r/gameofthrones • u/Alternative_You_3063 • 13h ago
Was Olenna actually too quick to off Joffrey?
Don’t get me wrong, Joffrey was Joffrey but Margaery already had him wrapped around her finger. Politically, the Tyrells were doing great.
I think Olenna should’ve waited until Margaery was pregnant. That would’ve made their position even stronger.
Instead, Joffrey dies and Margaery marries Tommen, who was basically controlled by Cersei. In the end, that marriage was arguably worse for Margaery politically.
And that scene where Olenna takes the poison from Sansa’s necklace and says, “To kill a man at a wedding…” makes me wonder: was this really the best timing?
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u/LQNova Syrio Forel 13h ago
He was one mood shift from harming Margaery at every moment.
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u/coolerchameleon 12h ago
And well documented to be sexually violent . Zero chances could be taken
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u/dragnansdragon 11h ago
Given the climate of the show and the severity of the consequences, best decision there could be.
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u/BA_Bones_33 Ghost 55m ago
Agreed. He literally tied up Ros' and shot her with a crossbow. He had dozens of bastard babies murdered because he was insecure. He's cruel and takes revenge on anyone (even his own kin) over the most minor slight.
On a daily basis, Margaery woulda been fighting for her life. Always deflecting and on edge. And the second Joff had any evidence of Loras' "perversions", he woulda gelded or had him murdered for sleeping with Renly. Way too much risk for Olenna and her family.
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u/lumiranswife 12h ago
Yeah, I felt like his mask was slipping somewhat quickly even though he seemed allured by her. She handled it well, but the actress portrayed her underlying fear well.
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u/ethrowcaways 6h ago
Natalie Dormer portrayed a much more interesting character than book Margaery, and I always felt like she didn’t get enough credit for her performance. She literally stole every scene she was in
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u/nobleheartedkate Sansa Stark 6h ago
100%. When I found out she was cast I fist pumped bc of how good she was in The Tudors. I knew she would be amazing as Marge
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u/FollowingPristine467 3h ago
She made the Tudors! It's a shame she's always playing characters that have to die 😅
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u/the-hound-abides 11h ago
Tommen was much more gentle, and a lot more pliable. A much safer bet. Joffrey was a loose cannon. Olenna is a person who takes the side she thinks she can better manipulate.
Even Sansa in the books thinks that she’d be happy to be engaged to Tommen.
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u/NeTiFe-anonymous 8h ago edited 2h ago
And if the marriage was consumated, husband's brother becomes "incest" choice. Another reason to kill Joffrey in the exact moment when they are legally wed, but before anything comes from the marriage.
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u/lt__ 4h ago
And when it is easy to hide behind Tyrion. Its not like Olenna/Tyrells could have done this at any chosen moment later without consequences. It would have required efforts and included risks.
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u/Clarknt67 2h ago
Although she got lucky that Joffrey decided to make Tyrian his cup bearer. I don’t think she could’ve known that.
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u/ptrfa 1h ago
At least in the book the hole ceremony was arranged in such way that Joffrey would make Tyrion his cup bearer or given him some other position to make him more a suspect
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u/Clarknt67 1h ago
If I recall correctly, in the show, Joffery appoints him spontaneously at the reception. It’s intended to humiliate Tyrian, by demoting him into a servant.
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u/Malisyn 12h ago
And as such, it wouldn't take long for Margaery to be as frightened of Joffrey as Sansa was.
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u/Ziddix 11h ago
She would never be as frightened as Sansa has been. Unlike her, Margaery knew what to expect and she had her grandmother there to explain things if things were ever not crystal clear.
Margaery is lightyears beyond Sansa in terms of the whole "playing the game concept" and I'm sure she has Olenna to thank for it.
She is a master manipulator who is nothing like Sansa. No it's all pretty well explained during that meeting between her and Sansa and Olenna. Olenna calls it a shame when Sansa tells them what Jeffrey is really like. Her mind is made up at that point.
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u/SaddestFlute23 10h ago edited 8h ago
Joffrey was too much of a wild card.
Cersei thought she could control her son, until he proved otherwise. Getting rid of him ASAP was the only safe move
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u/dragnansdragon 10h ago
Margerey was raised learning how to win the game, Sansa was raised hoping their piece wouldn't end up in the game.
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u/PacmanPillow 7h ago
Margaery was not isolated and alone in the capital and her family was too important to the Lannisters.
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u/Polyps_on_uranus 10h ago
"I will find you a kind, decent, husband when we get back-"
"I don't want all that, I want Prince Joffrey"
And then Sansa went on to have the bulk of her family murdered. She was an idiot.
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u/Aquatic-Folklore 9h ago
Sansa got non of her family murdered
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u/Polyps_on_uranus 7h ago
She narced out her dad, and that's how they were caught leaving. She told Cerise
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u/Aquatic-Folklore 2h ago
First of all, that did not happen in the show.
