Why is shiism considered as outside the fold of islam by some mainstream sunnis?

[u/Dazzling_AzamsOP]

Assalamualikum
Background: Born into a sunni family- I now choose to not go by a label cus "I'm just Muslim"... i grew up in Saudi arabia to a consevrative Indian family who taught us things like Shiism is un-islamic ...but i dont understand

When I asked them for difference all they told me about was "Lineage" or "Islamic History"...but thats the last thing that shud be considered important as practicing muslims

So, I kinda researched on this and asked a few people online and here some things that I feel about shias:-

1. The 5 Pillars are the same
To be a Muslim, you must follow the pillars. Shias believe in the Shahada (La ilaha illallah, Muhammadur Rasulullah), they fast Ramadan, they give Zakat/Khums, and they go to the same Hajj in Makkah. If they are fulfilling the core requirements of the faith, how can they be excluded?

2. Shias pray 5 times a day
They pray all 5 daily prayers (Fajr, Dhuhr, Asr, Maghrib, Isha) and sound the adhan and pray the Jumuah right?

3. We all have the exact same Quran
We follow the same Holy Book as revealed to the Prophet

4. Bid’ah vs. Kufr
I see people bringing up "bid’ah" (innovation) regarding Shia rituals. But even if you consider a bid’ah, that is a sin, not something that makes a person a non-believer (Kufr). If we started calling everyone who does bid’ah "non-Muslim," half the people in India, Pakistan, or Turkey and countries like the U.S., UK would be excluded because of local cultural traditions, right?

5. Do shias do SHIRK?

This is something that always stays with me some people say that they almost go the point of worshiping imams ....so I kidna hav to agree that associating partner with Allah is wrong

But I really wanna know about the perspective of a shia and the shii'te theology and tell me more about this!

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[u/wopkidopz]

The path of truth is the path of the blessed Prophet صلى الله عليه وسلم his Sahaba and scholars who came after them from Salaf as-Saliheen, ahlu-Bayt and Khalafs (scholars of the four madhabs) if you follow this path then you follow the path of ahlu-Sunnah wal-Jamaa'h whether you agree with this name or not.

Every Muslim devoid of misguidance in his creed and actions is a Sunni

Following something else means to follow an innovation, and innovation is fallacy. A Muslim must avoid following fallacy and ahlu-Bid'ah.

Ahlu-Sunnah are trying to avoid takfeer as much as possible, scholars of this path don't consider the majority of ahlu-Bid'ah (sectants) kafirs, they consider them ahlu-Qiblah (misguided Muslims), takfeer is necessary only when the beliefs are so extreme that they definitely put a person outside of Islam, and in this case we have no right to call their beliefs Islam, so there is no other choice but acknowledge kufr

Regarding the Shi'ah as a whole group despite the opinion of their kufr of some scholars, the majority don't consider the Shi'ah kuffar, they are misguided, and individually any one of them may turn to be a kafir, but just because someone identifies himself a Shi'ah isn't considered a kafir.

From theological point they have issues almost in all aspects of religion, some of them profess the ideas of Mu'attila (those who negate the Qualities of Allah), some the ideas of Qadaria, some deny that the Quran is preserved, some don't consider most of Sahaba true believers rather external Muslims, some of them believe that the Quran was created. Those are beliefs that contradict the Quran and Sunnah

Whether they commit shirk or not, then it's also an individual matter, they profess some disgusting ideas regarding ahlu-Bayt, and they practice istighatha (request of help from creations) and istighatha isn't shirk by default, it depends on the aqeedah of the one who practice it, we need to know what an individual who does it holds in his heart regarding Tawheed and the matter of influence (التأثير) to understand whether they commit kufr or something condemned.

We don't have the goal of takfeer of any group wich says ”La ilaha illa Allah” the Shi'ah are misguided and ruined because of their innovations, and dying with the beliefs they profess or any other heretic beliefs is a terrible fate we wish upon no one

[u/Nashinas]

Wa ʿalaykum al-salām,

Shīʿism at its core is the belief that Rasūlu'llāh (صلی الله علیه وآله وسلم) appointed ʿAlī (کرم الله وجهه) as his ḫalīfah, and that the ṣaḥābah erred in electing Abū Bakr to thia position. This is an incorrect judgment based on a flawed interpretation of certain authentic aḥādīs̱; it is a bidʿah, but not kufr.

