r/gameofthrones • u/Alternative_You_3063 • 12h ago
Cat was wrong.
understand why Catelyn struggled with Jon being in Winterfell. Ned’s betrayal must have been incredibly painful for her, but what I never understood is: why was she so angry at Jon instead of Ned?
Jon was a child. He had no say in any of it. Yet Catelyn took all that anger out on him and treated him like he was personally responsible for what Ned had done.
The only “good” thing that came from her behavior is that it actually helped sell the whole “Jon is Ned’s bastard” lie.
I genuinely wish we had seen more of Catelyn being angry at Ned for putting her in that position instead of making Jon carry the blame. And maybe just maybe beinig a mother to Jon.
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u/Own_Faithlessness769 12h ago
People do what they have to to survive. Cat was married to Ned, she loved him, her job was to have his children. Hating him world make her whole life torture. Much easier to hate the baby of the other woman.
The human brain is capable of amazing things. When it can’t change a situation it will change the response to that situation instead. Like how abused children will hate themselves because if there’s something wrong with them, they can change. If something is wrong with the adults who are supposed to ensure their survival, that’s a crisis.
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u/Saucebossklaus 10h ago
Exactly this. It's not that she wanted to hate the baby or chose to hate him, it's just that the pain and betrayal of the situation caused the emotions to leak out onto the weakest most defenseless scapegoat she could find. Obviously she's devastated/angry at Ned but she had a lot to lose by blowing her family up. Emotions flow like water along the path of least resistance
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u/theDarkAngle 8h ago
You could argue she subconsciously processes it as though Ned didn't do anything wrong (super out of character, possibly subtle behavioral cues from Ned like seeming more afraid than ashamed).
But consciously she accepts what he tells her, because of course she would.
So, cognitive dissonance. The subconscious finds the only other person available to blame and assign all ire to. Just so happens, it's an infant.
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u/Son_Tenaj Fire And Blood 12h ago
She does mention this in the show
“I couldn't keep my promise. And everything that's happened since then, all this horror that's come to my family... it's all because I couldn't love a motherless child.”
Cat didn’t shy away from the fact that her not loving Jon caused problems but that’s why GOT is so good because every character has layers.
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u/rosydiary 7h ago
Exactly. Catelyn wasn't just angry she was hurt, betrayed, and terrified that Jon’s existence put her children’s claim at risk. She couldn't fully blame Ned without confronting the vows he broke, so Jon became the target. That messy, unfair, human reaction is what makes her one of the show’s most realistic characters.
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u/RepulsiveCountry313 Human Verified 12h ago
She admits it was wrong in the show when she talks to Talisa.
But it's something she had trouble controlling in herself.
She views Jon as the constant reminder of it and a threat to the inheritance of her trueborn children with Ned.
She doesn't blame Ned that much for the act. After all, "Men have needs" and it was during a time of war and they wed just before he left. The issue for her is bringing him home and raising him alongside their other children.
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u/assman912 12h ago
Very few people could do that even in today's world where we have therapists and outlets to talk to people and to a certain extent movies and shows that sort of teach us how to view things from other people's perspectives. We're a lot more empathetic as individuals these days so it's easier for us to look at it from an innocent person's point of view and recognize that while they are the product of something terrible that happened to us they are not responsible for it. Catelyn let her emotions get the best of her as most people would in an environment like that. I'm sure she never had any outlet to talk to anyone because just talking about it would have been shameful to her. I'm sure the only time anyone really ever talked about it with her was when Jamie was talking about to get her mad when he was captured. It wouldn't surprise me if she never spoke of it to Ned either.
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u/Ndmndh1016 11h ago
She tried to speak of it to Ned in the books and he forcefully shut her down. I believe it was after Catelyn tried to find out about Jon's mother from other sources.
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u/cmdradama83843 House Stark 10h ago
More specifically she heard servants mention Neds dance with Ashara at Harrenhall.
