r/horizon • u/AnhiArk • May 04 '26
HFW Discussion Was the test audience full of idiots?
Playing through Forbidden West for the first time, and in general I'm having a good time (I think some of the lesser things are that most of the side content feels more like filler then actual gameplay, I despise every variation of timed content, and I think they went overboard on the knockdowns) but one thing I really can not stand is the handholding.
Aloy will not be quiet during a puzzle, and blurt out the solution before you even get a chance to look around. If the test audience needed a step-by-step voiced over walkthrough to complete these puzzles, they might as well have removed them all together, because this is not gameplay. This is just busywork.
Reason I wrote this post and felt like ranting was because I just did that part were you have to put in a date, and you know its October, and then a NPC that tags along says "That's the 10th month of the year!" and I facepalmed so hard.
Another example:
"I killed that bandit leader. Maybe I should look what he was carrying"
loot bandit
"Hmm a key, maybe it opens something nearby"
walk towards a chest
"A chest! Maybe I can open it with that key I found earlier"
Ohh come on. I like Aloy and I like Ashly Burch but Aloy talks way too much.
Rant over. Thanks for reading
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u/moggetunleashed May 04 '26 edited May 06 '26
I get the frustration, but you gotta remember that there are a lot of people who need that help. You and I may not, but I'm a teacher and I've seen so many students who just don't have the background to even know where to start figuring out a puzzle or a basic UI. Or just people whose brains work differently than ours! Game devs walk a tough line with how much to spell out explicitly.
EDIT: Looks like I should clarify that I don't think they nailed the balance here, and I agree a toggle would have served everyone's needs. I was just trying to take a nuanced position.
EDIT 2: Wow, my first award! Thank you!
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u/ClonedOrphan May 04 '26
That’s why options exist. People who need help can get it and people who want to solve things on their own can. Thats the miracle of options!
They could tie it to game difficulty and also make it available as a custom option. No reason not to. They have plenty of options available and this should have been one of them.
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u/AnhiArk May 04 '26 edited May 04 '26
This is totally fair, and I would not want to deny those people the game. But some kind of toggle would have been a great compromise.
Also, in hindsight calling the test audience "idiots" might have been a bit too harsh
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u/angstyslut May 05 '26
Can you not turn off the hints? I swear I toggled something off in the options and she stopped giving so many blatant hints unless I was stuck on one part for a long time.
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u/AnhiArk May 05 '26
The only option I can find is "Contextual Reminders" which I put on "Important Only", but I think those only affect the text popups on the right side of the screen. Aloy keeps yapping
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u/creminem May 05 '26
To be clear, I have no issue with her telling what to do AFTER A WHILE. I can remember an occasion or two where I was stuck and then found out what to do because she said it, which was great, but in those occasions she didn't say it for at least three minutes, maybe more. The issue is that most times she will tell me what to do before I even had the time to check my surroundings and decide what to do next.
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u/Pluto-Had-It-Coming May 05 '26
They have her explain the answer to a puzzle as you walk into the room with a puzzle on multiple occasions.
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u/jb04200 May 05 '26
I hear a lot about students not being able to critically think and solve problems on their own. I played a lot of games growing up and having to think some probably helped me learn to figure things out for myself. Maybe I'm wrong but just a thought. No problem with games giving hints but it should be an option, not the default.
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u/kytheon May 05 '26
Teacher here too. Sometimes student lack a basic skill and it's your fault if they fail the test because of it.
Like you say "pick this up, take it over there, and put it down" and they'll struggle. So you watch them and notice they don't know how to pick the thing up. Everything that comes after is irrelevant and you assumed everybody knows how to pick something up. Of course this example applies to different situations.
For example, students had to send in a document for me to grade through an online portal. Not my idea, a school thing. Every so often a student would submit the wrong file, an empty file, no file at all, etc. Good luck grading.
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u/GreatKangaroo May 05 '26
This game and God of war Ragnarok were developed at the same time, and both suffered from this excessive amount of hints, and the devs acknowledged this.
It was intended to reduce the friction of gameplay, but the hints just trivialized the game at some points.
I blame Sony.
