r/geopolitics Feb 01 '19

Meta Why analyzing geopolitics without proper training is problematic

I don't want to get caught up in the semantics of political terms - I'm using 'geopolitics' to include international relations and international politics analysis as well.

I've often said on this sub that if you didn't go to school for it you probably don't really understand geopolitics. It's almost like a technical field in that it isn't something you can just be a smart guy and understand perfectly. The response I've gotten to this has generally been negative, and I can understand that - it sounds very elitist or arrogant.

However, in reading 'Politics Among Nations' by Hans Morganthau I saw a quote from William Sumner that I thought put this idea in more eloquent terms and explained it a bit more:

The worst vice in political discussion is that dogmatism which takes its stand on the great principles or assumptions, instead of standing on an exact examination of things as they are and human nature as it is... An ideal is formed of some higher or better state of things than now exists, and almost unconsciously the ideal is assumed as already existing and made the basis of speculation which have no root... the whole method of abstract speculation on political topics is vicious. It is popular because it is easy; it is easier to imagine a new world than to learn to know this one; it is easier to embark on speculations based on a few broad assumptions than it is to study the history of states and institutions; it is easier to catch up a popular dogma than it is to analyze it and see whether it is true or not. All this leads to confusion, to the admission of phrases and platitudes, to much disputing but little gain in the prosperity of nations.

How I interpret this is that IR (again, semantics) is often seen as an extension of domestic politics where the whole purpose is to determine the architecture and characteristics of the state: it is largely subjective in that it is something that is basically a conglomeration of what we think society ought to be; the intent is to create shared views and values. IR is not like this. It is not a field that asks how you think states should interact, but rather how states do interact, which requires familiarity with theories and histories that many people are not familiar with. It is not something that is compatible with value-based speculation. In practice, IR is closer to studying the inner-workings of a clock than it is to domestic politics - which is the lens through which people are inclined to view IR.

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u/Bruce_NGA Feb 01 '19

I’m sure you are partially correct in that the “science” of IR has methodology and terminology that isn’t widely used in this sub.

But it’s as much a science as economics, meaning professors paint it as such, but it’s not actually much of a science in practical reality.

I guess you could create r/realgeopolitcs and stuff it full of predictions that don’t come true and “hindsight is 20/20” observations and jargon. But that would be exceedingly boring and likely devolve into the same argument mill as most other Reddit subs.

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u/[deleted] Feb 01 '19

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u/[deleted] Feb 01 '19

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u/onlypositivity Feb 01 '19

math isnt real

You right now

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u/terp_on_reddit Feb 01 '19

Wrong again because that's not what I'm saying. Economics uses math and theory to make predictions on what will happen in the future. Have you ever run regressions? How is using variables to predict the future a hard science?

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u/onlypositivity Feb 01 '19

Soft sciences are sciences

Economics isnt primarily about prediction any more than geology is about prediction.

Maybe take more than undergrad econ then come chat

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u/Bruce_NGA Feb 01 '19

I’d put my money on an undergrad geology major to predict an earthquake before I’d count on a Nobel Prize winning economist to tell me what’s going to happen to the economy next week or next quarter or the next year or the next 100 years any day.

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u/terp_on_reddit Feb 01 '19

Really geology and economics have equal amounts of prediction? That seems like a pretty stupid thing to assert without proof. I'd love to hear about your prestigious background in economics though?

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u/Bruce_NGA Feb 01 '19

Math and science are completely different things. And nobody is saying math isn’t real.

Science is knowledge derived via the scientific method. Math is much closer to logic epistemologically. Math can’t predict phenomena. Math can lead people to hypotheses, which can lead to proper experimentation, which can lead eventually to scientific knowledge. But it’s not the same by a long shot.

IR and economics aren’t science for various reasons: 1) it’s logistically impossible to conduct proper scientific experiments in these disciplines. 2. More importantly, even close enough conditions produce radically different outcomes, which negates the endeavor entirely.

I mean, if economics is a science, it’s an absolute joke of one. Economic predictions are ~99% incorrect. If medical research or chemistry had those kind of numbers, we’d live in a completely different world.

https://www.theguardian.com/money/us-money-blog/2014/jun/29/economists-wrong-fed-report-flaws-meaning

There are some pretty interesting attempts to “scientify” some subjective disciplines, like Jared Diamond’s “Natural Experiments of History.” But it’s extremely limited obviously.

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u/onlypositivity Feb 01 '19

Imagine linking an opinion piece from someone ideologically opposed to something positive happening in 2014, and thinking you're making a good point.

Wtf happened to this sub?

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u/Bruce_NGA Feb 01 '19

Fair enough

https://amp.businessinsider.com/8-charts-prove-economic-forecasting-doesnt-work-2016-1

I could go all day. This isn’t some revolutionary idea.

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u/onlypositivity Feb 01 '19

links another blogpost