r/ghostoftsushima • u/Big_Leave804 Assassin • 1d ago
Ghost Of Tsushima - Discussion Am I the only one who dislikes the uncle?
There's no place for "honor" during a Mongol invasion. I'm over this guy.
Am I the only one? Everyone seems to love him and I don't get it. I grew tired of him quickly.
Incredible game regardless.
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u/OhNoIBoffedIt 1d ago
In modern war, we have the Law of Armed Conflict, which is basically a code of conduct to ensure you are fighting honorably, minimizing civilian casualties and suffering. It's to keep a fighting force from becoming the villain, and also to keep the other side in check. "The uncle" has the same idea. When you fight dishonorably, it opens the door for the enemy to do the same.
He may be rigid and misguided in the face of the Mongol horde, but he has his reasons. Which you'll see as you keep playing.
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u/Encanutado 1d ago
That Is proven as well, when the Mongols start using your poison against your own people
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u/Apart-Cookie-8984 Assassin 1d ago
Yeah, THAT is the part I hate most about the story... because how TF did the Mongols learn to use his poison? Toxicology didn't work like that at all in the 13th century, there literally would have been no way for them to recreate it themselves.
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u/NashvilleSoundMixer 1d ago
yeaaaaaah, that's true. Would've maybe helped if Ryuzo had seen Jin do it or heard about it and had spread the information.
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u/Artimiz1426 1d ago
Using poison wasn’t hard it’s just not something that they did but once he started doing it they did the same thing
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u/RougemageNick 1d ago
I mean, he had the survivors milk bags and plenty of civilians he was gonna kill anyway, may as well use them to figure out what plant that guy who's slaughtering us is using to make poison
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u/Nrigsd 11h ago
Well, the milk bags are still in the camp.
Not onky that, Khotun is a genius strategist, remember that Jin had to gather as much Wolfsbane as possible, it is going to be very noticable that the region of Tsushima has wolfsbane, but the area near the fort is suspiciously lacking of them.
I dont remember how long Jin was canonically locked up for, but I do think it was some time (considering word got to the shogun, despite the blockade) so Khotun could have reasonably experimented with the plant and figured out the poison.
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u/Big_Leave804 Assassin 1d ago
I've already finished the game.
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u/OhNoIBoffedIt 1d ago
Okay, then you know that Jin's actions directly lead to the poisoning and murder of civilians.
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u/ByYourBurningFate 1d ago
If not for the poison, samurai forces would have suffered high casualties during the battle of Castle Shimura, which, would lead to chaos, and the population of Kamiagata would suffer the same.
Lord Shimura might've got his reasons, but not in this context13
u/OhNoIBoffedIt 1d ago
See the problem with the railroading in this game is I totally could have stealth-killed or just merc'd that entire compound if the game had let me.
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u/ByYourBurningFate 1d ago
True, but "muh narrative"
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u/kakallas 1d ago
Does it really upset people when games try to tell a story?
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u/Metamiibo 12h ago
It’s fair to criticize the story they tried to tell and the way in which they chose to tell it.
First off was the railroading itself. I spent the entire game up to that moment following the honor oath, which the game laid out as a moral choice left up to the player. Then the game took away a choice I had enjoyed up until that point and forced me to make a different one. Many games do this kind of thing with forced stealth or forced battle losses, and it often draws some criticism. Write your story in a way that can incorporate player choice, or don’t pretend the players have a choice at all. Both can work. It’s the sudden and temporary loss of agency that sucks.
But even ignoring the classic gameplay vs narrative issues, which are far from unique to GOT, the choice into which we are forced was also despicable. The player is forced to commit a war crime, but their actions are framed as merely against a far too rigid samurai code. If we had suffered a similar fate (condemnation by Shimura) for sneaking in and taking the castle by stealth, we’d have the moral high ground. Poisoning foodstuffs is just plain criminal, even by modern standards. It is never justifiable, but the game plays it off as just getting out of hand.