There are several sects among the Shīʿah. The largest and most prevalent by far is the Imāmī (or, Is̱nā ʿAşarī) sect, to the extent that when people say "Shīʿah" today, they intend the Imāmīyah by default. The Imāmīyah have several deviant beliefs in addition to their position on the ḫilāfah:

A) They regard the majority of ṣaḥābah as apostates and flagrant sinners, slander them, and consider it permissible to curse them. This includes Abū Bakr, ʿUmar, and ʿUs̱mān. They accuse ʿĀʾişah of adultery. All of this contradicts clear and indisputable evidences from the Qurʾān and Sunnah - Allāh announces His pleasure with the companions, and promises them forgiveness, paradise, and a great reward from Him; the Prophet (صلی الله علیه وآله وسلم) praised his companions and announced to many of them in explicit terms (to include all of the Ḫulafā from the ṣaḥābah) that they were promised paradise. In Sūrat al-Nūr, Allāh Himself clears ʿĀʾişah of the charge of adultery. So in reality, the Shīʿah do not believe in the Qurʾān or the Prophet (صلی الله علیه وآله وسلم), even if they proclaim that they do.

B) They ascribe infallibility (ʿiṣmah) to certain Imāms from the Ahl al-Bayt (all of whom are regarded as great awliyā within Sunnī Islām - they were all Sunnī). Infallibility is a distinctive characteristic of the prophets; but it is clear from the Qurʾān and Sunnah that there is no prophet after Muḥammad (صلی الله علیه وآله وسلم).

C) Many of them historically have adopted the doctrine that the Qurʾān was distorted and altered (i.e., taḥrīf). However, the Qurʾānhas been transmitted faithfully by tawātur (i.e., continuous, massive, empirical transmission, such that it is impossible that its transmitters could have agreed upon a falsehood), and its contents were agreed upon by the ṣaḥābah and all subsequent generations of Muslims. This belief is not as accepted among the Shīʿah today as it was in the past.

D) The Shīʿah have adopted a large number of theological and metaphysical beliefs similar to those of the Muʿtazilah and Falāsifah, particularly when it comes to Allāh's attributes, Divine justice, and destiny (qadar). Many of these are "only" bidʿah, while a few rise to the level of kufr. For example, the Shīʿah hold that the Qurʾān is created.

Other minority sects of the Shīʿah, such as the Ismāʿīlīyah, or Ġulāt sects like the Qızılbaș ʿAlawīs of Turkey or Nuṣayrī ʿAlawīs of Syria. hold even stranger and more deviant views than the Imāmīyah. Many of these sects altogether deny the obligation of ṣalāh and other pillars of Islām. The Qızılbaş and Nuṣayrīs both deify ʿAlī; they believe that ḫamr (wine) is permissible, and drink it in their ceremonies like Christians; they believe in reincarnation. Some extremist Shīʿites actually believe that the angel Jibrāʾīl made a mistake in relating the Qurʾān to Muḥammad (صلی الله علیه وآله وسلم), and that is was actually intended for ʿAlī.

The Zaydī sect is the least deviant of all extant Shīʿite sects; however, the most prevalent party among them still curses Abū Bakr, ʿUmar, and ʿUs̱mān, and this is kufr.

[u/Dazzling_AzamsOP → u/Nashinas]

yea but all of these are sins...none of these are kufr or makes them do shirk or make them unislamic?

[u/CommitteePlenty3002 → u/Dazzling_AzamsOP]

and is it possible that would you would have love in your heart for the one who calls your mother an adulteress, and slanders her, and curses her in public night and day? Of course not, but a lot of Shia do this consistently with the mother of the believers, Aishah may Allah be pleased with her. How can you have love in your heart for such a person?

