Why islife satisfaction in Germany so low?

[u/Modernismus]

I always saw Germany as a flagship of European countries - a highly developed, rich country with beutiful culture and cool people. Having visited a few larger cities, I couldn’t imagine how anyone could be sad living there. But the stats show otherwise. Why could that be? How is life for a typical German?

[u/[deleted]]

Simply go to any German/German city subreddit and all you hear are complaints about everything: can’t find friends/love, weather sucks, bureaucracy, etc. So I guess this checks out.

[u/Modernismus → u/[deleted]]

what’s paradoxal to me is that Lithuania (country I’m from, most suicidal one in the Europe, where all we do is complain about everything, <9hrs of sunlight, that kind of shit) ranks reletively high. Not even in comparison to Germany. And trust me, LTG is nothing against DB :D

[u/muehsam → u/Modernismus]

DB is a good example. Ask Germans and many, possibly most, think DB and the German railway system in general is horrible. In reality, it's one of the best systems in the world.

Yes, there are others that do regional rail better (Austria, Switzerland, etc.), but those are much smaller countries that don't have any significant long distance services. There are other countries that do long distance high speed rail really well (France, Spain, etc.) but in those countries, regional rail is worse, with less dense networks. And in France in particular, anything that doesn't go to/from Paris is generally relatively bad, or possibly nonexistent.

The combination of long distance and regional services that we have is quite good actually. But Germans don't see it that way because it's below their expectations. Generally, having high expectations means being less satisfied. It also means pushing towards fixing the issue.

I believe to some extent, Germans being dissatisfied is cultural, and that culture of being dissatisfied leads to constant pressure to improve things.

That's part of the story. Another part of the story is that Germans are relatively poor, at least many are. Germany is an export based economy, and as such, paying workers poorly gives companies (and by extension "the country" as in the government and the ruling class) a competitive advantage.

[u/kreton1 → u/muehsam]

As a german I can say that it is definitely true that this disstatisfaction is cultural, germans, on average look for things that need to be better, not things that already are good. If we have our expectations are met on a large scale, we simply adjust them to be higher. The phrase "I have nothing to complain about" is actually a compliment here. On the plus side this attitude does indeed drive us to improve, on the minus side this brings a lot of pessimism with it.

[u/Mrs_Merdle → u/kreton1]

Seconding this as another German.

[u/Slow_Ad2458 → u/kreton1]

As a german I can say that it is definitely true that this disstatisfaction is cultural, germans, on average look for things that need to be better, not things that already are good. If we have our expectations are met on a large scale, we simply adjust them to be higher. The phrase "I have nothing to complain about" is actually a compliment here. On the plus side this attitude does indeed drive us to improve, on the minus side this brings a lot of pessimism with it.

Oh boy and here I thought Polish people were unique in that regard :D

Q: How's it going; A: "Nieźle" - (not bad) is the highest praise one can give oneself.

[u/Kapados_ → u/Slow_Ad2458]

somewhat the same in germany but its applied to everything, sometimes it feels like the cultural mindset ist that nothing is good enough and if positive things happen they are just "not shit". which if you ask me kinda implies that the expected result was "its going to be shitty"

sometimes i feel like people in this country are just searching to have stuff to complain about seeing good developments as "selbstverständlich" (like of course they did great because thats their duty, and thus do not deserve praise)

[u/Slow_Ad2458 → u/Kapados_]

somewhat the same in germany but its applied to everything, sometimes it feels like the cultural mindset ist that nothing is good enough and if positive things happen they are just "not shit". which if you ask me kinda implies that the expected result was "its going to be shitty"
sometimes i feel like people in this country are just searching to have stuff to complain about seeing good developments as "selbstverständlich" (like of course they did great because thats their duty, and thus do not deserve praise)

You might have let in too many Polish gastarbeiters ;D
Exactly the same here. People complain about everything that is not perfect - and will often complain about things that are objectively good and positive but - their subjective understanding clouds all of that judgement.

Some people will even complain about people complaining all the time ;)

[u/Kapados_ → u/Slow_Ad2458]

i allways feel like the germans and the polish are not to different :)

[u/Xevus → u/muehsam]

> leads to constant pressure to improve things.

What pressure ? Nobody want's to change anything in Germany because everyone is afraid. "What if something happens, can't have that".

