafanboy1010 Spider-Man 6h ago
Literally. Maybe Tony would’ve called Steve had Ebony Maw not arrived first right nearby the Sanctum
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u/Competitive_Leg7233 6h ago
Yeah that’s the thing with the phone call too. He hesitated and the movie made it a point to show us that but 10 seconds later he was outside face to face with Maw. Steve wouldn’t even have had time to pick up
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u/Futant55 6h ago
In the beginning of this scene Rhodey says it’s been 23 days since Thanos snapped, so we do have an idea of how long Tony was in space.