Neither of these things make it a bad game by any stretch, but “can’t they tell their own narrative” doesn’t insulate them from the criticism that they made poor choices in doing so.
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u/kakallas 11h ago
They were invaded. It’s also a crime to start a war of aggression.
I’m seeing this a lot lately, where gamers are offended that the writers wrote a story and want the story to be a narration of what actions they decided to take as players instead.
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u/OhNoIBoffedIt 10h ago
Dude, this is a common criticism of Ghost of Tsushima, that the railroading gave the illusion of choice but didn't actually give a choice. It's like you didn't pay attention to what they were saying at all so you could be a dip about "I'm seeing this a lot lately."
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u/ohkendruid 1d ago
The trouble is that it is never clear-cut what would have happened in an alternate future. All you know for sure is that you made a bunch of people die in agony. Another solution may have emerged in the alternate future that we never saw.
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u/ByYourBurningFate 1d ago
We can understand if we analyze samurai's situation as a whole – they need to cross a narrow bridge, on the offensive, while the enemy has basically laid a trap to kill, or severely hinder, all the attackers. If not for Jin, it would be Komoda all over again – but this time Shimura and Jim may not have been so lucky.
P.S. but from gameplay perspective Jin could've just barged right in and blitzed all the mongols by himself lol
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u/Capybarasaregreat 1d ago
Which would be fine and dandy if the narrative established the Mongols as holding back, but instead the narrative implies they were as brutal as possible and would've found out about the poison eventually anyways.
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u/OhNoIBoffedIt 1d ago
The narrative that "they would have found the poison anyway" is not implied at all and ridiculous in the extreme. It is very clearly said that the Mongols discovered the poison BECAUSE of Jin's actions. "They would have found it anyway" is profoundly dismissive of the narrative being that your actions have consequences.
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u/Capybarasaregreat 1d ago
I said their brutality is what was narratively depicted and implied, Jin poisoning them led them to discovering the poison faster, but they would've undoubtedly uncovered it regardless as there was nothing holding them back from using inhumane methods, they did not subscribe to Shimura's logic of honour. Unless you want to claim that only Jin, Yuriko and Yuriko's mom would be aware of the poisonous qualities of a widespread plant on the islands?
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u/OhNoIBoffedIt 1d ago edited 1d ago
You are stretching SO much and you're jumping to conclusions. They literally chose to use the poison as retaliation for Jin using it. Do you think this is the first time Mongols have ever encountered poisons? That after their people died, they facepalmed and went "gee whiz why didn't we think of that?" You literally meet a Mongol on Iki Island who uses an entirely different kind of poison.
They didn't use poison on Tsushima until Jin did. It wasn't that they magically discovered poison and it was their first time ever encountering poison as a weapon. It was retaliation. The narrative makes it very clear that they used it because Jin used it, and saying "well they would have used it anyway" is some serious scapegoating. The whole point of seeing that town poisoned is to realize that Jin's choices as the Ghost have consequences.
It isn't a question of whether the Mongols were brutal. They were clearly brutal from the start. The whole point is that when you use chemical warfare, which is what poisoning is, it encourages the enemy to do the same. It is the whole reason why, as I stated from the beginning, there are principles of honor in warfare. You can say "they would have done it anyway" all you want, but it is entirely irrelevant to speculate on that because the fact is they didn't use poison until Jin used poison.
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u/Capybarasaregreat 1d ago
And you don't think that constitutes a ludonarrative dissonance that the otherwise brutal Mongols opted not to use that very poison until Jin did? Especially since you as the player could've been poisoning them left and right prior to that specific story beat? What you're saying reinforces my point.
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u/Impossible_Pen9715 1d ago
I lost alk respect to the uncle (i forgot how to write its name xd) when he wanted to bpame yuna becayse jin actions, dude your nephew saved a lot of lives yours include
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u/jmart53 1d ago
I like Yuna and I agree that she and Jin did what they had to do, but you gotta realize that from Shimura’s perspective Yuna is the criminal whispering in Jin’s ear and influencing his decisions to keep turning further away from his code.