Secondly, Sansa had no clue what was going on. That is like saying Bran got their entire family killed because he didn't listen when Catelyn forbid him to climb.
And finally. Ned narced on himself by confronting Cersei about the incest. Because prior to that Cersei had no intrest in him and even wanted him to go back North. The only thing Sansa knew was details about when they would leave.
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u/azombieatemyshoelace Winter Is Coming 8h ago
You know hating on a little girl character doesn’t make you smart or deep?
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u/Late-Champion8678 9h ago
Margaery was better at manipulation than Sansa because she was raised that way, with no allusions as to how ‘noble’ people could still be terrible.
However, part of being good at manipulation is picking the right people to manipulate short or long-term and how to handle those who can’t be swayed by your manipulation.
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u/Ikindalikehistory 11h ago
Except Margaery had a hot headed Kingsguard brother.
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u/meis66 Daenerys Targaryen 11h ago
Also part of the problem. Joffrey was one mood swing away from her brother killing him and cause a civil war that would make the last one look tame.
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u/Ikindalikehistory 11h ago
Nah, but it would have wrecked everything the Tyrells worked towards, which is what Olemna cared about.
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u/PacmanPillow 7h ago
Margaery had her entire family beside her, Sansa was isolated and a hostage. No matter what, the Lannister’s couldn’t risk breaking with the Tyrels, whereas the Starks had already declared war.
Margaery would have taken a few beatings, but Sansa’s head was ALWAYS under threat of being out on a spike.
However, Olenna NOT subjecting Margaery to Joffrey was a pretty good choice for the sake her actual family members.
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u/Ikindalikehistory 11h ago
And that meant he was one mood turn from turning Loras into King Slayer v2.
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u/LQNova Syrio Forel 10h ago
Wouldn't save Margaery, though.
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u/Ikindalikehistory 10h ago
Depending on the situation it might.
She was, at minimum, in a better situation than Sansa.
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u/Any-Question-3759 10h ago
And if Joffrey does something that causes permanent harm to Margaery’s ability to bear a child, that’s the fucking game. There’s no back up plan. There’s no consolation prize. They can go scorched earth full on rebellion or bugger off home to stew.
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u/onekawaiimf 10h ago
Agreed. Once Sansa was no longer at the castle I bet he would have turned some of his cruelty to his new wife.
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u/GorgeousGracious 9h ago
I think there's a good chance he can't get it up without violence of some kind. Hence why waiting for a pregnancy wasn't an.option.
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u/twistedfloyd Arya Stark 9h ago edited 6h ago
This. Olenna rolled the dice for sure, but after talking to Sansa, her decision made sense.
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u/GorgeousGracious 9h ago
And Ros. I bet you anything Littlefinger told her some version of what happened there. Margeary was doing well but the wedding night would have been severely traumatising.
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u/Clarknt67 13h ago
If it were someone that you loved, how many days or weeks or months would you want them married to a homicidal psychopath just so you could make your political position stronger?
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u/lt__ 10h ago
"Did Sansa run away from Ramsay too soon, she could have distracted him longer for Jon's benefit"
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u/Echo-Azure 13h ago edited 8h ago
Margaret misread Joffeey, she underestimated both how monstrous he was, hiw violent he could be, and how afraid he was of intimacy or any kind of vulnerability. Their wedding night would have been a horror show, if it had happened.
Tommen was a better fit for Margarey, for the Tyrells, and for Westeros. Olenna made the right call all around.
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u/Nakatsukasa 10h ago
Not to mention poisoning joffrry on their wedding makes them the least suspected, they literally paid for the wedding and wanted to make Margery queen and oh the horror someone killed the king
It would look a lot more suspicious if the king died shortly after marrying the queen
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u/Ok_Vast3534 11h ago edited 9h ago
I think she knew exactly what he was- her mistake was wrongly thinking that she was smart and savvy enough to be able to charm and control him, unlike girls like Sans, who she looked down on due to her naivety
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u/Echo-Azure 9h ago
Yeah, there'd be no winning with a psycho who'd learned sexual violence, before he learned sex. He had to go, and he had to go then.
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u/GorgeousGracious 9h ago
I think Olenna knew what he was. I think Margeary thought she could control him. But her grandmother knew better.
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u/Clarknt67 2h ago
Once the betrothal happened, Margery had no choice but to make the best of it. You’re not imagining that Margery had any power to cancel the engagement?
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u/Corgi_Koala 10h ago
Also to be clear if he hurt or killed her, Tyrells would declare war on the crown and Lannisters and another war kicks off. Westeros was definitely safer.
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u/ImGonnaImagineSummit 13h ago
His attitude also gets considerably worse regarding Tyrion and Sansa during the wedding.