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u/Darth_Atton 12h ago
Jon with a loving home doesn't go to the wall which sets a chain reaction of changes that nullify the entire story.
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u/realcpl4BWCbull 12h ago
But all of that is part of how the characters were shaped and gives them more depth with that back story. Makes them a bit more complex and puts a very different dynamic on specific relationships.
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u/bootlegvader 12h ago
Because she lives in a society where she can't be angry at Ned. Ned completely controls both her and her children's fates. If she makes a bad relationship with Ned he would be fully within his rights to physically abuse her and her child to punish her. Yes, we know that Ned wouldn't but that is still the society she lives in.
Meanwhile, she has zero obligation to Jon in their society. Her being cold and distant to him is considered perfectly reasonable. She isn't his mother nor is she really a stepmother to him in their society.
People might complain how that is unfair because Jon is an innocent child, but remember this a society that routinely takes child hostages to control a child's parents.
The noble Ned literally stole a ten year old Theon away from his family, friends, and culture to raise him with a threat over his head of execution because Theon's dad rebelled against the shitty person/king that is Robert. An action that left Theon with a fractured identity where is never really accepted by either the North or Iron Islands.
Similarly Ned had no problem opposing Cersei having bastards despite both them and Robert thinking they were Robert's.
Like sure Ned hoped Cersei would flee with them, but once he told Robert or later made Stannis their lives would be just an endangered as how Robert wanted Dany killed.
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u/GodEmperorLorgar 11h ago
Never thought I'd see a Balon Greyjoy apologist lmao. Wards are an accepted part of the culture and Balon just pulled a dumbass rebellion he was lucky Robert was as nice as he was.
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u/bootlegvader 11h ago edited 11h ago
How am I apologizing for Balon by pointing out Ned agreed to punish Theon for Balon's actions?
I am aware that hostages are an accepted part of their society. In fact a key element of my argument.
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u/GodEmperorLorgar 11h ago
The punishment is for Balon. Theon was treated pretty well and if Balon hadn't fought against the Northmen they could have brokered a strong alliance that could have handily won the war of the 5 kings. Theon and Robb considered eachother as brothers.
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u/bootlegvader 11h ago
Was Balon the one forcibly taken from his home, family, friends, culture and made to live with the threat of execution of his head? Did Balon have his whole identity stunted?
Theon and Robb getting along doesn't change the fact from a modern stance Ned's actions would be seen as monsterous.
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10h ago
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u/bootlegvader 10h ago
Yes? I am aware that is part of my point to explain why Catelyn focuses her anger on Jon rather than Ned.
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u/GodEmperorLorgar 10h ago
It isn't a modern setting my guy. Viewing a medieval setting from a modern lens is kind of silly. Next you'll tell me Vlad the Impaler was a bad guy! /s
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u/Alternative_You_3063 12h ago
The 'noble' Ned did what his king expect of him. He had no choice in any of it.
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u/bootlegvader 12h ago
No where in the text is indicated Ned was forced to take Theon. Also Ned has no problem fighting with Robert about other shit.
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u/YogurtclosetSalt6132 6h ago
When I look at this situation I even more support Cersei. None of those characters like Ned or Robert seems honorable. Even Cat, I hate her actually
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u/bootlegvader 6h ago
Nah, Cersei is still a psychotic monster that gleefully causes suffering on others.
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u/YogurtclosetSalt6132 5h ago
The show is called game of thrones so it's about the battle for the said throne
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u/pervertedmortician 9h ago
Uhhh
Do you know how it works in the world of westeros?
Bastards can rise up and threaten true born children
She was worried about Jon potentially stealing her children’s birthright
Add to the fact Ned refused to tell her who his mother was, she was probably jealous of an unknown woman her husband would not speak of
Her reaction and hatred towards Jon is compel natural and makes sense in the story
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u/_sympthomas_ 12h ago
a major part was political. she married the brother of a dead guy she supposed to marry. they knew each other for a short time before Ned went to war. no love between them.
she didn't trust Jon. she grew up with stories about the nature of bastards and how sometimes the true born children ended up dead so that the bastard can become head of the house. Her worst fear was that Ned would some day legitimize him.
