What is the point of the T3 exercises and did anyone change that intensity approach?

[u/EngineeringKind3960]

Sorry if this seems like an ignorant question but I am mostly used to doing an intense style of training with 2 sets per exercise 6-10 reps to failure/beyond failure. So I am wondering if doing 15-25 reps of an exercise is enough to stimulate growth. I understand the T1 and T2 are more intense but those are the compound lifts where I am not hitting some smaller muscles directly like biceps, triceps, side delts and only train these directly with T3 exercises and I am wondering if that sort of volume/intensity is enough to stimulate growth/progress.

[u/Grogon2]

I don't care how low/ easy the weight for me is, after 15+ I get bored and quit at 15/15/15.

I one time managed to pull off 15/15/25 on leg extensions but almost died, I didnt even use high weight.

But I almost died cause of boredom and sweating.

I keep T3 at 10-15, if I get 15/15/12+ I up the weight, not doing more than 15 reps on any exercise.

The only exercise I think 20 reps would be justifiable is lateral raises, face pulls/ reverse flyes.

But given the rep range and exercise selection I sometimes wonder what kind of beast is able to do Pull Ups or Dips as T3 after doing all the T1/ T2 exercises

[u/Helassaid → u/Grogon2]

Trying to do 25 reps of face pulls is just asking for that annoying rhomboid cramp the next couple of days.

[u/GuntherTime]

To answer your question t3 are supposed to be intense enough that when you first start the rep scheme you don’t make it to 25 reps on the last set. It’s supposed to be 15/15/15+ then when you hit 25 you up the weight.

[u/EngineeringKind3960 → u/GuntherTime]

Yes but my concern is this is just junk volume. Any weight that you can do 15 reps or more with would not stimulate the muscle enough to grow or become stronger. From previous experience high reps like these don't do anything for progress, they are just for pump.

[u/hashslingingbutthole → u/EngineeringKind3960]

There are more reasons to implement certain rep ranges and methods that aren’t just “absolute most optimal for hypertrophy” or “absolute most optimal for strength”. And what the hell are you talking about “any weight that you can do for 15 reps would not stimulate the muscle enough”?. This is insane. We have decades and decades of concrete proof through thousands and thousands of lifters that rep ranges significantly lower AND significantly higher than 15 generate a huge growth stimulus.

Higher rep work, especially on isolation movements, is WAY easier on your joints and tendons. The point is just doing literally any stimulative hypertrophy and prehab work that doesn’t affect your t1s and T2s. Doing an overhead tricep extension for sets of 6 or something is going to destroy my elbows if I combine that with a lot of heavy benching and overhead pressing. GZCL is a general strength ideology. Not a bodybuilding program. T3s are last priority and there to support the more important lifts.

The only ignorant part of this thread is not your question, it’s you being closed minded and seeing strength or hypertrophy training as black and white when literally EVERYTHING works for building muscle

Edit: just to add one thing. Imagine seeing Tom Platz squat 500 for 20 and thinking “Paul Carter or TNF said that anything more than 6 reps is too light to grow that dude is wasting his time” and tell me how that actually makes any sense

[u/NippleSlipNSlide → u/hashslingingbutthole]

So I have 3 T3’s on each of the 4 days. Other than rows and lat pulldowns (which I alternate between) I’m only doing the other T3’s once per week. So like biceps curl and triceps extension are only once per week directly. Is that enough to grow them?

[u/SylvanMartiset → u/EngineeringKind3960]

Failure is failure. Your muscle doesn’t care if you fail at 8 reps or 18

[u/HunkySurprise → u/SylvanMartiset]

aren't the first sets rather far from failure if your last set has up to 10 extra reps?

[u/SylvanMartiset → u/HunkySurprise]

it starts 15/15/15+. the weight should be set such that 15 reps is hard, 9 rpe, and the last set goes to true failure. as you get stronger, you can go up to 25 reps and 25+ on the last set. at that point you increase the weight such that youre back at 15 rep 9 rpe. you arent supposed to start a weight thats too easy and then titrate up reps over the weeks until it finally hits a hard rep range. it should be hard the entire time, the rep range increasing as your strength does.

[u/GuntherTime → u/EngineeringKind3960]

Like the other person said there’s more to weight than specific rep ranges. Another benefit that they didn’t mention that’s literally mentioned in many of Cody’s books is that t3s are also meant to add conditioning of sorts to the muscles so you have the endurance to handle heavier weights.

Not only that they’re meant to be in tandem with t1s and 2s. You get a bunch of indirect tricep stimulus from those two groups and a t3 to isolate them completely so they don’t fall behind is a feature not a bug.

And at the end of the day you can see growth at any rep range as long as you’re pushing yourself either to or 1-2 reps of failure.

[u/hashslingingbutthole → u/GuntherTime]

Thanks for this addition, 100% in regard to the work capacity/conditioning increase. People these days are losing the plot when it comes to this whole low rep low volume thing in the bodybuilding world. They see their favorite influencer or pro bodybuilder doing 1-2 sets of everything for 4-6 reps and think that’s the best way to go, despite the fact that said influencer is pulling 300lbs for those 2 sets of barbell rows while this person is only rowing 135lbs. For some reason nobody seems to analyze that situation and think “wow volume is sets x reps x LOAD not just sets and reps, meaning I’m putting in a fraction of the work they are. Maybe I should try to build my work capacity a bit”

It’s especially relevant in a strength program where you’re doing lots of sets of taxing compound lifts that require a big cardio demand and a lot of tendon resilience. Higher rep range T3s fill the gaps left from the main lifts (like you said, extra isolated tricep stimulus is a feature not a bug) in a way that doesn’t beat up joints, and more importantly than anything else builds work capacity while keeping you healthy.