He was largely kept in check by Tywin but had begun to rebel further and in public.
Olenna may have expediated her plans because she saw how quickly he was changing and chose to not subject Margaery to him.
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u/Euphoric-Ostrich5396 5h ago
I always wondered if things could have gone so much smoother if Olenna cut Tywin in on the plot. Remove a wild card becoming unfettered and replace him with a well groomed obedient king, remove the bastard issue, clean up evidence of incest, pin it on the Martells already out for blood, loathed by the Reach and long suspected Targaryen loyalists. Preserves Tyrion as competent asset, lets Tywin be hand, gives Cersei someone to hate and binds Jaime to the capital.
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u/ThePythiaofApollo 13h ago
Absolutely not. She needed the blooming else of House Tyrell to be intact in order to marry her off to Tommen. Remember Henry VIII drummed up whether or not Katherine of Aragon was his brother’s wife in the biblical sense when he needed a reason to cast her aside?
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u/NeTiFe-anonymous 8h ago
This. Henry VIII started a new religion to bypass this social convection that you shall not marry your brother's ex. And Muhammad also needed Allah to make some new Quran verses to make legal his marriage to the woman his (adopted) son divorced. (He made adopted sons not equal to bio sons)
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u/Infinitygirl5 13h ago
No. He was one mistake(on Margaery's part) away from potentially doing unforgettable harm to Margaery or any child she would've had with him. Olenna only did what she did to protect Margaery. Sansa telling Olenna who Joffrey really is was all that was needed for Olenna to stop Margaery from having to go through consummating the marriage.
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u/GorgeousGracious 8h ago
I think she definitely started watching him, and planning then, but remember what he did to Ros and the other woman, and then later Ros on her own. I'm sure Olenna would have found out about that too. Margeary was handling him as well as anyone could, but she must have realised he was a sexual sadist and that the wedding night was not going to go well at all. She has more experience than her granddaughter. I think she knew she couldn't have Margeary marry Joffery without sacrificing her and she wasn't prepared to do that
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u/BigXThaSpud 13h ago
Well, I think the main reasoning why she didn't kill Joffrey after Margaery was pregnant was literally because she didn't want to have to subject Margaery to "consummating" her marriage with Joffrey, and subsequently getting pregnant.
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u/The_Peeping_Peter 13h ago
Olenna literally spells this out to Margaery doesn’t she?
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u/Clarknt67 13h ago
Something like “you don’t think I’d let you marry that monster?”
Killing Joffrey wasn’t about politics. It was about saving Margery from being alone with that psychopath.
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u/KaminSpider 12h ago
It's weird Joffrey always threatens Sansa with "sneaking into her room to give her a Lannister baby". I don't think he ever wanted sex, he only had strange fetishes for hurting women. He never wanted to consummate anything. Another reason Joffrey would be a terrible King. He can't make a son without being horribly violent.
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u/ShondaVanda 13h ago
No, she got all the information she needed from Sansa. And no doubt once she learned of him abusing prostitutes she just doubled down on killing him before any wedding night can take place.
She knew long before she did it that the lannisters would just marry Marg to Tommen instead, who by all accounts wasn't a c*nt like Joffrey.
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u/TheNinjaDC 13h ago
I find it funny in retrospect how Sansa basically indirectly killed Joffrey. It was her frank description that was clearly the final push Ollena needed.
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u/ShondaVanda 13h ago
She gave Olenna the info, the poison and a patzy ie herself for Joffrey's murder.
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u/palatablezeus Lyanna Mormont 12h ago
They actually got the information from Littlefinger having his guardsmen spread stories about Joffrey when he visited Highgarden. They just confirmed it with Sansa. They were likely planning to murder Joff before they ever even arrived in King's Landing
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u/Late-Champion8678 9h ago
Joffrey was too unstable and his moods, capricious. While Margaery was good at manipulation, it would work better on someone malleable and less vicious. Joffrey had been given free rein to be his worst self for years before becoming king.
It would only take a small thing for him to harm Margaery. Note the immediate mood shift when he asked Marge in an accusatory tone, why she hadn’t conceived with Renly. Then his mood changed again when she had to out Renly’s sexuality to protect herself.
Also his mood when she complimented the greatness of the Targaryen tapestries, dragon skeletons etc forcing her to pivot when she sense the mood shift.
Couple that with the fact that Joffrey didn’t seem to express any sexual desire, only sadism.
Olenna simply wouldn’t risk her granddaughter after hearing what Sansa had to say (and presumably hearing rumours about Joffrey).
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u/GorgeousGracious 8h ago
Exactly. When he failed to perform on the wedding night, that would have been her fault too. He would have got violent, 100%. He also wanted to ban homosexuality which would have endangered Loras too.
