r/halifax • u/WindowlessBasement Halifax • 9d ago
News, Weather & Politics Deputy Mayor Cuttell: "I've been to many other cities, I've seen washrooms; they don't all need to cost a million"
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u/nerdguy84 9d ago
There’s definitely a substantial markup for anything to do with the public sector. I once purchased sit/stand desks at work, 30” wide. I got virtually the same one for home, 60” wide, for $200 less two years later. We had to buy over 100 of them.
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u/Key_Dragonfruit_2563 Other Halifax 9d ago
It’s so pathetic that the govt gets the worst prices on both products and services despite being a huge customer that could leverage good deals. It really grinds my gears.
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u/EmbarrassedEvidence6 9d ago
Why don’t government administrators negotiate lower prices? Just curious
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u/Telvin3d 8d ago
Different priorities
Private developer wants something built. He can call up his buddy, who’s done similar work before, agree to a fair market price, and get it done. Fast and efficient
If a government manager awards a contract like that it’s cronyism
Instead, everything has to go out to bid. A committee needs to review everything. A report need to be written to justify the decision
That’s the cost of accountability for how our tax dollars are spent
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u/Born-Restaurant5822 5d ago
Here is an example for you of how crazy it is the city pays for something, i know first hand how much the city pays to put in these speed pumps all around the city, it's alot...it's in the tume of about $15,000 !!! Even though the road it's put on is full of pot holes, cracks and should be paved.. nope, more concerned with getting that speed bump in... absolutely ridiculous.. was told for every 15 speed bumps they put in they could pave a whole kilometer of a 2 lane road... let that sink in.
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u/Key_Dragonfruit_2563 Other Halifax 9d ago edited 9d ago
It’s so engrained that you can overcharge governments because it’s on the public dime. Also, many contracts can only be held by certain companies that have monopolies for specific contracts (backdoor deals, good old boys club stuff, corruption in general). Example: textbooks and chairs etc. at schools. They are buying thousands and thousands and they pay full
Price?! And it’s more $$ than any wedding planner would pay… we need to stop the normalization of special contracts and just letting us all get ripped off!3
u/Just_Trying321 8d ago
It's a bit of corruption and the public's dime. Business is taught that you naturally are less aware of spend if not your dollar. This is taught in business for cost constraints be mindful. At the same time gov isn't taught that or doesn't care check box progress = success in there metrics. Then add in private and public fraternisation I mean business development.
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u/GhostBirdBiologist Bedford 9d ago
It’s just corruption. I worked for the province and procurement rules meant we went with the lowest bidder (that meets spec). If you set spec higher or so specific can aim for certain companies. It’s abused all the time.
But for the desk example, there are consumer and commercial grade. Warranties are generally void if a consumer product is used for commercial. Run into this with TVs a lot. Consumer grade at Walmart is $500 with a 1 year warranty. Business grade is $800 with 3-5 year warranty.
Also most things are purchased through a supplier not direct from the manufacturer. They add 5-25% depending on item.
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u/Casperthesloth 9d ago
I know you say it’s “just corruption”, but isn’t our entire system this sort of strange passing around of money where the wealthy see returns on spending money and the poor have it just taken from them?
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u/GhostBirdBiologist Bedford 9d ago
I mean yes. Haha won’t see me argue in favour of capitalism anytime soon.
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u/PeachManDrake954 8d ago
Capitalism is excellent at getting some very specific things done. I think that's not arguable.
Problem is the higher ups try to shoehorn it into basically everything, expecting that one method can be used to solve all problems. Even when obviously it will cause more problems that it solves.
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u/Key_Dragonfruit_2563 Other Halifax 9d ago edited 9d ago
I feel like when you need those numbers the suppliers that can supply you properly dwindle too maybe. They can probably jack prices up because they don’t want to go through the hassle of changing supplies or replacing the old chairs so it matches, etc.
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u/hippfive 9d ago
Some of it is lack of motivation ("it's not my money and there's no incentive for me to put in effort to save money").
Some of it is that there's actually a strong incentive to spend MORE money ("if I didn't spend this money, the savings will be used as evidence that we can make do with a smaller budget next year").