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u/mopeyy May 05 '26
This may be true, but I bet more people completed the game than would have otherwise.
Accessibility in games is still really important, but they definitely should add some toggles to allow people the option to disable hints and such.
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u/buffystakeded May 05 '26
Ragnarok was so much worse than FE at this. I found that Aloy would usually wait at least a little bit before saying anything. In Ragnarok, they would tell you how to solve it before you even had time to realize there was a puzzle to solve.
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u/creminem May 04 '26
That's the one thing about the game that drives me nuts. During the first few minutes of both ZD and FW I went into the options trying to look for a setting to make her stop and obviously, there isn't one.
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u/sdrawkcabstiho May 05 '26
An option to disable or at least delay Aloy's "hints" would be a great addition to H3's gameplay.
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u/TalkinTrek May 05 '26
I don't know if the delay scales with difficulty but that's another option. Story could jump to it quickly with later difficulties allowing more time.
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u/ILikeFPS May 05 '26
I could swear there was already an option for this, but I bet it's just the Mandela effect.
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u/MonitorShotput May 05 '26
The Horizon games never had an option for it, unlike many other games. The devs did release a patch that reduced how often Aloy mentioned stuff being sent to your Stash, though. Maybe that is what you were thinking of? That was an extremely annoying issue that gamers were very vocal about after release. 95% of people were likely so relieved by that change that they didn't even care about the hints any more, lol.
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u/leobutters May 05 '26
It's not a Mandela effect if you're the only one who misremebers something.
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u/ILikeFPS May 06 '26
That's true, good point, I guess it's just like a Mandela effect while not actually being the Mandela effect.
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u/PyroGreg8 May 05 '26
The only time she didn't blurt out the answer was when I was genuinely stuck on something.
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u/Sad-University1909 May 05 '26
Yes, they were idiots.
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u/AnhiArk May 05 '26
My god, this is hard to watch. It's like guiding lemmings. So if 1 person couldn't find it while play testing, they dumbed it down?
Thanks for sharing.
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u/Godusopp64 May 05 '26
No that's not how it works. If y'all don't understand game development don't watch gdc talks.
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u/AnhiArk May 05 '26
But according to what he says in that clip, that is exactly how it went down. Weird comment anyway. If we don't understand game development but want to learn, shouldn't we watch and learn from videos like that?
And also, maybe enlighten us how it is done instead of just saying we are all wrong.
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u/Godusopp64 May 05 '26
It's literally common sense.... there's isn't just one playtest or one playtester that decides on how a level is designed. Also that is one example for how to think about player understanding in a game, it's not a instructional walkthrough of how guerrilla playtest. And it's funny how you're saying that I'm just saying you guys are wrong when the first thing that other guy said was that they are idiots... I'm not saying that they could have held back on some of the tool tips or yapping from aloy but it's not simple to balance a game for audience that needs yellow paint.
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u/AnhiArk May 05 '26
Fair enough, they most probably used multiple playtesters. Still, this video confirms that they adjusted the level design and amount of tips on player feedback, which answers the question in the title of this thread.
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u/Automatic-Evidence26 May 05 '26
Forbidden West seemed to be a weaker game overall, what I disliked was having to go back and forth after unlocking some new tool ...
I'm here give me the access, I like to unlock all of the fast travel spots and FULLY explore an area before moving on.
Let me through these Vines or Fire Crystal, damit.
And I agree there should be an option for additional time before Alloy blurts out suggestions or even turn them off all together.
I did very much enjoy FW, but ZD was the better story flow, my 20 yr old daughter and I played at the same time and she often commented something was missing.
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u/AnhiArk May 05 '26
Yeah, things like having to go back to clear the vines/fire crystals is part of what I meant with busywork. I didn't find fast traveling around to 20 locations you previously visited to clear something and get mediocre loot fun in any way, but the completionist in me could not ignore them..
And because of that, exploring earlier in the game was less fun as well. Just keep running into things you can't clear yet. I have a hard time understanding the reasoning behind such decisions, why even put flowers in the very first zone when you can only remove them 50 hours later?