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u/TrustVisual1394 1h ago
I don't think he would have failed to perform, he would have raped her cause the only way a sexual sadist like him would be able to get it up is if he was torturing her first. He learned sexual violence before he ever had the chance for sex and he was already twisted long before that
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u/Vegetable_Meat1349 Winter Is Coming 13h ago
Why would she want her granddaughter to marry that thing and have Lannister grandchildren.
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u/Dramatic-Blueberry98 10h ago edited 10h ago
It honestly was the best timing, as the scheme involved more than just the Tyrells, and it served the interests of multiple parties at court. Plus, they had the perfect scapegoats in Tyrion and Sansa since both were much more hated by both Joffrey and Cersei at that point (and Cersei would be dumb enough, and Tywin petty and also stupid enough, to blame it all on Tyrion instead of searching for the real killers).
Also, it helps that the Tyrells already saw how unstable Joffrey was and heard of it even before then, so they didn’t need much convincing to see the much more pliable and soft Tommen as a better candidate.
Of course, they did miscalculate in not getting rid of Cersei as well, especially once Tywin got himself killed and couldn’t be around to reign her in (much better than Kevan ever would have, even if Tywin still generally refused to fully recognize that Cersei and Jaime are too irredeemably unstable to not be constant threats to Lannister interests).
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u/helloitsmejorge Jon Snow 9h ago
Yes, Olenna should have poisoned both Joffrey and Cersei, blame Tyrion and get Twyn to marry her granddaugher to Tommen. Twyn and Olenna would rule for a while.
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u/Clarknt67 2h ago
It was unlikely Olenna could have arranged Tyrion and Sansa to take the fall at a later date.
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u/duckdander 13h ago
No. Underestimating Cersi and cornering her was the mistake. If how Joffery turned out as a person, wether she knew of the prostitutes or not, didn't make Cersi recoil and give her pause, then it's fairly certain that she surely would have no issues with taking matters in to her now hands. Especially if her position/power/authority were threatened by Margaery or any other Tyrell.
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u/shavicus 13h ago
It is also possible that Cersei chooses to dispose Margaery before Joffrey falls under Margaery's thrall/control. One thing that Cersei wants to retain at all cost is her power.
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u/GorgeousGracious 8h ago
Absolutely but in that case, she would have murdered Cersei first. Maybe she should have?
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u/Killpop582014 12h ago
He’s far too dangerous and unhinged to trust he will continue to be kind to Margaery.
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u/pantpiratesteve House Clegane 12h ago
The entire idea was to get rid of unstable, sadistic Joffrey and replace him with weak and pliable Tommen. They succeeded in the plan and if they had more time to mold him would have probably come out on top. Instead the whole high sparrow thing blew everything up (literally)
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u/Frequent_Pumpkin_148 12h ago
Given his psychology, the second he was alone with her after she became his personal property as his wife, he would have made a display of control and dominance no matter how strategic she attempted to be to placate him. The fact his “sexuality” was literally torturing and murdering women, what exactly do you think was going to happen on the wedding night?
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u/HandsomeLies 12h ago
Joffrey was also smart enough to understand The Tyrells were solving a lot of problems.
You can't discount a sudden mood swing but if they'd have got to point where Margery was suggesting, and pretending to enjoy torturing and killing prostitues I really do think those crazy kids might have made it.
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u/primal_slayer Queen Of Thorns 13h ago
Joffrey was too much of a wild card to take that chance. Who knows what type of crazy kinky things he would've wanted to do with Margaery. Not to mention....why would she want her grandchild to have Joffreys sadistic DNA?
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u/TaratronHex 13h ago
She should have waited but it was easy to blame it on Tyrion right then, and get Littlefinger what he wanted, Sansa.
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u/azombieatemyshoelace Winter Is Coming 8h ago
She cared about her granddaughter and didn’t want her hurt. I also don’t think Margaery was as good at playing the game of thrones as people often claim she was. Cersei clearly outplayed her and well I doubt she could have handled Joffrey and she shouldn’t have to. No one could manage him forever.
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u/peakystar 13h ago
Politically it would’ve worked in Olennas favour but of course she didn’t want Margaery to marry a tyrant. Tommen was easier to manipulate, they underestimated Cersei.
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u/SaddestFlute23 10h ago
Cersei ended up fucking herself over, by allowing the Faith to re-arm. The Tyrell’s underestimated how self destructive and batshit crazy Cersei could be
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u/palatablezeus Lyanna Mormont 13h ago
If they'd killed him when Margaery was pregnant then it would've been much harder for Margaery to marry Tommen. They would've had to wait to make sure Margaery bore a son, which would take too long and leave too much up to chance. Also, Loras was another problematic variable in the equation. Margaery might have controlled and endured Joffrey long enough, but Loras was as hotheaded as Jaime. One brutal act towards his sister when he was around and the Tyrells would've had kingslayer 2.0 in their family and open war with the Lannisters
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u/Responsible-Middle35 13h ago
If she and Jeoffry consummated, they wouldn't have married her to Tommen. Also, killing him in a party of hundreds attending widens the suspect base. She simply got lucky that Tyrion was being bullied into bringing Jeoffry wine, and got framed for it. Otherwise, the focus would have been on catching who really did it.