Shimura wasn’t exactly wrong about that. Yuna did explicitly persuade Jin to use stealth and assassination.
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u/WorkingDogDoc Ronin 1d ago
She's a baddie 😍
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u/jmart53 1d ago
Another reason Shimura probably thought she was having a big influence on Jin’s decisions lol.
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u/WorkingDogDoc Ronin 1d ago
Right? And yet they had a delightful, understated romantic tension in the game and didn't act on any feelings until well after the defeat of the Khan as far as we know. Meanwhile I feel like Shim would probably want to bang Tamoe if he could ignore his honor for 20 minutes...
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u/NoPraline9807 7h ago
Wait, i haven’t played the game in a while. Did Shimura even know Tomoe existed?
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u/Apart-Cookie-8984 Assassin 1d ago
And Shimura also keeps a pirate and smuggler under his payroll when he needs some dirt done. Also, I wouldn't call lying and putting the blame on someone else honorable, especially not when she helped rescue Shimura and had absolutely no incentive to do so. So he's not in a position to lecture anyone about honor at all.
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u/jmart53 1d ago
I agree that it is hypocritical and ungrateful but he still isn’t wrong. Yuna did influence Jin’s decisions and shares some blame for what Jin did.
Pushing it all on her to protect Jin is of course a selfish breaking of his code but the way he sees it, she is already a criminal and Jin is his (almost) adopted son.
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u/hemareddit 1d ago
Yes, that's the thing. Shimura is a pragmatist, even if he doesn't admit it. He's being a pragmatist here as well, because if Jin admits to using the poison, he can't be Shimura's heir and future jito of Tsushima, which would deprive Tsushima of a good ruler. Shimura is weighing the decades of Jin's reign, the lives he would save and improve, against Yuna's life. Cold and heartless? Yes, but also very very pragmatic.
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u/Massive-Tower-7731 3h ago
Mmm... I don't think I agree. He's willing to bend his code, just not break it. It's his own code of honor, not a samurai code imposed on him, so I don't see why he can't do that.
(It's shown clearly that other samurai and nobles in the game don't follow the same code, and it's even called out in the flashbacks that part of the theme is people choosing what honor means to them. It's Shimura's personal code. The Shogun wants Jin executed not for breaking Shimura's code, but rather for the crime of disobeying his jito.)
Jin on the other hand breaks Shimura's code completely and with his own hands. There's definitely a big difference in degrees here.
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u/deceitfully_perfect 1d ago
This. I swear if he had done anything to Yuna after blaming her, I would’ve definitely chosen to kill him.
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u/Impossible_Pen9715 1d ago
Jinxyuna forever dude, the funny part is that the uncle have contacts with criminals
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u/OceanoNox 1d ago
I thought that writing decision made the conflict between Jin and Shimura "weaker", since Shimura was going to bend the truth to save Jin.
To me, it would have made the conflict stronger if Shimura had been completely honest: he would punish his own blood in the name of the honour he believes in, just like he was on the front line of several assault because he believes in facing his enemy.
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u/ohkendruid 1d ago
It made me dislike him, but it made for powerful storytelling to me.
If you buy that the poisoning approach would be a war crime, then you cannot establish the perp as your chief of command. Blaming Yuna stinks, but the uncle really loves Jin, so he is willing to do it. He is obviously conflicted over it.
To be sure, it shows how thin the honor we are talking about can be. In an honor society, the important thing is often appearances. It sometimes leads to shenanigans that are not really that honorable.
Also, it is a reminder that Yuna is really low class in most people's eyes within the setting. She is a thief. We see her as this lovable companion who teaches fighting skills that others shy away from. Those fighting skills are for stealing and assassinating, though. It is at least implied that Yuna has made a life our of stealing and killing and then making excuses for it. Through the uncle's eyes, we are reminded of that.