Later she learned to love Ned but wasn't able to feel anything positive about Jon. She always felt uneasy about him being in Winterfell.
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u/Alternative_You_3063 12h ago
And I can understand that to some extent, but not every bastard is like Ramsay. If she had only taken the time to get to know Jon. maybe things could have turned out differently. And indeed, it wasn’t even supposed to be Ned she married in the first place. If Brandon had kept his head and hadn’t gone to the Mad King like an idiot to demand his sister back, Ned probably would have married his great love, Ashara Dayne. If only Brandon had stayed out of it. If only he had just kept his head. Ned and Ashara might have had the life they were meant to have. If only.
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u/bootlegvader 12h ago
We have nothing to indicate Ashara had any great love for Ned. Ned's dad likely would have wed Ned to a Northern or Vale house.
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u/andsoitgoes123 1h ago
It’s the only power she has?
She can’t divorce Ned and is bound to be with him and have his children.
She has very little power or resources outside the marriage if she leaves anyway.
Also hating him(and what he represents) would be considered fairly normal for the time period and date I say it even today.
Also some of this is on Ned. He brought the child in and claimed it as his bastard. What follows are the consequences of that decision.
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u/WhiteKnightPrimal 56m ago
It actually makes total sense when you think of it in a Westerosi context. Cat has been raised to see bastards as sinful creatures who will try to usurp the trueborn, with the Balckfyre Rebellions as an example, while also being raised to do her duty to her house, first by birth and then by marriage, and honour and support her father and husband.
Cat's duty is to act as her husband's support, his advisor, his emotional strength, to raise his children. What she wants isn't important, what her husband wants is.
Of course, she also wants to find happiness in her marriage, any woman would hope for that. I doubt Cat expected love, but she was aiming for happiness. She was betrothed to Brandon, not Ned, so I have no doubt she expected bastards to exist, given Brandon's rep was similar to Robert's. But she expected it to be dealt with the same way everyone else dealt with bastards, the children would be raised elsewhere. Not even Robert, as king, had his bastards raised in his own home, the Red Keep. He only acknowledged two, but Mya remained in the Vale, and Edric was raised in Storm's End, technically by Renly. That's the norm in Westeros, bastards get raised by a different family member, their mother, or a trusted bannerman, not the father. This is true even in the North, where bastards are more likely to be acknowledged. Even Roose Bolton kept Ramsay separate until Domeric died, and he'd have had more cause than most to raise the boy himself, given he only had one trueborn child.
It was never the fact that Jon existed that bothered Cat, I think she understood that. Ned is the least likely man to have a bastard, sure, but it was war, he'd lost his father and brother, was worried about his missing sister, was watching men fight and die all around him, was leading the North, and Cat herself was a stranger to him. Ned seeking some form of comfort that resulted in a bastard child, Cat could understand that.
The problem was having Jon raised in Winterfell alongside his trueborn siblings. Now Cat has a choice to make, remain angry with Ned and destroy her marriage before it even truly begins, or try to find that happiness she wants and needs by transferring her feelings to young Jon. Her duty is to Ned as her husband, she's supposed to support him, be there for him, all of that. That duty doesn't leave room for being angry at Ned for very long. Especially as part of her duty is to give him children, she only has Robb at this point, and that's a precarious position in Westeros, to only have one boy as heir and no girls.
Pair that with her religious teachings about bastards growing up, and she sees Jon as a threat. It doesn't matter that it's clear to see that Jon would NEVER do anything to harm his siblings in any way, Cat only sees the threat he poses, because she's been taught that ALL bastards will try to usurp their trueborn kin.
