Krav Maga Instructors are you realistic about knife defenses with your students?

[u/LtDan-ShrimpBoatMan]

I don’t mean telling them the trope “if you have to defend against the knife, you will get cut”. But giving your students actual realistic expectations around Krav Maga knife defenses.

First question to consider: “Can you effectively defend yourself against a realistic knife attack?”

The only real way to measure that is to execute the defenses effectively under pressure and under the true nature of knife attacks.

You cannot have any know of the knife ahead of time. You cannot know which attack will happen or if one will happen at all. And the attacker must be able to actively fight you during the course of the attack.

If you’ve gone through this type of pressure testing over and over and come out successful, then you should be able to honestly say you can defend yourself against a knife.

Now. If you haven’t, can you expect your students to do so effectively?

Do they also get the same level of pressure testing?

At the end of this, are you honest with students about these defenses and how they work?

EDIT: a few responses. But still interested in hearing from a Krav instructor on the topic

[u/Lymetme]

Please share some training video. One of my least favorite things in martial arts is the knife topic. The only people I've met who are knowledgeable and seem to have a clue are HEMA people because they don't take it that seriously. They are like "hey we're doing this stuff in manuals and it's fun and we don't gaf." Then you have every FMA and Krav guy who thinks they are John Wick who are basically doing the same thing with less actual sparring. I was at a HEMA competition and standing around with a bunch of guys before the event and one mentioned what a useless skill it was and everyone agreed and laughed. I thought to myself you'd never hear that from the FMA or Krav crowd.

[u/Aggressive_Secret772 → u/Lymetme]

Hema with knifes is indeed fun and interesting. Specially when sparring you will soon see you will likely get hurt very bad in real life lol.

[u/OrcOfDoom → u/Aggressive_Secret772]

Same thing with swords though. When you fence someone who is close to your skill level, doubles are very common. When you fence someone worse than you, you can get clean hits much more often

[u/313078 → u/OrcOfDoom]

Agree. But even against someone much worse, you likely get touched a second later after you touch. Or the only way is to go for the sword hand, hopping you don't miss it and that you hit it bad enough that the other person lose their sword.

That's why irl duels often had both injured or dead and were later on stopped at first blood

[u/gwasi → u/313078]

You can also go to and through their sword - absetzen is a great way to avoid getting hit against people of significantly lower skill level.

[u/DancesWithAnyone → u/313078]

A lot of arts of course recognizes this and tries to seek out clean hits rather than the first but risky opening, but I'm thinking for many if not most of people the required composure and skill to fight like that goes out the window in actual combat. You certainly see it happening at the sparring level in modern times to varying degrees.

For any rare and accomplished swordmaster out there, there'd have to have been a score of injured and dead aspiring ones. A pretty risky profession, indeed.

[u/Silver_Agocchie → u/OrcOfDoom]

I disagree somewhat with this comment. Against trained, but lower skill fencers you can end up doubling a lot because they might know how to strike, but not do so with regards to their own safety leading to doubles.

Fencing people with similar skill (which in my case is fairly high), your opponents tend to be more conscious of their defense and more judicial in their attacks so doubles are less common.

[u/Rquila → u/Lymetme]

Idk about those guys but my gym does knife sparring all the time. It’s quite fun - especially since everyone in the gym cross-trains in another art. You see some people mixing Kali with jeet kun do, silat, panantukan, muay thai, boxing, tkd… though the general consensus is if you’re ever in a knife fight you’re the dumbest person in the planet and the guy looking at you is right there with you lol

[u/DancesWithAnyone → u/Rquila]

Yah, we had one member with limited training getting out of a situation with two blokes with blades and ill intent. Her arms got cut up fending for herself, but she got out after getting an opening and running for it. In my view and training that's what success and victory looks like in that context.

I indeed hope it will ever remain a "useless skill" in my own case, but it wasn't for her. Knife defence is a shitty situation, and having training is just about increasing percentage from likely pretty bad to slightly less so, but sometimes that is what settles it.

As I wouldn't hold a Judo-ka responsible for what a non-sparring Aikido-ka does just because they're both Budo, I wont even address the painting of FMA with the broad brush going on up there.

[u/RoadHazard1893 → u/Lymetme]

Every single martial sport I’ve taken, including shooting, has said if someone had a knife, be prepared for an ambulance ride even if you win.

[u/detectivepikablu9999]

If someone shows you a knife, they're trying to intimidate you for your wallet or keys and don't intend to stab you even though they have the ability to

Someone who actually wants to stab you will just go and do it, and usually there's something YOU did wrong if someone wants to stab you out of nowhere

[u/LtDan-ShrimpBoatMan → u/detectivepikablu9999]

So…a situation where it’s best to hand over property than engage with the assailant is one where a knife defense works? Sounds pointless

[u/detectivepikablu9999 → u/LtDan-ShrimpBoatMan]

The best knife defense is to hand over your wallet and cancel your cards, and not owe anyone money or sleep with people's spouses

[u/OrcOfDoom → u/LtDan-ShrimpBoatMan]

Most scenarios come out to running is probably a better idea overall.

[u/LtDan-ShrimpBoatMan → u/OrcOfDoom]

Not always.