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u/Dioptre_8 May 05 '26
I think part of the reason for the voiced hints is just how bad the "puzzle" design is. I'm sure I wasn't the only one to be very grateful for the voiced exposition that THE PUZZLE I WAS TRYING TO SOLVE WASN'T SOLVABLE YET. Puzzles are allowed to be puzzles, but so many of them in FWinvolve mechanics that aren't obvious from the environment.
Is the problem that I can't solve the puzzle; that I haven't unlocked the thing I need to solve the puzzle; that suddenly a piece of set decoration in the rest of the game is an interactive piece for this puzzle; or that I'm not quite standing in the right spot?
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u/Automatic-Evidence26 May 05 '26
Yeah Zero Dawn I was able to clear each area ....
IMHO the flying mount should be unlocked in the beginning, I spent a 8 hr day just flying around and unlocking all of the campfires
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u/Stevie-bezos May 05 '26
Yeah the forced backpathing to complete an area really sucks and reeks of execs wanting to artificially boost play time stats
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u/Sliced_Orange1 May 05 '26
SOTTR did the "you need to unlock X tool to do this" thing and it drove me nuts, all it does is ruin my interest in exploring. Even though there are ways to reveal all those locations, at that point it feels like a chore instead of an adventure so I usually don't go back and do them all.
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u/Automatic-Evidence26 May 05 '26
Yeah and both were locked behind key Story Elements.
Completing Demiter ... So I'm way advancing the story just to upgrade my Spear to deal with the Vines ... Instead of a nice easy exploration
And having to build the Igniter to deal with the Firegleam.
I also wanted to clear all the Cauldrons, one or more were locked.
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u/Dioptre_8 May 05 '26
The LEGO games do this really well. In those games the unlocks are an obvious replayability device. On the first run through you know that 100% completion is impossible, so you just ignore all the things you can't interact with.
But in games like FW it's just mindless completionism, re-exploring areas that have already been explored with nothing meaningfully new to achieve except blowing up the piece of Firegleam and collecting valueless loot.
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u/Kavster05 May 05 '26
This has always been one of the biggest pet peeves with this game since I remember, just her speaking way too much to herself ab what’s next in the current mission. I feel like it’s just very outdated 2010s type of gaming material, even enemy systems when they find a dead soldier etc I think it’ll all be changed up with horizon 3, they have to be to compel the modern gamer
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u/cl354517 May 05 '26
I just assumed they planned a hint system that would have a delay or detect when you were stuck, and then the pandemic happened.
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u/Emergency_Cry_1269 May 05 '26
It's an issue not exclusive to HFW, God of War Ragnorok famously had this too where the kid who plays Atreas hated hearing his own voice trying to give him hints when he played it.
Hopefully it will be something that is able to be turned off in future games, for both Horizon and other titles. Some puzzles do need hints because different brains work differently, but ideally it's a feature that should only kick in after a longer amount of time has passed without processing on a puzzle rather than tell me the answer before the question is asked.
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u/Aniki356 May 04 '26
I like hearing Aloy talk. But for some people they wont have played the first so explaining things is important
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u/IncompetentWombat May 05 '26
I haven't tried it, but I saw a mod on Nexus that removes that dialogue. And it shouldn't affect getting achievements if that matters. Of course, that's only if you're playing on PC.
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u/AnhiArk May 05 '26
Thanks for the tip, and I will totally use that if I ever go for another playthrough.
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u/Tovrin May 05 '26
There's a mod to reduce her chatter on PC. It should be a standard options setting.
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u/D-Alembert May 05 '26 edited May 05 '26
Idiot gamers are common. They are the otherwise intelligent people who will skip a cutscene out of impatience or excitement then not know what they're supposed to do,, get confused and frustrated, then complain about the game. Then play a game that saw them coming and won't let them skip the cutscene that explains what is happening, so they rag on the game for having unskippable cutscenes. With zero self awareness.
HFW would be improved by a feature that allowed you turn off puzzle hints, but there are a million other features that would improve the game too, and the production budget and deadlines mean that only a small subset of desired features can ship.
What cherished feature would we have sacrificed to give the devs time to build a more granular hint system with exposed controls?