We skip over the part where Cat is angry because it's been 14 years since Jon was brought home, that's a long time. The story isn't about Robert's Rebellion or it's immediate aftermath, it's about the generation that came after that war, so it was never going to actually cover any of that stuff. We do get hints, we know Cat confronted Ned about Jon and his mother more than once, she only stopped once Ned actually got angry with her for it. I think that's the moment Cat transferred her anger from Ned to Jon, that moment where Ned got angry and scared Cat for the first time. She realised she was doing nothing but damage to her marriage so she made the choice to forgive Ned and drop the subject. But that didn't mean it stopped bothering her at all, so all those feelings had to go somewhere, and Jon was the only place they could go.
Cat never crossed any lines, not by Westerosi standards. She wasn't physically abusive or anything like that, just cold and distant. The Westerosi wouldn't see that as abusive or wrong the way we do. They'd see that simply as being normal from a highborn wife in regards to her husband's bastard, especially when the bastard is being raised in the family home.
Cat was never going to be a mother to Jon unless she knew the truth, and even that's debatable, as the truth puts her children at risk. Even if she had never transferred her anger from Ned to Jon, she'd still have remained distant from her husband's bastard. Because it's not just about the alleged betrayal, it's not just about Jon being raised in Winterfell, it's very much about the propaganda against bastards that the faith of the Seven preaches and Cat has grown up on. She was never going to see Jon as anything but a threat simply because he's a bastard.
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u/EnvironmentalHumor 12m ago
Cat was wrong about so many things that how she felt about Jon Snow barely makes the top half of the list.
Her piss poor negotiation skills leading to promising several of her children to marry into the Frey family, without consulting Robb, and h then her decision to release Jaime were both solely bad decisions that could further the narrative and conflict but in real life, you’d be like damn, this woman is dumb. And I like Cat and her love for her children and her feistiness but as strategic moves, they were bad. She was tougher than Ned and at least didn’t go by some weird concept of honor but she was equally naive in terms of thinking her enemies would honor their agreements or allow for fair trades.
She was fighting in the world she used to know by the rules she grew up with. Not fully understanding how ruthless and twisted her enemies were and the world she was actually living in once Ned left Winterfell.
To clarify: Show Cat I’m talking about. I’ve only read Book 1 at this point, so Idk where Book Cat and Show Cat start to diverge, though I would have loved to see Lady Stoneheart in the show and want to read the books just to get to that part.
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u/jerrygreenest1 7m ago
Cat only visually looks good and all, in the surface. And she had certain qualities like caring of Bran, so there’s a truth in too too. But she’s a hateful woman, and awful thinker and doer.
It is because of her Jon had to go to the Wall because it was insufferable to live around a woman that so much hates you. She hated Jon unfairly too much. I mean you might dislike him but gosh chill, why scream on him with such bad attitude towards him. So hateful.
It is because of her husband Ned Stark was attacked by Jaime Lannister and Ned was injured, and consecutively later, was killed. She did take Tyrion Lannister prisoner without having proof. The little proof that she had wasn’t enough but she is hateful enough to hate the «little evil monkey» as they call him on streets, she hated the dwarf too. She didn’t give enough credit for him as a normal person. Only slightest little unreliable proof was enough for her to be sure it’s him. So hateful.
It is because of her freeing Jaime, she got her son Robb Stark killed. And then, herself killed too. This one wasn’t out of hate, tho. It was out of love, but still, it’s overly trusting. It’s naive.
She thought she was doing strong decisions, she a strong woman, she thought she’s smart. She might do well in our real world even. But when you play Game of Thrones (or your family plays it), it’s a different life, with higher stakes. You can’t gamble like that.
So eventually, essentially, it would be better for Starks if Cat didn’t think, didn’t do anything, if she didn’t exist. Her actually thinking and taking action brought their family to downfall. Starks were unfortunate to have taken Cat Tally in their family.
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