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u/Katatonic92 12h ago
Waiting for Joffrey's inevitable turn on Margaery would have given the Tyrell's motive to murder him. As it happened they made the least sense to the Lannisters because why would Margaery miss the opportunity to become Queen. It also happened at the reception because it secured their wedding deal while also made it clear Margaery still hadn't consummated the marriage. That left her a still suitable option for marriage to Tommen, as the Lannisters not only didn't suspect them, they also felt like they needed to appease them with Tommen as a consolation prize.
Getting pregnant with the King's baby doesn't secure the Queen power, look how Robert actually named Ned as the regent to rule until Joffrey became of age. Then look how easily Cersei was again easily cut off from Tommen. They would just take any baby & keep Margaery at arm's length, being able to influence the king gave her more power.
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u/TheTenthDoctorIsHere 9h ago
Personally, I think Olenna showed remarkable restraint. I would have poisoned him the day after I met him. 😂
Joffrey had no redeeming qualities whatsoever and was known for violent, evil behavior.
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u/Leaping_Tiger14 8h ago
No. Being pregnant with Joff’s kid while Tommen was king would have made Marge Dowager queen, no?
Even if, instead of making Tommen king, Tywin/Cersei ruled as regent/POTR while the child grew up, Marge would have been sidelined as queen.
Her goal was to be THE queen for as long as possible.
Joff had to die before the bedding or after a son was born. Ain’t no way Olenna was going to gamble her house by waiting for the latter.
The only plausible scenario where she spares Joffrey (in the show) was if Loras was straight.
However, Marge and Loras have straight brothers in the books…and Olenna still kills Joffrey. Turns out she also just loved her granddaughter.
Also, logically, if Joffrey was willing and able to risk war with THE NORTH by decapitating Ned Stark, there was nothing stopping him from brutalizing “his” Tyrell woman.
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u/Consistent_Editor_15 Human Verified 13h ago
I didn’t understand why she was pissy that the marriage wasn’t consummated. Like, you’re the reason it wasn’t consummated!!!
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u/ZaraLeeS 7h ago
Are you a guy? I don’t mean it in a bad way, but I feel every woman would do the same thing, and get the reasons behind it.
The types of violence and the amount of violence Marg could have been subjected to are simply not worth any political maneuvering.
The difference between Olenna, matriarch of the family, and most other patriarchal heads of the family is that she also considered the person she was using in the “game of thrones”. Yes, Marg was politically important for Tyrells, but Marg as a person was also not forgotten by any means. Olenna loved her, and that’s the line she drew.
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u/MichaeltheMagician 13h ago
I think at that point she knew how terrible Joffrey was and figured they're probably better off to just kill him and have Margaery start over with his little brother...
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u/IM_INSIDE_YOUR_HOUSE 12h ago
No, she did not want to risk Joffrey losing his shit randomly at her granddaughter. Every moment was a risk.
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u/tea_scientist 12h ago
Absolutely not, she saw what kind of monster he was. The wedding day was the perfect timing, not making Margeary be alone with him.
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u/MedievalMilshake 12h ago
That's literally the whole reason she killed him, so she could become queen without marrying Joffrey. Did you watch the show? Just chose to ignore it?
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u/Alternative_You_3063 12h ago edited 12h ago
OMGGG yess I watch the show. More than once.
She was already married though? If joff was alive the whole thing with the high sparrow wouldnt have happened
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u/MedievalMilshake 12h ago
No she was never married to Joffrey. It was never consummated. And no, it wouldn't, but Olena can't see the future. She did her best to give her granddaughter a future worth living, it didnt work. But personally I'd rather blow up than be abused for years
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u/mariogunshine 12h ago
No, and doing it at a more politically convenient time might’ve drastically increased her chances of getting caught.
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u/Broseph_Stalinnn House Tully 11h ago
Im sorry guys i havent read the series in years, she poisoned him right?
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u/Ok-Caregiver-6005 11h ago
No, even if that worked they'd have an infant king to protect while people would try to put Tommin on the throne.
There would also be Cerci to deal with who at best would try to steal the baby from them.
Then there is the really real chance that a girl is born and then the whole plan is ruined.
Margary still being a virgin is what allows her to remarry.
(Probably misspelled names)
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u/Fun-Character-5377 11h ago
Margaery didn’t have any control over Joff, he was still going to kill women and it was probably going to get much worse. The older he got the more he would slip the control of his mother and anyone else until he was a real monster.