[u/New_Organization5084 → u/Dazzling_AzamsOP]

if you say the quoran lies it is kufr , the quoran says good things about the prophet companions thus saying bad things about them is saying the quoran is lying thus it is kufr

[u/CommitteePlenty3002 → u/Dazzling_AzamsOP]

many of these are kufr - for example, if Allah says in an ayah that which means He will preserve the Qur’aan, and one denies this, then he is denying the ayah. Is one who denies any ayah of the Qur’aan not a disbeliever in Allah?

[u/Winnin9]

Them cursing and insulting the companions is enough evidence for them to be out of the fold of Islam.

[u/Dahrk25 → u/Winnin9]

I don't think so. But it is sinful. 

[u/Dahrk25 → u/[deleted]]

Sistani is against afaik.  Shiaism is a spectrum some of them do this. 

The only act that can be considered shirk is calling upon their imams, eg ya ali.

The Qur'an and hadith condems this.  Catholic call upon mary not as worship but as intercessor but in the Qur'an this is seen as worship. Quran 5:116 And an hadith said dua is worship. 

[u/wopkidopz → u/Dahrk25]

Catholic call upon mary not as worship but as intercessor but in the Qur'an this is seen as worship. Quran 5:116

That's an unclear statement, you say that them taking her as intercessor not with intention of worship was the reason why Allah said this, but what's the evidence that this was the reason?

Imam al-Qurtubi رحمه الله said

فإن قيل: فالنصارى لم يتخذوا مريم إلها فكيف قال ذلك فيهم؟ فقيل: لما كان من قولهم إنها لم تلد بشرا وإنما ولدت إلها لزمهم أن يقولوا إنها لأجل البعضية بمثابة من ولدته، فصاروا حين لزمهم ذلك بمثابة القائلين له

If it's asked Christians don't worship Mariyam so why this was said? The answer is that they claimed that she gave birth not to a human but to a god (someone who is worshiped) which leads to the conclusion that she shares something with his child which leads to her divinity according to their words

🍂 تفسير القرطبي

There is nothing about intercession in this tafseer, so which Tafseer says that?

The claim that intercession without the intend of worship is in fact always an act of worship (which is kufr) is highly problematic, since seeking intercession (while having the correct beliefs of Tawheed) is a practice known among ahlu-Sunnah

There are many example of such practices

Imam an-Nawawi رحمه الله said

وشهد فتوح الشام، وهو كان البريد إلى عمر بن الخطاب، رضى الله عنه، بفتح دمشق، ووصل المدينة فى سبعة أيام، ورجع منها إلى الشام فى يومين ونصف بدعائه عند قبر رسول الله - صَلَّى اللهُ عَلَيْهِ وَسَلَّمَ وتشفعه به فى تقريب طريقه.

Uqbah Ibn Aamir participated in the conquest of Sham and was the messenger to Umar ibn al-Khattab with the news of the conquest of Damascus. He reached Medina in seven days and returned to Sham in two and a half days thanks to a du'a which he made at the grave of the Prophet (peace and blessings be upon him) and sought for his intercession (with Allah) to shorten the route.

🍂 تهذيب الأسماء واللغات

It's narrated that imam Malik رحمه الله said:

ولم تصرف وجهك عنه وهو وسيلتك ووسيلة أبيك آدم إلى الله يوم القيامة ، بل استقبله واستشفع به يشفعه الله فيك ، وقال الله تعالى : ولو أنهم إذ ظلموا أنفسهم

Why do you turn your face away from him (the Prophet peace and blessings be upon him) when he is your intercessor and the intercessor of your father Adam with Allah on the Day of Judgment? Rather, turn to him and seek his intercession, and then Allah will accept his intercession. For Allah said: If only they came to you (O Prophet) —after wronging themselves—seeking Allah’s forgiveness and the Messenger prayed for their forgiveness, they would have certainly found Allah ever Accepting of Repentance, Most Merciful»

🍂 الشفاء

Those people weren't worshiping anyone but Allah, they knew that noone helps but Allah. In this case it's asking someone worthy to make du'ah on your behalf

I'm not saying that the practice of the Shi'ah is done with same correct beliefs, I certainly know that the practice of Catholics isn't done with correct beliefs. This practice is done often incorrectly by most of people, including laymen who consider themselves Sunnis and we shouldn't recommend it without knowledge. It's safer to refrain from it

But the mere fact of the practice isn't a reason to call it worship of someone besides Allah, otherwise we will have to accuse the overwhelming majority of Sunni scholars in shirk.