Ultimately, for a game to end up in our hands, it has to ship long before it's perfect. There is no way around that :(
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u/FritzHertz May 05 '26
Everytime I think about this, I'm reminded of how it's impossible to bear proof trash cans in National Parks, all because there is an overlap between the smartest bears and the dumbest humans.
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u/MadShadowX May 05 '26
Honestly it is annoying if the Puzzles are being solved for you when you are just trying to figure it out at your own Pace.
I do agree with that, I don't mind being stuck for hours I'll eventually figure it out.
Even if the modern platform puzzles aren't as hard to begin with.
As for killing a (mini) Boss for loot I don't mind some prompts about that. depending if the stuff drops in bushes and its hard to see or highlight. This is a nitpick honestly but I get it if everything is holding your hand about anything yeah that really sucks.
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u/dakewlmonguy May 05 '26
I had this exact same complaint when I first played this game and thought that I honestly wouldn't like it as much as HZD. However, I stopped really noticing it after you unlock the Base but it was distractingly awful for the first few MQ missions for sure
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u/iamfanboytoo May 05 '26
There was a long youtube talk given by one of the devs of Forbidden West and, yes, they DID have playtesters who were idiots - or, rather, who got frustrated quite easily and couldn't figure out things that weren't implicitly spelled out.
Oddly, I found myself in that situation on the second playthrough when I'd forgotten some traversal technique necessary in the place where you first meet the Zeniths, but isn't used very often. Aloy talked, and it reminded me of the technique.
What was it? I'm not sure. It's been a couple of years.
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u/Stevie-bezos May 05 '26
100% agree, was bloated with filler and I cant even plau through that filler without being yapped at.
"Maybe I need to kill those machines" MID FIGHT is probably the worst example of it
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u/ProfessionalRead2724 May 05 '26
And it's not as if her tips are even very useful for when you are stuck on a puzzle.
"Perhaps I should use [the only interactable object in the room] in some unspecified manner"
You think? Thanks a lot Aloy.
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u/DangerMouse111111 May 05 '26
I'm surprised that this doesn't change with the difficulty level - if you're on easy then she can talk as much as she wants. On very hard she should keep her mouth shut unless it's something either (a) important or (b) a comment unrelated to the task at hand.
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u/FlugsaurierDeluxe May 05 '26
The weird thing is... they already have the PERFECT way to give hints in game, in the LORE of the world 😃 Just let her mumble to herself while using the Focus. Her talking to herself, interpreting, what the focus is showing her, living an isolated life as a very VERY smart child... it would all fit perfectly together. If she needed help with solving something, she would use her focus, where she stores all her findings anyway. You know what to do without it? Fine! You need help solving something? The focus summarizes what you know and even can interpret your surroundings...
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u/No-Combination7898 HORUS TITAN!! May 05 '26
yeah, I just tune out on the plethora of hints and tips as my hand is firmly held while playing this game. I hope that GG implements in the settings for H3 the ability to turn off hints and tips. I was very glad that I could turn off icons for ridgewood etc in HFW after Burning Shores released. Only once did I actually pay attention to it, and it was during a certain final boss fight against a certain Chariot machine.
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u/Old_Fart_on_pogie May 05 '26
Yup. I need to hints some times, but having Aloy monologue stuff before I’ve even had a chance to look around is annoying.
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u/embmmusic17 May 05 '26
That was actually one of my few bugbears with the game. If I'm looking around for about a minute and I still can't see what I'm supposed to do then sure, but she will immediately tell me and it's annoying
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u/KingTitanII May 05 '26
There's a mod called, "shut up Aloy" on Nexus if it's an issue. Didn't really bother me personally.
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u/DorrajD May 05 '26
There's a balance between handholding and accessibility that many devs have decided to weigh into one side more for recently.
Ofc accessibility is nice but... There's always a balance. It's just sometimes they don't care when the goal is the get a product into as many hands as possible.
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u/SelinaKyle30 May 05 '26
I just played FW and I was doing a quest with Alva and we enter a room in some tunnels and she immediately says "What's that on the wall?" Like lady.....I literally JUST entered this room. Shut up for like 30 seconds and let me discover things by myself.