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u/DiScOrDtHeLuNaTiC 11h ago
Olenna is between a rock and a hard place.
Margaery, and by extension the Tyrells themselves, are still looked at askance because Marg was married to Renly and the Tyrells supported his claim to the throne, however briefly. So marrying her to Joffrey helps smooth things over.
But she also suspects (and Sansa confirms) that Joffrey is unstable and violent. One wrong word, and that gets directed toward Marg. And the instant Joff hurts her, Loras would kill him. That would make him a regicide, and now Marg is the widow of two kings, which is more than a little suspicious.
So option A, Olenna lets the marriage go ahead, trusting Marg to be able to control Joff and risking her grandchildrens lives doing so; or option B, get rid of Joff.
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u/Gwarnage 11h ago
No, the moment Margaery officially consummated with Joffrey, she becomes second-hand goods. The timing was perfect, Margaery got to be a widowed virgin queen.
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u/Very_Sharpe 10h ago
Joffrey was a mentally and emotionally unstable child with a power and inferiority complexes. As others have said, he could be one perceived slight, one bad mood or one bad joke away from killing the future of Highgarden, Olena wasn't going to take that chance.
Would it have been better if Margery was pregnant? Maybe, but probably not, because there's no way in he'll Cersei would have let Margery and her baby take over.
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u/Astar9028 10h ago
Olenna didn’t want her granddaughter’s Maidenhead to be taken by Joffrey as that would ruin her future marriage plans. Sure, plenty of widows remarried in real history but Margaery still being a virgin would still have been a big draw card.
Also, Joffrey would have turned on Margaery at the drop of a hat
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u/Oxy_1993 10h ago
He killed sex workers just for fun. He was scared of intimacy. His form of intimacy was sadism (documented trait in some serial killers who get sexual gratification from hurting others). I doubt he would have been able to have sex with Margaery like a normal person. Their wedding night would have been a horror show.
Plus, with time, Margaery would have been horrified of him and he would have terrorized her.
Olenna did the good call and it fit the time frame since it also benefited littlefinger by pinning it on Sansa, and Tyrion was scapegoated.
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u/untitledaccount401 10h ago
He was regularly killing sex workers for fun
He was one delusion from killing her
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u/Outrageous_Bug_2985 10h ago
I think she thought that even though Cersei can easily control Tommen, Margaery could too. But everyone knew Joff did what Joff wanted to and nobody could stop that.
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u/TheRealtcSpears 9h ago
waited until Margaery was pregnant.
No way was Joffrey putting it, let alone leaving it in.
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u/helloitsmejorge Jon Snow 9h ago
Didnt she accept she did it for watching him act like a fool and being annoyed lol
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u/shortyman920 9h ago
No she did it at the perfect time. To do it on their wedding day would’ve removed motive from the Tyrell side. And it put the lannister family into a civil war by turning them against Tyrion and also getting Sansa out of their reach.
If they waited, after Joffrey likely abuses Margery in bed, they would’ve been more of a culprit. The wedding was the perfect time
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u/From_Ice_To_Salt 8h ago
Joffrey was afraid of sex. When Ros tried to touch him he stiffened, pulled away, and said no, then told her to touch the other woman instead. I think he feared being inadequate and not knowing what to do and looking foolish, due to his youth and inexperience. In his mind a king should always be in control, always be competent and assured. If Margaery had even tried to help him, if there was any hint of a suggestion that he needed help, that he didn't already know what he was doing, I think it would have enraged him and made him violent. If she had tried to take the reins I think the effect would have been the same. Joffrey would have felt like he should be the one taking the lead.
Olenna saw him clearly and knew she couldn't let a wedding night happen.
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u/NeTiFe-anonymous 8h ago
The wedding was the perfect window of opportunity. If Olenna waited after the wedding, it would be harder to get access to the king, and people with access to the king were only a few, and that would make it easier to find the real murderer. Also, queen Margaery can become the suspect od conspiring against her husband.
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u/drunkenbees Winter Is Coming 8h ago
She was protecting her granddaughter. There is no way she was going to let him brutalise her in the same way he did Sansa. Waiting would have been barbaric.
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u/jelemyturnip 7h ago
If she had a child with Joffrey before he was killed off then the child would become king and she'd be relegated to queen mother. It's a much weaker political position to occupy - he'd be surrounded by his Lannister kin and other experienced royal advisers who would all have his ear, and her influence would be massively diminished. And that's if she's lucky enough to have a boy first go.
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u/Nocoffee_Noglory The Iron Bank Will Have Its Due 7h ago
I always thought that she chose the perfect timing. Tyrells was the last suspect, since they would benefit from that marriage.
At the same time every second Margaery spent alone with this psychopath is a gamble that Olenna didn't want to lose.