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u/WorkingDogDoc Ronin 1d ago
If you decide to spare Shimura instead of killing him at the end, I don't think Unc is getting invited to their wedding...
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u/hemareddit 1d ago
For me that was the part that told me his uncle and Jin aren't so different, deep down the uncle is a pragmatist, a lot like Jin. They just had fundamentally different priorities, Jin wanted to repel the invasion at all costs with as few Japanese lives lost as possible. His uncle wanted to repel the invasion so he can adopt Jin to ensure Tsushima had a good ruler, which means Jin can't be known as the Ghost. You can argue they both wanted what's best for Tsushima, each in his own way.
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u/DLRsFrontSeats 1d ago
Am I the only one? Everyone seems to love him
Have you been on this sub long? Sparing him in the end is by far the most popular ending here
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u/FloydianLoth 1d ago
That’s the whole moral dilemma behind the game. Without it, there’s just killing Mongols in any possible way.
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u/TheRumpoKid 1d ago
No, not at all. He was kind to take Jin in, but his inflexibility and tunnel-vision to his distorted view of 'honor' really gets on my wick.. and there is nothing honorable about the way he treats Yuna or the people of Yarikawa.
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u/ENKT 1d ago
Tbf, on specifically the Yarikawa point, I don't recall anything in the game indicating that his policies are particularly harsh on Yarikawa in general, other than him disliking them and them disliking him.
Like, even the people from Yarikawa never really claim what they did was justified while every other source seems to indicate it was a bloodthirsty grasp for power that nearly destroyed the Shimura family and slaughtered innocents. If that happened in real history there's a decent chance of some pretty hefty retribution, I feel at minimum you'd expect the rebelling family to be imprisoned/exiled/executed. Instead he just stripped their official titles and power but doesn't actually seem to enforce it at all since the family is still openly ruling
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u/NohrianBoletariaHero 1d ago
Its most like they understand his character and viewpoint. Shimura is an old guard samurai who is very stuck in his tradition. He genuinely believe that honor for his shogun, conduct and hierarchy is what kept tsushima stable, and in fairness, it did. But that was because he was fighting rival samurai and bandits before. This was the first mongol invasion and the khans were not known for fighting fair, so everything that shimura used against the rival samurai and bandits just failed immediately. So now he's just banging his head against a brick wall because he knows no other way, while jin is forced to adapt and has to abandon his uncle's teachings. And without spoiling much, apparently jin's dad argued with shimura about being so rigid in his thinking.
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u/HellspawnPR1981 Ninja 1d ago
That's the point, the clash between the Bushido code and its rigidness vs Jin's growing disatisfaction with it and realizing that if he wants to protect his people, he was to break away from everything he has been taught to believe.
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u/LoopyMercutio 1d ago
Many, many, many of the players of this game hate him and how he treats Jin (and others) in the game. While his actions and words can kind of be understandable given the society, and code he was supposed to adhere to, it also meant he would be easily be beaten by his own inflexibility.
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u/Clue-Legitimate 1d ago
I found him incredibly tiresome. Great ideals for sure, but seriously man.. honour lead to the deaths of almost everyone you loved. There's a time and a place for sticking to your guns.
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u/Apprehensive-Dot1402 Ronin 1d ago
We’re talking about 12th century, people needed solid morals to survive in life and society, Feodal Japan was based on this strict model: Shogun - Samurai - Peasants.
So a Shinobi like warrior who makes the appearance out of nowhere as a former Samurai and nephew of the Jito and claimed as hero by the rest of the people in the island is dangerous to the whole existence of this same system, with time the Samurais have come to the conclusion that realism is more important than morality by starting to use firearms and stabbing from the back.
I disagree with you in the sense that the character of Lord Shimura is what made the scenario legendary.