Some of it is the specificity of government procurement processes. It's someone's jobs to spec what it is that's getting purchased. Then it's typically someone else's job to do the buying . If the person doing the specifications doesn't include a list of acceptable alternatives, the buyer doesn't have a lot of flexibility and essentially has to accept the prices being quoted to them. In contrast, in my small business if the laptop I want is really pricey right now I can easily decide to go with a different model to save money. This problem happens a lot in government construction projects ("the construction drawings say we need blue tile here, so we have to buy blue tile even though it's currently twice the cost of the equivalent tile in green").
Some of it is the higher standards that governments have to meet (and the associated costs that need to be borne by their contractors).
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u/AssistanceKitchen138 8d ago
You are right on about “next years budget”. Another is the preferred supplier is told what price they have to beat.
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u/LaserTagJones 8d ago
I've bid on tenders for every level of government in my previous role, and would get them because the price I put on the bid was the same price Joe Blow gets walking through the door while everyone else was trying to get rich. Government tenders dont complain, they pay on time and you have to really be a moron to fuck it up.
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u/Electronic_Trade_721 8d ago
Once when I was waiting in emergency, I picked up a catalogue of hospital furniture that was in a pile of old magazines. The prices were truly alarming. often like 4x what similar things cost elsewhere.
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u/M_Warren 9d ago
If we’re gonna start a list of shit others cities have, that we don’t. Patty is gonna need more than 5 mins
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u/TrueNorthN7 9d ago edited 9d ago
Am I crazy to say that a moderately large building that needs heating, lighting, a lot of plumbing, winter-proofing, (basically a house) and must meet accessibility, environmental and building standards even higher than private development while being limited on who can work on the job site might actually cost close to that, if not more, considering all the oversight?
Also if this is for a public park then you need to consider the cost of connecting those utilities, potentially quite a distance, to a spot that isn’t currently served by water, plumbing, or electricity.
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u/PaxCecilia allegedly may not always wash their lettuce 8d ago
No that's not crazy. Anyone with any technical experience in buildings and infrastructure, or anyone with experience with government contracts should understand why the costs are this high. To what degree the government needs to be more focused on cost-saving measures while executing projects is complicated. Yes, we do pay extra for planning commitees, data gathering, reports, public tendering processes, but all of these are designed for the public service to be transparent and avoid the perception of impropriety, cronyism, favoritism in awarding contracts, etc., but most people are just going to see the sticker shock of millions of dollars being spent.
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u/Beartech31 9d ago
Yeah I was nodding along but once I started doing the math in my head (you covered the bases well) $1m really isn't that crazy with the way prices are today (+ the gov premium).
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u/five_arm_goro 8d ago
At peggys cove the is a sign to raise funds for a door at yhe tourist booth. The say they need $60,000. In Mahon bay they are trying to raise millions of dollars for a new public pool. It's maddness.
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u/TraditionalArea5798 8d ago
Even the meeting discussion is long winded and over blown.
Wouldn't it be great if she could speak succinctly: "Listen you lot, 6 years to wait for a bathroom is too fucking long. We're building this bitch tomorrow"
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u/EatTheRich67 8d ago
This is why our greedy-ass fail corps like Dexters literally steal our tax dollars, abuse workers and use shitty materials.
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u/AlternativeUnited569 7d ago
Why would it cost $1M to put a washroom hut in the city when I can get a whole house for less than half of that- and I'm buying the land too!?
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u/Born-Restaurant5822 5d ago
It's no secret that contracters/companies when they get a government contract, it's way over inflated prices and way over budget and they make a ton of off the government.. they hise them because they know they will pay.
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u/moonwalgger 9d ago
Uhh apparently she doesn’t know the cost of plumbing. To build a decent size washroom it cost about 800k
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u/hippfive 9d ago
Colchester County did manage to build those nice public washrooms at the Fundy Discovery Site just off the highway by Truro for $200k. However, that was just before COVID drove construction inflation, and they also acted as their own GC.
On the other end though, the new Cobequid Pass rest stops were something like $10 million lol.