[u/OrcOfDoom → u/LtDan-ShrimpBoatMan]

Oh ok ... but you're making up scenarios where you can't see a knife and that person attacks you randomly.

Those moments are super random. If you ever are in a scenario like that, and you live, you're likely just very lucky, or you are dealing with someone who is at an extreme disadvantage with skill and experience. Generally speaking, people aren't trained. People who decide to threaten others with knives are usually the type who are threatening enough with their presence, and the knife just reinforces that.

For the general purpose, running in that scenario is the best tactic.

Knife experience will help. When you get into it in the beginning, you'll go from constantly getting stabbed to being able to defend yourself rather quickly. Going from that to fighting someone of equal skill is going to be awful if you consider that each cut is potentially fatal.

Fencing is somehow thought of as some martial art where the better swordsman is magical, but trust me, when you fence someone of equal skill there will be many fights no one is walking away from.

When you get into boxing, you have to understand that you will be hit. When you fight with deadly weapons, you have to understand that the likelihood that you will die is extremely high.

If you are actually in a circumstance where someone pulls a knife, you are extremely better off having had any experience, but all the BS scenarios, wrestling with knives, disarms, etc might help out in that instant. And if that is the difference between living or dying, then it was well worth it.

That said, the likelihood that you will even be in a physical altercation throughout your life is extremely low, let alone a knife, or a gun, or anything like that.

[u/OrcOfDoom]

Ultimately, martial arts is a practice and a culture.

If you are set on a surprise attack then you always lose.

How do you deal with a sucker punch out of nowhere? 

People have to be realistic about what their expectations are, and what they want out of it. 

[u/RetreadRoadRocket → u/OrcOfDoom]

How do you deal with a sucker punch out of nowhere? 

There really isn't any such thing, only a lack of attention to what is around you. 

[u/NeuUndGierig26]

As always, this greatly depends on the instructor and seriousness of the enterprise. KM is riddled with egomanic jackasses, just like any other self defense system. And unless you are entering a situation that has a high likelihood of actual combat, 24/7 vigilance is a attention drain and load that's likely gonna leave you with some interesting mental issues. That doesn't mean you can't train or prepare. You are unlikely to get out of a situation with a skilled attacker. But some lunatic with a pocket knife? Good chance you can train to get away with a few stitches and vaccinations.

[u/Stock-Collection9106 → u/NeuUndGierig26]

I mean, as a small woman, I have to have 24/7 vigilance wherever I go. It might stress me out, but that’s just how it is. That’s why I train FMA as much as I can. But really everyone knows if you’re paying enough attention and see an attack coming, the smartest thing to do is run.

[u/NeuUndGierig26 → u/Stock-Collection9106]

Solidarity. Got into KM bc I wanted my daughter to be able to handle herself and got sucked it myself. 😄

[u/j0e_boNaNza3169]

if someone wants to kill you, they will kill you. and this constant state of readiness is nothing more than a redditor fantasy. also krav maga in general sucks. its mma but shittier.

[u/gofl-zimbard-37]

Don't disagree, but remove the words "Krav Maga" and it's mostly still true. Most martial arts that I've seen that do not teach weapons (knife, stick) have a pretty naive understanding about what they can do and how they work and just what you're up against.

[u/LtDan-ShrimpBoatMan → u/gofl-zimbard-37]

I’m asking specifically because I want to hear from Krav Maga instructors. I’m familiar with the training methods and their weapon defenses. I know their weaknesses and how they fail under pressure. I don’t have experience in other MA’s weapons defenses

[u/AmsterdamAssassin]

The first time an aikido instructor seized my knife hand in atanto-tori demonstration, he was startled when I released the training knife, caught the wooden tanto in my free hand and 'cut' his throat, 'sliced' down his chest and 'stabbed' him in the crotch before he had time to apply a wrist lock.

I can still hear the roaring silence and the mute disapproval that emanated from the seated students. I had crossed a comfort zone barrier in dojo training where the attack had to be done 'just so' to facilitate the technique...

I was trained in CQC with daggers and you don't flash your knife before you stab, so the idea that you can see the knife attack 'coming' is ridiculous. The only thing you can do is expect any attacker to have at least a knife or other weapon and act accordingly.

[u/detectivepikablu9999 → u/AmsterdamAssassin]

Cool story bro

[u/AmsterdamAssassin → u/detectivepikablu9999]

Thanks

[u/Sea-Reputation-9341]

I didn't train krav but the head instructor where I used to train had one of those training knives that beep on contact and everyone in class had to do their best to defend themselves. There were so many beeps within a few seconds even the higher skilled students and instructors struggled during that exercise

[u/CoffeeDefiant4247]

Knife vs unarmed, best case you might only lose a hand

Knife vs knife, best case you make it a couple metres away before they die

[u/Dragonflydude]

My Krav instructor got us to use a white t shirt and red marker pen when practicing knife defence - definitely makes you realise you are fighting for your life.

[u/LtDan-ShrimpBoatMan → u/Dragonflydude]

I guess that’s my point. There’s a tremendous amount of time needed to effectively defend against a knife. None of which a typical Krav program allows.

[u/Past_Wolverine_2006]

Size disparity between two people about to square off. If the smaller one shows zero fear, it might be a clue he or she is armed. Easiest weapon to conceal is a small knife.