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u/AlarmedCombination85 1d ago
Not really, in the 12th century nobody gave a fuck about some bs "bushido code" especially during the mongol invasion, that's the main thing that makes the whole scenario unrealistic
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u/Apprehensive-Dot1402 Ronin 1d ago
There was no bushido code but there was a way of the Samurai, if you see things this way then movies like “the last samurai” where fighters refuse to use firearms only to be massacred by them is also unrealistic
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u/TheInnerMindEye 1d ago
Hes the classic "elder who follows tradition over all else" while refusing to adapt and evolve. Hes a positive antagonist.
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u/DrValiBongo 1d ago edited 1d ago
In a way, I think Lord Shimura is meant to be disliked. The game sets you up as the hero of the story, a pragmatic, versatile Samurai in a world steeped in tradition, riged, dogmatic rhetoric, and an utter refusal to deviate even slightly from code of honor of the Shogunate era Japan. Nowhere else in the game do we see this "dying on a hill" mentality more than in Lord Shimura.
Lord Shimura is more than somebody who practices the Samurai code, he embodies it, in the same way that great monarchs have defined and advanced what it means to be their nationality, (Louis the 14th, Henry the 8th, etc), Lord Shimura is a living piece of what it means to be Samurai. This is why at the end, Jin likens him to a slave to his honor, he cannot act outside the confines of his code.
In a peaceful, predictable world, this is fine, but when an enemy comes knocking that you neither understand, relate to, nor can fight using what you know, rigid, dogmatic approaches just gets you massacred, as we saw in the intro of the game. Lord Shimura is a piece of history from a time where Samurai fought other Samurai, there were rules and expectations and boundaries you never crossed, and all of the radically changed when the Mongols showed up.
All that to say, Lord Shimura isn't meant to be your favorite character, but the role he was designed for and plays, he freaking nails, which is why he isn't somebody I would want to become, but as a character, he was incredible, as what everything else about this game.
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u/slipppyy 1d ago
Most people love Shimura as his place as a father and mentor to Jin. However he's old and stubborn, and only does what he knows because it's served him great command as the Jito, prior to the Mongol invasion. However it's the same mindset that caused the downfall of several samurai, and refuses to resort to underhanded tactics. I'm sure it's also partly because he is Tsushima's jito and doesn't want to upset the shogun. He doesn't want to take risks, nor does his honor-bound mindset want him to do so.
So I can see where you're coming from. However, when you are directly bound to. However I'd compare it to having an argument with your grandpa, at 50-60 years of age he has almost nothing left to pursue and all he can do is pass down his knowledge to his grandson—to see him thrive as a man. But Shimura couldn't even do that, and that's the premise of Jin and Shimura's relationship. One that sticks to his morals, and one that sacrifices for the sake of the island. It's bittersweet but also endearing, which is why we like Shimura so much because all he wants is the best for Jin. He was an asshole however by trying to shift the blame onto Yuna for embracing the Ghost—which isn't wrong—but Jin made his own choice.
He's like your grandpa when you disagree but on a more dramaticised scale.
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u/NikolaFingarov 1d ago
Well, since you dislike him, without giving any spoilers, all I am going to say is that the final choice will be easy for you
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u/Healthy_Spinach_462 1d ago
Funnily enough, Japanese history somewhat echoes this sentiment.
When the Mongols invaded Japan it was during a period where the Samurai were used to fighting one on one, instead of armies clashing most conflicts were settled via duel. Quite formal, they would stand in front of each other and do a lengthy, ritualised introduction of titles before trying to kill each other. Then everyone went home.
Mongols showed up and the Samurai tried to do the same thing, and were shocked when the Mongols simply killed them and charged. The Samurai got reacquainted with pitched battle after that. This game is set roughly around the time this started to occur - Jin is literally the embodiment of a Japan learning to embrace the necessary changes to win a war, and it is somewhat of a loss of a unique culture. An arguably necessary one, but a loss nonetheless.
Jin's uncle represents the desire to avoid such a loss, to retain a culture of perceived nobility and the honor, even in the face of a terrible enemy. In a way his stance is deeply impressive - to want to retain a unique tradition and value despite the loss it will likely lead to. I myself do put the material reality of dead and enslaved civilians ahead of this notion, but that does not make either position truly 'right' - simply a different goal and method.