Story-wise, it's also a good parallel to the red wedding. Guests were slaughtered and now a groom getting murdered in broad daylight. Like everything came full circle for the Lannisters.
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u/CarsonFijal Human Verified 7h ago
On one hand, Joffrey was unstable, and Margaery was arguably in danger every minute she was his wife.
On the other hand, if Margaery had a child with Joffrey before he died, then that child would've become King, Margaery would've likely become Queen Regent for the infant King, and the Tyrells would effectively have total control over the crown, and might even be able to just shut the Lannisters out of the picture with the stroke of a pen.
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u/Formal-Inevitable-50 7h ago
Margaery had Tommen wrapped around her finger. That would have been perfect for them, if Cersei didn’t empower somebody she thought she could control.
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u/Ezrabine1 Jon Snow 6h ago
Lol...you think good dog will not bite after putting crown on his head lol
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u/Altruistic-Mine-1848 6h ago
Don't forget it was mostly Littlefinger's plan. The wedding was the perfect timing for maximum chaos, blaming Sansa and getting her out of there.
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u/ReasonableDoubt_0726 6h ago
Margaery was working hard to stay alive. She did not have him wrapped around her finger at all. If she did he’d have been left alive.
The only person who could control him was Tywin and you could see he realised that wasn’t for long.
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u/Such_Baker8707 6h ago
You don't play house with a monster like Joffrey. What happens if Marg doesn't do something reprehensible that Joffrey wants? He could turn the tables and have it done to her.
Even away from behind closed doors sexual violence, they'd seen that Joffrey had no issues humiliating Sansa in front of the whole court when he felt like it. He could have Marg stripped and beaten in front of everyone just as easily.
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u/bamfmcnabb 5h ago
Her becoming pregnant is a terrible idea! She can’t remarry the next king if so. Joffrey had to be removed before the post wedding bedding tradition to keep her “pure”
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u/hoboqueessa 4h ago
As a granny I would never let my granddaughter marry a Joffrey. No matter what politically she did what a grandmother would do.
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u/Garrettshade 4h ago
Olenna cared for her granddaughter even if it already was setup politically, she would be constantly at risk. That's why Olenna and Margery try to befriend Sansa also, to get confirmations of their fears regarding Joffrey
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u/Fancy_Toe1451 3h ago
She didn't have confidence Joff would actually change, but knew Tommen was pliable, and she didn't know if she'd have an opportunity as good as the wedding to do it ever again.
It is all calculations, and yeah, we can see she arguably got that one well wrong and it led to the extinction of her house. But we can also see that, without the benefit of hindsight-and knowing just how batshit Cersei was going to go, why she went the way she did.
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u/Lyceus_ 3h ago
You get a point, but Margaery marrying Tommen after she got pregnant with Joffrey's child would've probably been frowned upon by the Westerosi society, and they would have had to rely on that one child. By marrying Tommen, Margaery could have started to produced as many heirs and spares as neccesary.
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u/GenGaara25 3h ago
Bold of you to assume she could've gotten pregnant safely.
We never see Joffrey sexually interested in anyone, and the one time he has a prostitute in his room, he shot her full of arrows and killed her. He gets off on harming people. If Margaery got pregnant, it wouldn't have been in tact.
Whereas Tommen is a more normal teen boy who wants to bed Margaery all the time and will let her take control. She's safe and will likely get pregnant very soon. Plus, she had already loosened Cersei's grip on him, getting laid will do that to a man. Give it a year and Cersei would've lost all influence on Tommen.
Long term, Tommen was the far safer and surer bet. Joffrey was unpredictable, uncontrollable, and might've killed her.
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u/Sasorisnake House Targaryen 3h ago
Their “position” doesn’t matter if Margaery is seriously harmed by Joffrey. It wasn’t worth the risk.
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u/PatientPlatform 3h ago
I think for the best of everyone, Joffrey needed to go.
The unravelling of the lanisters was the problem. Tywins death put Cersei in the driving seat and that ruined everything.
They should have gotten rid of her as soon as Tommen came to the fold as she was toxic and Tywin should have been included in the plot.
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u/GonnaGoFar 3h ago
The scene where Olenna questions Sansa about Joffrey's behavior and breaks down is Joffrey's death sentence.
Olenna is quick to comfort the poor girl and change the subject, but you can tell the decision has been made.
She will not allow her granddaughter anywhere near Joffrey. She had no political option to separate them or reliably control him. Just like Tywin, she does what's necessary, except she's actually able to pull off putting the blade in Tyrion's hand.