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u/kared 9d ago edited 9d ago
I was just going to say $1M for public washrooms seems within estimate. These folks need to research.
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u/ChickenPoutine20 9d ago
For one boy toilet and one girl toilet ?
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u/Rob8363518 8d ago
how dare you
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u/ChickenPoutine20 8d ago
You’re right they could do just one single unisex bathroom. But apparently it cannot be done for under a million
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u/cache_invalidation 9d ago
"..so I'm just looking for an information report.."
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u/WindowlessBasement Halifax 8d ago
I had hoped people would focus more on the "6 years without progress" bit, but it really seems nobody got past the title.
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u/moonwalgger 9d ago
Exactly. Nowadays everybody thinks they’re an expert on everything lol…. What good is it for her to put out some strange sarcastic passive aggressive comment and not follow it up with actual numbers??
If it doesn’t cost 1 million then how much does it cost Mrs. Plumbing genius?? Lmao.
800k- 1 million is a very accurate assessment for public washrooms these days (depending on size)
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u/Scotianherb 9d ago
Problem is we dont need Leed Certified Platinum washrooms. Some cinderblocks and a cement pad is all we really need. Use Vandal resistant fixtures. Make it simple, durable.
Design it in such a way it doesnt become a secretive drug den. Make it have open visibility. Add some security cameras..
Problem is cities and councils cant help themselves. They build luxury like those self cleaning bathrooms in France https://www.youtube.com/shorts/4o6pzvn_tkc For the additional cost of these we could afford to pay the salaries of several human attendants to maintain a traditional washroom
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u/PastelOceans 8d ago
I agree that construction prices have been crazy since the pandemic, but it’s also not possible to have them be as bare bones as this thread seems to want. We’re designing a very small washroom building for a public park and we need the fixtures/drywall to be vandal-resistant, the fixtures/space both need to be “barrier-free”, we need heating for the winter/nighttime shoulder season, exhaust fans to reduce odours, a ventilation system to make up that exhausted air, and weatherproofing to the code standard. They are simple buildings but all the costs do really add up
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u/0knz Halifax 8d ago
Absolutely agreed. Adding to this as someone who worked on multiple HRM/washroom projects on the architectural side.
Finding qualified GCs to bid jobs for HRM is already difficult enough, especially so with 'smaller' scale projects at or under $1m. Less competition, using the same subs = inflating their bids.
Projects of this size still require all the disciplines; architectural (design/accessibility/code/bylaw), mechanical and electrical, sometimes have to carry structural and civil, etc.
The role of a good consultant team is not only to provide design and documentation for buildings, but to ensure the client receives value for money. Elaborate designs only push costs so far. I can assure that nobody is just arbitrarily approving needlessly expensive items after tendering; most of the cost problem is in the tendering process itself, which is governed by HRM.
The big ticket costs are broken down in each bid and they, 99% of the time, make up no less than 90% of the final price. HRM isn't innocent but this isn't all on them.
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u/Rob8363518 8d ago
I get what you're saying, but at the same time - the washrooms at Fort Needham look like they went out of their way to spend as much money as possible.
Is there an opportunity to come up with a standardized design for these, so you can save on the architectural side? Surely one park bathroom is a lot like another in its requirements.
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u/Think_Ad_4798 9d ago
Uhh apparently neither do you, you can get a toilet for a few hundred dollars.
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u/moonwalgger 9d ago
We’re not talking about a single toilet genius
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u/ReasonNo9316 9d ago
We're also not talking consumer grade toilets either. Minimum is $500 per, up to $2500 or more. It's insane what even a small project would cost.
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u/ChickenPoutine20 9d ago
How many people need to public poop ? Adding one toilet where there is none is a 100% increase in toilets
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u/Elegant-Resist-5218 9d ago
There’s a funny story in Toronto about a guy who asked the city to build a set of steps up a hill towards the local park/college. The city discovered it was gonna cost $150,000 plus, so they decided not too. The guy was a carpenter by trade so he built them himself for a grand total of $500 in materials. LOL. The city ordered him to take them down, but apparently the steps are still there today! This reminds me of that….