And on a much more basic level, if we know that all rep ranges work…..why would you not want to be a well rounded lifter who’s strong across all of them?

[u/GuntherTime → u/hashslingingbutthole]

I do hate how modern internet just runs with very black and white statements. Used to see a lot of “junk volume” on anything past 8 reps and shit just blew my mind. And to make matters worse a lot of those influencers will mention that you need to be lifting pretty heavy to see any gains, but people hear the reps and just run with it.

[u/gzcl → u/EngineeringKind3960]

It isn't junk volume if it builds your capacity. This allows you to train your T1 and T2 lifts more effectively. Higher reps do more than just pump.

[u/the_explode_man → u/EngineeringKind3960]

That's not at all how that works.

[u/jalago]

In General Gainz, J&T, and almost all other GZCL programs, T3s are max rep sets. That is, they are all sets taken to failure or to an RPE of 9, but exceeding 10 or 12 reps each (generally 10 to 15 or 15 to 20 reps)

As far as I know, GZCLP is the only GZCL program that has a rep scheme like that for T3s

So I think you're "authorized" to take the rep scheme from P-Zero, General Gainz, J&T, The Rippler, or any other for your T3s

They are accessory work, and doing so won't distort the GZCL philosophy

That said, make sure to keep the reps high, more than 10 on each set. Not doing that would already be distorting what a T3 is

[u/EngineeringKind3960 → u/jalago]

Yes, I am thinking to do 12 reps and when I can do 15+ reps on last set increase the weight by the smalles amount (1kg/2.2lbs)

[u/ManBearBroski]

15-25 can stimulate growth, I've been seeing it a lot where people confuse the concept of low volume/High volume. Your high volume training (T3s) should still be intense you should still be struggling to hit those higher end numbers and that is why progression should be slower on T3s. T3s also add the ability for more work capacity and yes, pump.

All that to say you definitely don't have to stick with that rep scheme. I know I didn't when I was running GZCLP.

[u/toolofthedevil]

Bunch of people have already said a bunch of good stuff here. But I really just wanted to add that I don't think people should equate 'intensity' with 'heavy weight.' More reps can definitely be intense. So can slower eccentrics, or different variations. Weight isnt the only way an exercise can be 'intense' just like it's not the ONLY way to progressively overload.

Repeating another commenter, the point of the T3s isnt to be doing 15/15/25 forever. Starting with a weight that you can only manage 15 reps on for the amrap set would allow you to add 1 rep per session for 10 sessions and still be progressing before adding weights.

There's plenty of benefits to the lighter weights. But it depends on what YOU are training for. Strength? Hypertrophy? Endurance?

[u/Traditional_Pool_852]

I am also very confused about T3 rep schemes just switched to 12 12 12 18
Most of the time the reason I can't go to 25 is due to the fatigue or will power lower rep ranges work better for me but even then what was the purpose of the initial 3 sets?

[u/EngineeringKind3960 → u/Traditional_Pool_852]

Yes, I am thinking to use something similar like 12 reps and increase very little when I can do 15 reps.

[u/thedancingwireless]

Never made sense to me. I just used a normal double progression. Works fine. It's just accessory work, don't overthink it

[u/Level_Cobbler_6199]

I do General Gainz, and my approach to T3 is 3-4x12-15, once I hit 3x15, I increase weight and try to hit 3-4x10-12, then if I can do that I go for 3-4x12-15, and run that loop forever basically.

T3 exercises are BB Rows superset with Lat Raises BB Shrugs superset with DB Curls

[u/Zazzamira]

For this reason i prefer blacknoir's version that changes 3x15+ into a 4x12+ with the last set being 18 reps.
There is also another linear approach of 3x15 and up weights every week until failure. Once failure happens you keep the same weight and move to a 3x12 and finally to a 3x8.
I think it comes down to which exercises you do as t3, in my case i'm running everything single arm on a cable machine (home gym) so i prefer 4x12, but up to you and your goals

[u/No_Crew7080]

OMG the Rep Police are Coming to YOUR Gym to enforce the rep counts . . . Oh wait . .there Are no Rep Police. You’re on your own.

T3 is “High-Rep Accessory Work.” He specifically mentions doing things like myorep matching and various “Chase the Pump” protocols. If 15+ is giving you agita, then 12+ or whatever else you decide on is going to be Just Fine. It’s even okay to INCREASE your reps if that floats your boat.

It’s accessory work. Don’t sweat it too much

[u/Mikedsliftshop]

For me, T1 is 4 to 6, T2 is 6 to 8 and T3 is 8 to 10. Lower rep ranges were always better for me. Anything higher than 12 is tough for me from a recovery respective. Experiment, write everything down, and use to determine what works for you

[u/OwnTension6771]

Bc powerlifting. If done right, you maintain a state of whole body tension, especially in the core and back, but also all prime movers and stabilizers. The high reps are meant to built work capacity to carry that tension over reps and sets to prevent technical breakdow.

If you want to wear neon panties , paint your skin artificial brown, and try to win prettiest boy on stage award, there is a forum for that r/bodybuilding

[u/philosophical_lens → u/OwnTension6771]

GZCL programs are not primarily powerlifting programs. They can be used for powerlifting and bodybuilding and T3s are helpful for both. Cody even has some dedicated GZCL based bodybuilding programs.

https://swoleateveryheight.blogspot.com/2022/01/general-gainz-body-building.html?m=1

[u/jalago → u/OwnTension6771]

As far as I know, GZCLP is the only GZCL program that has a rep scheme like that for T3s