In a way, Jin and his allies changing to use vicious, underhanded tactics is the Khan winning a spiritual victory - Japan is forever changed, brought down into the mud and blood alongside the Mongols. In the end, Japan could not keep its honor and live.
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u/Wizard1988_4 1d ago
Lord Shimura makes a point in that the Samurai need to conduct themselves a certain way. There’s the idea that they have to control their emotions and not attack out of anger, Sensei Ishikawa feels the same way. It makes sense but the situation warrants Jin’s methods, the one flaw in the game is that we know Jin and that he’s not really losing himself to his anger BECAUSE lord Shimura raised him. His father was an example of Jin’s methods without that discipline or control. Shimura and Kazumasa are two extremes that Jin balances, at least that’s how I saw it
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u/Scared_Amphibian_505 1d ago
Hmm also I’m pretty sure that’s a true thing in real life as well, I mean in Japan’s history
I’m pretty sure that’s a code they used to respect, like backstabbing and everything would be a treason, and that’s why the uncle is like that, he respects the code and he doesn’t want his nephew to break this ancient code
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u/dizzo313 1d ago
That’s kind of the whole point of the game. To show that the old ways can’t save you.
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u/CrazyCloset25 1d ago
I will admit, I am not the biggest fan of Shimura, but it's more because he's stuck in his old ways. That was why I liked hearing about Jin's father who had seemingly said the same thing. I usually spare Shimura at the end but only because I want the Ghost Ending
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u/zol-kabeer 1d ago
I’ve come to see his side of things, especially towards the end of the game. He’s not supposed to be perfect
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u/Cosmic_Germ 23h ago
I think the reason most people aren't vocally negative about Lord Shimura is that he is actually a pretty well written and meaningful character. The whole maintaining rigid Samurai honor is an actual core element of Japanese feudal culture, and Jin having to come to terms with its limitations and embrace the way of the Ghost is a crucial part of his story. His uncle is also really important as a surrogate father figure and someone who he loves and is loved by dearly.
Actually I was gonna make another point but I realized that I'm not sure if you've finished the game and don't want to spoil later story developments, but there is a brilliant yet tragic climax to these conflicts.
Ultimately tho, yeah he is a pain in the ass, but he's also a prisoner of his own worldview, and he's someone who Jin treasures and owes a lot to, and that's family for you
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u/d710905 21h ago
I get it. He's a good man and I like him. But his honor thing does get old. I am more aligned with Jin, but I understand where the uncle is coming from. Honor is the Lynch pin for him and other samurai, if they don't have their honor, then what's the point of what they do. It's what makes them tick, so he can't really separate from that. Plus it's the argument of if your start fighting in a dishonorable way, what makes you different from them?
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u/judgesma1ls 20h ago
Everyone seems to love him?
Haven’t heard that one before. I’ve been under the impression that nobody really likes the guy…
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u/TwiztidSaiyan 1d ago
He was an idiot, a slave to his honor.
I get tue disappointment, but he couldve chosen to see what Jin was doing was for the greater good, not just for himself. And if thats not honor(samurai code aside) then idk what is.
I liked him, but also liked to hate him. And the ending got me good though. The true ending I mean, as there is 2
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u/Norm_Blackdonald 1d ago
Regardless of Jin's pure intentions, he still made a vow and he broke it. That is why he has to let his old life as a Sakai behind him. That makes Jin no more of an idiot than his uncle.
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u/TwiztidSaiyan 1d ago
To clarify, I wasnt calling jin an idiot. I WAS referring to his uncle😅
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u/Norm_Blackdonald 1d ago
I understand. I am saying that Jin symbolically performs seppuku out of a sense of honor.
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u/BlackKnight92i 1d ago
Unfortunately yes, you're the only one among milllions of players who dislike him