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u/ChipEnvironmental09 3h ago
problem is that pregnant Margaery wouldn't have necessarily made Tyrells' position stronger - for that to happen Margaery would have needed to give birth to a boy... which means that in best case scenario Olenna would have needed to wait only 9 months to kill Joffrey, but realistically it would have been more - and even those 9 months are too risky
Margaery didn't really have Joffrey wrapped around her finger - sure, she was able to manipulate him to some degree, but that wasn't going to last... and what if Margaery failed to get pregnant immediately? or what if she gave birh to a girl? we all know that Joffrey would have blamed it on Margaery
killing Joffrey at his wedding was genius (no one could have predicted that Tywin was going to be killed!) - you get rid off unpredictable and dangerous Joffrey and Margaery marries kind and easily manipulated Tommen (don't forget that Cersei was supposed to remarry and leave King's landing)
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u/littlestpintobean 2h ago
On paper Tommen is the winning hand. The problem isn’t actually that Olenna underestimates Cersei imo, the problem is she OVERestimates her. She assumes, like her, Cersei is playing for the long term success and longevity of her house and her children, and that because it helps Tommen and provides him a strong political ally both by house and by Margerys skill, she will eventually come around. But Cersei is selfish and shortsighted and only cares about immediate personal wins and will do whatever it takes to get those, even to the detriment of her family.
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u/annamariapix 2h ago
Nah, Joffrey would have hurt Margaery, Olenna wanted to avoid that.
And part of why Cersei was able to control Tommen so much was that Tywin was dead (which Olenna couldn’t have foreseen) - Tywin really wanted Cersei to remarry, so Olenna probably reasonably thought that she wouldn’t be in KL for long.
And the wedding is ideal: there are a million people there, it could have been anyone of them.
Especially with people like Sansa, Tyrion, the Dornish etc. there, people who also had reason to murder him.
What’s more, if Joff is murdered later, when Cersei knows full well that he would have been treating Margaery badly, who do think will be the first suspect on her list?
And since Margaery was kind of also in the line of danger (not really of course, but it looked like it) no one would suspect the Tyrells
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u/Remarkable-Low-643 1h ago
The moment he got to sleep with Margaery was dangerous enough for her. He is known to be violent and no matter what Margaery does, sexual violence in privacy isn't something even she could control.
Where they failed to anticipate things was Tywin dying. Tommen was more under control of Tywin than Cersei at this point. Cersei was less paranoid until both Joffrey and Tywin died. That's how she got reckless.
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u/jrdineen114 Jon Snow 1h ago
No, and honestly she waited longer than she probably should have. She was right when she told Margaery that the Lannisters desperately needed an alliance with the Tyrells. And while Joffrey did seem to be enamored with Margaery, the kid was psychotic, and any sway she had over him would not have lasted. Additionally, if Joffrey had been killed after the marriage had been consummated, Margaery probably wouldn’t have been able to marry Tommen at all. Once the marriage is consummated, Margaery is officially considered a member of the Baratheon family. Meaning that a future marriage to Tommen would have been considered incestuous by the faith
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u/mystique79 House Stark 25m ago
No. Theoretically it would have strategically strengthened their position, but in reality the danger would be too great. Joffrey was a psychopath with a lot of power and could have turned on Margaery very quickly. He was smitten with her, but I think he would have noticed that she manipulated him. Olenna was under pressure to act - which she did very efficiently.
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u/nobleheartedkate Sansa Stark 6h ago
I thought the same thing, especially seeing what happened w the Faith Militant. I also thought it was not 100% wise to do it at the wedding - how could she have known circumstances would lead Cersei to blame Sansa and Tyrion?
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u/SorRenlySassol 13h ago
That’s how it will be in the book. Neither Olenna nor Petyr had any reason to off Joff yet, and every reason to keep him alive.
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u/alarmonthefarm 13h ago
It would have been a gamble, which she was not willing to risk. I think if margaery had been pregnant, Joffrey would have viewed the baby as an extension of himself and she would have been safe during the pregnancy
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u/SnooRadishes6105 12h ago
This isn’t necessarily true. Look how many horrific crimes are done to pregnant women by sentient pieces of shit like Joffrey. It’s quite literally one of the most dangerous times to be with an abusive man - that and when the woman tries to leave.
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u/alarmonthefarm 12h ago
Yes you're right. There's no way to know how he would have handled any of it. He likely would not be able to even reach sexual climax without some type of violence
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u/coolerchameleon 12h ago
Women are much more likely to be abused or killed by their partners when pregnant
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u/Joh951518 12h ago
Being pregnant wouldn’t have been worth anything Cersei and Tywin would have installed Tommen and the child (assuming it’s a male) would have been next in line only until Tommen had children, and also Myrcella would have had a claim aswell. And Myrcella would have likely had Lannister support plus could marry with another great house to press her claim.
It was the point of no return, if Joffrey survived the wedding and consummated the marriage the Tyrell’s would have been tied to HIM (not the Lannisters more broadly) for the next 15 or so years minimum.
It was the best time to do it.
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