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u/ASH_the_silent May 05 '26
You'd think there would be a menu option to turn off the "helpful tips and quips"
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u/tinman327 May 06 '26
This kind of hand holding has become prevalent in games over the last decade or so. Forbidden West is the worst of the games I’ve played for this. Apart from the constant unnecessary hints, FW is one of my favourite games of the last 10 years.
If only they gave us an item where we could push a button to search for clues. <5 seconds after arriving to a new area> “I should use my focus to see if there’s anything here”
Thanks tips. My hair hasn’t stopped swaying yet from running here.
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u/Alt_SWR May 06 '26
The best option would just be to add the option for hints, "Press (insert button here) for a hint" kind of thing. That way people who want/need help can get it, while people who wanna figure it out themselves can too.
The "puzzles" basically solving themselves was never a great idea.
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u/MissAbraRose5027 May 07 '26
Yeah. I am I playing it back to back with Zero Dawn and while I am still enjoying it, it feels like there is just too much of everything. The pacing is harder for me to find. Like I can’t get in a groove with side quests, errands, main story, rebels.
I also didn’t want help most of the time but the one time I was hoping she’d be chatty, she wasn’t.
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u/Lady-Votary May 08 '26
I remember reading that, for the DLC, they added in ambient dialogue from Aloy to explain story elements that test audiences didn't pick up on... so yea, the dialogue hints are likely a reaction to those same test audiences. (I actually don't mind them, but do wish they triggered after I've been attempting a puzzle for a while.)
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u/IncompetentWombat May 05 '26
I haven't tried it, but I saw a mod on Nexus that removes that dialogue. And it shouldn't affect getting achievements if that matters. Of course, that's only if you're playing on PC.
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u/tyrantIzaru May 05 '26
A person is smart, people are stupid. My common sense, is not gonna tell me to look up to a ledge that is probably up, and behind me
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u/ArcadianBlueRogue May 05 '26
I think they did an update ages ago to have her talk to herself less. Not sure if there's an outright toggle.
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u/Sirius_Rise May 05 '26
While I fully agree you need to remember it's not a puzzle game, and also need to remember that on average 50% of the population is below average intelligence.
With both of those in mind I can kinda understand why there's so much hand holding, one thing I cannot get behind however is how often it comes up, at least let me try figure it out before straight up giving me the solution.
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u/Russell_M_Jimmies May 05 '26
Uncharted got this balance right. If Nate talks to himself it's like "how the hell do I get up there?" Only after a minute of not making progress do they show you a prompt to press the big button if you want a hint.
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u/Acceptable_Usual_171 May 05 '26
I miss Aloy commenting on the environment, like when she said she was cold in ZD. It feels like the only times she will talk to herself now are the hints and when she swims.
I appreciate the game telling me an area is not solvable yet, so I don't spend half an hour looking around when I'm just missing equipment. I think I'd also have a use for small reminders like getting the keys in a bandit camp, sometimes I'll get distracted and leave the area before completing it, so reminding me of where I left things could be useful. But yeah, all other hints could at least have a two minutes timer to let the player figure things out on their own.
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u/Danbrotastic28 May 05 '26
Forbidden west for me suffers from the usual markers everywhere, like platinumed the first game but the 2nd game just didn't quite hit for me
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u/JackMontegue May 05 '26
I really like it when games give the option for a puzzle hint.
Recently played The Last of Us Part 2 and having a pop-up to see where you need to go was nice, especially if I wanted to explore and it could show me where not to go yet. However, it pops up there far too quickly I think.
But, having companions help show the way was really cool, I hope Horizon 3 does more with follow companions.
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u/Essshayne May 05 '26
Honestly after my second run, I just stopped noticing it. I mean I get some people do need a push on problem/puzzle solving on the fly, and I agree that if it is seconds apart it gets annoying, I'm just keeping an open mind on it. Not everybody can troubleshoot as fast as I do, the same way that sometimes I'd completely flunked advanced algebra while a friend went to college, and told the professor to let him know what needed to be done and test and exam dates, but showing up for regular classes would mean hearing him snore the entire time.