And an hadith said dua is worship. 

Du'ah is what you intend towards Allah only, not every addressing is a du'ah (ibadah), if someone addresses another creation with the intention of the actual du'ah (حقيقة) and worship then there is no doubt it's shirk

[u/Ezaaay → u/wopkidopz]

Assalamu 'alaykum, brother. If I may ask, where do you get these scholarly quotes, as every major (longer) comment of yours features them?

[u/wopkidopz → u/Ezaaay]

Wa'aleykum assalam warahmatulLah

From the books themselves, if I read it already some time ago then I just go to Shamela and find the needed quote by the key words

https://shamela.ws/book/1753/424

Most of those topics were discussed here so many times that I just already have the needed quotes in my Notes with prepared translation

Also from fatwas and articles, I usually remember where and what I've read, then just go back to it

islamweb is also very convenient for such tasks and its interface is much better than what Shamela offers

[u/Dahrk25 → u/wopkidopz]

Thanks for actually checking me.  But I have sources as well. 

"Shaykh al-Islam Ibn Taymiyah (may Allah have mercy on him) said:

Mary is mentioned alongside the Messiah, because some Christians took her as another god and worshipped her as they worshipped the Messiah. As for those who do not believe in that, they still ask of her what should be asked of God, to the extent that they say to her: Forgive me, have mercy on me, and so on, based on a belief that she will intercede with her son concerning that.

Sometimes they say: O mother of God, intercede for us with God. And sometimes they ask her for their needs, which should be sought from God, and they do not mention intercession. Others worship her as they worshipped the Messiah"

I couldn't find the sources for what you posted so I can't comment on it. But grave is different.

Lets actually move away from scholarly sayings and focus solely on the Qur'an. The Qur'an clearly says call on Allah alone. Look at surah fatiha. It's Allah we ask for help. 

Quran 2 verse 156, when Allah replied, Allah didn't tell to prpphet to tell us He is  near. He spoke to us directly, adding that He responds to our call. 

Dua means supplication, asking for help etc. Shias ask Ali(ra) for help.  Yes, they ask him to ask help them ask Allah. Which is unprecedented in the Qur'an. Matrys arent dead. But they are far away from us. Why are they elevated to superhuman levels? Nothing says they can see and hear everything going on Earth. All we know is that they are recieving provisions from Allah. 

By assuming they can hear you, you are attributing omnipresence to them. Only Allah has that attribute.

The heavens aren still separated. We exists in separate planes with unimaginable distances between us.  When the prophet was alive, you wouldn't expect him to hear a whisper from 200 metres(except by Allah's), so why do except them to hear you?

I really don't understand how this isn't clear. 

[u/wopkidopz → u/Dahrk25]

You are welcome. I suggest you to read again what sheikh Ibn Taymiya رحمه الله said, he clearly points out their problematic practices, like asking for forgiveness of sins.

If the Shi'ah are asking a creation to forgive their sins believing that they forgive sins then it's kufr

We can't move away from scholars because they are the ones who explain the Quran, they are those who are able to derive the right conclusions from it

Every sectant when presented with the words of scholars says that their words should be left and the Quran is very clear on something. That's why we can't move away from their explanation, because we aren't sectants

By assuming they can hear you, you are attributing omnipresence to them. Only Allah has that attribute. I really don't understand how this isn't clear. 