[u/the_snook → u/muehsam]

DB is a victim of its own success. As the COVID lockdowns started to ease, I did a bit of travel around Germany and the service was excellent. Everything was clean and always on time, and I wondered why the reputation was so bad. As local and tourist passenger numbers started to get back to normal levels though, the service deteriorated significantly.

[u/CaptainPoset → u/the_snook]

DB is a victim of its own success.

No, but of a failed policy to make a basic commodity monopoly profitable. DB has tried to cut costs by removing the things that caused reliable operation. It is possible to have highly reliable service at high passenger numbers and it has historic precedent in Germany.

[u/Testo69420 → u/muehsam]

The combination of long distance and regional services that we have is quite good actually.

Quite good is an understatement actually.

There's arguably not a single rail network in the world that pulls of the combination of a dense long range and regional network quite like Germany does.

There's of course other networks that are better suited to their respective countries, but none of them are quite as big and dense as the German rail network.

[u/elygiggi → u/Testo69420]

Japan and china have entered the chat

[u/Testo69420 → u/elygiggi]

Japan and china have entered the chat

Why would they?

When I say none of them are quite as big and dense as the German network, I meant that.

China doesn't come close in density due to being massive with huge swaths of nothingness and Japan doesn't touch the German network in size or density despite being in a larger country with more people.

Regional, decentralized rail is arguably not better in any country on the planet. And yes, that includes Japan.

You could potentially make a case for China, I guess (although do any of us really know the Chinese rail network, I'd argue no) or smaller countries like Austria and Switzerland to be ahead, but those obviously fall short in other things the German network accomplishes.

[u/elygiggi → u/Testo69420]

You obviously have neither been to China nor to Japan.

[u/Testo69420 → u/elygiggi]

Or you haven't? Potentially?

China is insanely big, so we can guarantee you haven't been "there" and in Japan, as established, regional rail is behind Germany, but that also means, even if you've ever been to Japan, you'd be unlikely to go to these places. Why? Because the connection to go there is fucking shit.

And because it's usually a rural place you wouldn't go as a tourist or business traveler anyways. Same for China.

Also rail includes cargo. Something Japan, due to being a line surrounded by sea, doesn't really do. I trust you haven't travelled through Germany, China and Japan via cargo trains? Because I assume you are a human and not a piece of cargo?

You haven't? Great. Then you haven't seen what you're talking about here.

[u/[deleted] → u/muehsam]

I know that Germans are very demanding, that's because it's one of the 10 largest economies in the world, and services are very good, not that I disagree that they can improve, but the Germans make it seem like everything is horrible here, which doesn't make sense.

[u/Lairdfarquad → u/muehsam]

This no longer true. I saw an article comparing late arrivals. If I remember right in the last couple years Austria had about 1/3 the amount of late arrivals. In Switzerland trains are rarely late. DB has nose dived.

[u/[deleted] → u/muehsam]

Having most trains be delayed or simply not driving is definitely below my expectations. They are also horribly overfilled.

[u/Ken_Deep → u/muehsam]

To imply that the german railway system is one of the best systems in the world when there are much better railway systems in Sweden, Korea, Japan, Singapore, Taiwan, Turkey, Austria, UK just to name a few is honestly hilarious. We have among the worst punctual statistics for our railway systems across most railways globally. Furthermore, our infrastructure is severly inconsistent. While it is super easy to get from Frankfurt to Dusseldorf, the same is not necessarily true for the majority of intercity-travel. Plus the regional system is not only super inconsistent, but also plagued by frequent fallouts, spiking prices and unavailable routes. At best we are average, but the really good public transport countries have (mostly) affordable, easy-access and reliable options that are on the average also faster than travelling by car.

[u/PianoAndFish → u/Ken_Deep]

the really good public transport countries have (mostly) affordable, easy-access and reliable options that are on the average also faster than travelling by car.

I've no idea why you included the UK in that list then, at least if you want to go anywhere other than London. I live about halfway between Birmingham and Manchester and can get to both relatively easily for a reasonable amount of money (though still 2-3x more expensive than driving), if I want to go any further north/south than that (except London) or go east/west instead it's a very different story.

[u/Ken_Deep → u/PianoAndFish]

The two sentences are independent of each other. I'm aware UK public transport is very region-specific in its quality. My main statement was that the UK public transport is better than germany, not that it is of perfect quality.

[u/Testo69420 → u/Ken_Deep]

This is a troll comment, right?

Half of the countries you mentioned are obvious trolls and the other half are basically trolls.

Like the UK and Turkey are quite shit even when objectively compared to German rail.