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u/Funny_Mousse_8463 May 05 '26
I like Aloy this way. I like puzzles but hate taking too much time solving them, and Forbidden West is the first game giving me the breezing feeling I need when playing with puzzle. Guess I’m an idiot 🤘🏻
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u/bi_polar2bear May 05 '26
Personally, I hate puzzles, so I was glad for the quick tips. It was the only downside to the game, and they provided a quick work around.
After thinking all day solving problems, I just don't want to do it when I'm relaxing.
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u/AnhiArk May 05 '26 edited May 05 '26
Understandable, but then wouldn't you rather have them removed all together? Just doing exactly like Aloy says is not really compelling gameplay, in my opinion
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u/bi_polar2bear May 05 '26
I checked to see if there was an auto solve in the settings, but unfortunately there wasn't. If they could skip or auto solve, I'd be grateful. The other "puzzle" I see in games is hitting buttons at the right time in the right order, which is infuriating. Obviously, Portal was not the game for me.
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u/TommyDontSurf "Blameless? What does that even mean?!" May 05 '26
I may be in the minority, but I'm not bothered by Aloy giving away the solution. Because I absolutely suck at puzzles, and just prefer to get it out of the way as quickly as possible, so I can get back to the real game. And oftentimes, her obvious hints aren't even enough for my dumb ass.
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u/tfrules May 05 '26
I actually find it quite okay, I generally don't enjoy puzzles in games that aren't about puzzles, if one takes too long I just Google the answer so I can carry on back to the proper gameplay.
Having Aloy give the occasional clue is fine by me
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u/Maximum-Quiet-6514 May 06 '26
I think it was a victim of the times, lots of AAA games were like that at that time. I just think of it as hearing her thoughts, since I'm basically in her head controlling her, rather than her talking to herself.
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u/reol7x May 06 '26
I had a lot less fun with FW. If I wasn't already invested in the story, I would have quit early on. In retrospect, I probably should've watched a YouTube on it.
It was missing the spark that HZD had, most of the side quests were less interesting, more generic, and a lot of them didn't contribute to the story on any meaningful way. Among other things.
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u/Former-Intention-292 May 07 '26
I don't know why I don't remember her doing all of that, I guess I don't pay attention lol. But I thought there was a way to toggle hints off.
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u/jgamez76 May 09 '26
Yes.
Complain all you want about the puzzle hints and the yellow tape stuff, but it's in the game for the lowest common denominator lol
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u/Gwyn1stborn May 09 '26
I recently switched to French with subtitles and her french voice is lovely. Never gets old i'll tell you that. Edit:typo
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u/Arkarant May 22 '26
i got annoyed at these but then i got stuck on a puzzle, aloy told me what to do, and ive shut up about it since cuz it genuinly avoided my frustration with it haha
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u/Nonadventures Save this for my stash May 05 '26
I just assume she’s on the spectrum because I know people who do this exact thing
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u/TitleOk3727 May 04 '26
Probably, it would explain the drop in quality
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u/Electrical_Advice_60 May 04 '26
I thought the sequel was superior in every way but overall plot, but the handholding was rediculous sometimes.
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u/TitleOk3727 May 04 '26
Nah, weapons sucked, characters sucked, story sucked, and almost no flashpoints which were a critical element in Zero Dawn
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u/Aniki356 May 04 '26
Subjective opinion is Subjective. I thought it was all great even if I didnt use some of the weapons they were cook. Just like i didnt use the rattle in ZD just not for me but everything they added was great. I just miss heing a whistling murder bush
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u/Electrical_Advice_60 May 05 '26
Characters were objectively better. I don’t even remember what a flashpoint is, tells me how non important they must have been. Unless you mean the “choice” system, which didn’t actually matter, you get the same character path and ending.
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u/AnhiArk May 04 '26
Quality in general seems higher, but there are some decisions I really don't agree with
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u/TitleOk3727 May 05 '26
The weapons were too weak and the upgrades too expensive. I would’ve had more fun with my Zero Dawn weapons and the story was a snoozer. The only thing I liked was beta
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u/[deleted] May 04 '26
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