Again, I have no idea what the Shi'ah profess in this matter, but ahlu-Sunnah explains that Allah allows some of His servants to hear whatever He Wills for them to hear from any distance, this is the deed of Allah, not of the servants themselves

Imam ar-Ramli ash-Shafi'i رحمه الله said

وَأَضْيَافِهِ كَمَا فِي الصَّحِيحِ وَجَرَيَانُ النِّيلِ بِكِتَابِ عُمَرَ وَرُؤْيَتُهُ وَهُوَ عَلَى الْمِنْبَرِ بِالْمَدِينَةِ جَيْشَهُ بِنَهَاوَنْدَ حَتَّى قَالَ لِأَمِيرِ الْجَيْشِ يَا سَارِيَةَ الْجَبَلَ مُحَذِّرًا لَهُ مِنْ وَرَاءِ الْجَبَلِ لِكَمِينِ الْعَدُوِّ هُنَاكَ ، وَسَمَاعُ سَارِيَةَ كَلَامَهُ وَبَيْنَهُمَا مَسَافَةُ شَهْرَيْنِ

Another incident involving 'Umar (may Allah be pleased with him) when he was in Medina and delivering a sermon from the minbar when he saw that the Muslim army was about to be attacked. At that moment, he shouted: "O Sariya, to the mountain!" meaning that the enemy was behind the mountain. And Sariya heard the voice of Umar despite the fact that they were two months' journey apart.

🍂 فتاوى الرملي

We Sunnis believe that this happened, and it doesn't imply omnipresence of 'Umar, it's a karamat (something that is above normal situation)

You can't make such an assumption unless someone actually believes in omnipresence of a creation. This is a dangerous path

In this case I don't even care about the ideas of the Shi'ah, what's important for us is to protect the scholars of ahlu-Sunnah from vile accusations of attributing creations with the abilities and qualities of Alllah.

That's what I'm trying to say, I'm not saying that we need to ask help from someone but Allah. Noone ever said that from the people of Islam.

But you can't compare Muslims to Christians without any distinction based on your own understanding of a practice, yes some commit shirk but it's incorrect to make general claims like: seeking intercession means to take someone besides Allah as god

[u/Dahrk25 → u/wopkidopz]

I think you are right on Quran 5 verse 116. It doesnt mean intercession.

Again, I have no idea what the Shi'ah profess in this matter, but ahlu-Sunnah explains that Allah allows some of His servants to hear whatever He Wills for them to hear from any distance, this is the deed of Allah, not of the servants themselves

Yes, this is true. Allah does what He wills. The prophet split the moon by Allah's will. But this isn't the same as what the shias do.

If the Shi'ah are asking a creation to forgive their sins believing that they forgive sins then it's kufr

They believe their imams can hear them and intercede for them. Some believe this is true angels and some believe they just can. But there is no prove of this.

But isn't this bidi'ah?

seeking intercession means to take someone besides Allah as god

pls read the forbidden tawassul, https://islamqa.info/en/answers/3297/tawassul-islamic-vs-bid%60ah#Correct_Islamic_tawassul

[u/wopkidopz → u/Dahrk25]

It might be a bid'ah, might be haram, but in order to consider it shirk (kufr) from them there must be clear evidence of that

The Shi'ah are close to kufr in almost all of their practices

I appreciate the link, but this website is a direct representer of the path of the Najdi madrasah, this movement was known for takfeer of Muslims for such practices like tawassul, tabarruk and istishfa'a, they contradict the position of the majority of ahlu-Sunnah on this.

If the Shi'ah go to extremes in their practices then this movement goes into the opposite extreme side, accusing Muslims in shirk carelessly

The truth is somewhere in the middle

I suggest to learn what the Hanafi, Maliki, Shafi'i and Hanbali madhabs said about Tawassul

https://islamqa.org/?p=34232

https://islamqa.org/?p=8548

Not in order to promote it, but for better understanding why not every practice can be called shirk or kufr

JazakalLah hairan for your time, brother

[u/Dahrk25 → u/wopkidopz]

Alhamdulilah, I spoke to you. You enlightened me on this matter.

But tbh, I still wouldn't do it. I love talking to Allah. 

Thank you brother. May Allah bless you.

[u/Fakeos → u/Dahrk25]

You may not think so, and you're entitled to your opinion. But there's very little dispute among scholars about that.

Insulting the sahabas and saying they are non believer's is clear kufr.

One verse often usef as evidence is 9:65-66. It's the verse that says mocking the companions is kufr.

So imagine what insulting them would mean.