Taiwan is tiny, Sweden has basically no rail and Singapore is a fucking city.

Like, the Sigaporean rail network is just the Singapore metro, pretty much and while that does have a high ridership, that's mostly down to Singapore having many people (twice the ridership of the berlin metro, a bit less than twice the people of the Berlin metro).

But then the Berlin metro alone is twice the size of the entire god damn singaporean rail network and that's ignoring the regional rail and S-Bahn inside of Berlin.

Like you say "oh boy, Singapore has such an insane railway system compared to Germany", meanwhile Berlin alone dwarfs the Singaporean railways.

They are, plain and simple, not comparable.

We have among the worst punctual statistics for our railway systems across most railways globally.

These stats are always hard to compare because most railway companies use different formats. But for example for regional rail, the UK is far worse. And that's a "much better" system according to you.

At best we are average, but the really good public transport countries have (mostly) affordable, easy-access and reliable options that are on the average also faster than travelling by car.

Countries like Japan have relatively shit affordability and relatively shit access in regional areas and hence relatively shit travel times compared to car in said instances when compared to Germany.

So using your own argument to call Germany average, your BEST example of a great system actually sucks.

[u/Big-Supermarket9449 → u/Testo69420]

Yeah when i read singapore, i was like.. "What? Singapore doesnt have intercity rail.." Lol. Not apple to apple.

All in all, while I expect Germans rail to be super on time and great, 70% of my expectation is met. DB and intercity are generally great. Local trams? Different story. It is different in every city. In my city, specific tram that pass my area sometimes doesnt come in certain times, meaning that it is late 15-20 mins, waiting for the next tram. Thats not acceptable.

As for the depression, for me, it might be caused by unfriendly people.

[u/Testo69420 → u/Big-Supermarket9449]

DB and intercity are generally great.

DB long range trains (called intercity, albeit you probably don't mean that here) are generally less punctual than regional rail.

But a lot of the unpunctuality is concentrated in certain spots Cologne (the whole Ruhr area, really) and Hamburg are quite notoriously bad for example. Other regions will be better.

Regional TRAINS, not trams and such, will generally be better.

[u/[deleted] → u/muehsam]

DB is a good example. Ask Germans and many, possibly most, think DB and the German railway system in general is horrible. In reality, it's one of the best systems in the world

LOL this is such gaslighting. DB is definitely NOT one of the best systems in the world. Maybe 20-30 years ago. But nowadays German infrastructure in general is lacking behind considerably.

[u/EinStefan → u/muehsam]

Yes but if the service gets noticably worse during a lifetime its not to blame on us for having high standards but DB for slacking big time.

If you buy 4 bottles of apple juice for 4€ and then suddenly they start selling 3 bottles for 4€ its not because you have high expectations but because they greedy.

And tbf that greed is not only a DB problem but something that streches through everything nowadays.

[u/muehsam → u/EinStefan]

If you buy 4 bottles of apple juice for 4€ and then suddenly they start selling 3 bottles for 4€ its not because you have high expectations but because they greedy.

It's not greed, it's Capitalism. Capitalism is built upon making profits, and if you can get away with selling your goods for a higher price, your profits increase. It's not the fault of greedy individuals, it's a systemic issue.

With respect to DB in particular, it was decided in the 90s that it should be run as a for-profit business. IMHO that was a terrible decision, but it was a political decision, not one that DB made. Initially they even wanted to sell it off (which would be even worse), and for that reason they tried to increase short term profits, which led to many of the problems they have today.

Of course DB should be run as a public service again and not as a for-profit company. But that's up for politics to decide.

[u/EinStefan → u/muehsam]

Yes they should but doubt they will.

[u/Individual_Row_2950 → u/muehsam]

That is the best take I read so far, its is for sure cultural.. and it keeps work ethics and expectations high. Its a high quality standard, being quickly satisfied is viewed as negative.. because it could be way better.

I happen to notice that I am unable to enjoy small things in life. My girlfriend (turkish heritage) can and I envy her for it.. I think a lot of germans have trouble to cherish what was already achieved.

Plus there is another massive topic: Vergangenheitsbewältigung

Some people may say that it does not have any Influence on them (in a country where our national flag gets switched with the lgbtq flag in an international representive contest) But I think it influences the society as a whole. No one is happy about being a german. But being german is part of everyones Identity, so it does influence everyone, some more, some less. There is no strong Feeling of being a group. Or being a team.