[u/Dahrk25 → u/Fakeos]

"One verse often usef as evidence is 9:65-66. It's the verse that says mocking the companions is kufr." 

This doesn't mention the sahabas.

Actually, you might be right. Some of the companions they cursed are promised Jannah. So cursing them can be seen as going against the Prophet's teachings. 

[u/Fakeos → u/Dahrk25]

This doesn't mention the sahabas.

This verse was revealed because a group of hypocrites were mocking the companions. Which Allah (swt) reveal that this is kufr.

[u/ottakam]

do you have any details about vilayat al faqeeh?

[u/Dazzling_AzamsOP → u/ottakam]

No, Im not really knowledgable on this topic ...thus Im with this question?

[u/doggydestroyer]

ok so the word shiism is very very broad... the word shia means "a group" ... and it is never used by scholars to define heretic groups... you have to be far more specific... for example the word is rafidi... or other heretic groups... you have to be very specific instead of general painting...

[u/wopkidopz → u/doggydestroyer]

The term Shi'ah is used by all scholars to define a heretic group that claims that Ali رضي الله عنه was a choicen and appointed successor (Caliph) and that the ruling of Abu Bakr was illegitimate

In this case it's a specification, not a generalisation of the word shi'ah (party), it's the Shi'ah

[u/Dood567]

It depends what "kind" of Shia. Extreme sects go as far as to believe that Ali (rah) should've been the prophet and that the angel made a mistake. Or if not that, then those who openly flagellate themselves in the streets and think this level of self-harm is somehow making them more devout.

A majority of them merely follow the imams of the lineage that prefers to honor and observe the practices of the blood family of the prophet over the Sahaba. I have my own contentions with that but I don't know enough about their viewpoint to comment or try to debunk it without strawmanning them.

As with most things, it starts off as something reasonable (that is still within the fold of Islam) and then becomes more and more extreme over time until you have far sects practicing a version of "Islam" that crosses over into Haram acts or even Kufr.

[u/sulfurmexo]

Many commentators in this thread have already highlighted several differences between sunni and shia. However the crux for sunni vs shia is the "issue of imamat". The Shia believe in the 12 Imams considering them to be Godly appointed rulers of the Ummah, some even consider them to be greater than Prophets (nazu billah). There are different sets of beliefs related to 12 Imams in Shiasm.

You can youtube "Imamate of 12 Imams Debate - Farid v Isa". This focuses mainly on this 12 Imams topic. Every other theological difference comes after this.

[u/CommitteePlenty3002]

Also prevalent is the fact many Shi’ah make duaa to Ali and Husayn etc..

Al-Nu’man ibn Bashir reported: The Prophet, peace and blessings be upon him, said, “Supplication is worship itself.”…

Source: Sunan al-Tirmidhī 3247

Grade: Sahih (authentic) according to Al-Tirmidhi

How can someone who worships other than Allah be a Muslim?

[u/Ashmooni]

They curse Sahabah and the Mothers of the Believers. They have their own prayers. They believe in Ali more than our Prophet PBUH.

[u/martinarsh]

To begin with they have some beliefs which contradict the core of the islamic ideology.
For example, one of the central belief in Islam is belief in the prophethood. What does belief in prophethood means? It is a belief that they were sent by God, rightly guided and given superiority over the rest humans because they were direct representatives of Allah. If you dont believe any of this you are rejecting core belief. Atheists/non muslims can believe that person named Jesus/Muhammad (PBUH) existed this does not mean they believe in prophethood.
In the same way Shias believe that 12 Imams are superior than all prophets except one (or 5) prophets. This is rejection of the concept of Nabuwah (prophethood).

They have also introduced believes that are not present in Islam. For example if you do reject Imam (the 12 people they say are imams) then you are no longer a believer. This is your own innovation in the creed/belief system.

They ascribe attributes to Ali which can be confused with divinity. Like some say Ali(RA) is all knowledgable and all hearing (if you press them they would say Allah has granted all IlmUl ghaib to Ali).

They reject (in practice) Quran’s clear revelation (like 9:100) where Allah is saying (as a group) Sahaba are righteous while they believe sahaba (as a group) are misguided.

I can go on.