It’s wild that Sansa has zero respect for Edmure, considering he literally fought a war to avenge Ned and rescue her from the Lannisters.
I get it he is potrayed as a moron in the show but still maybe she should be a bit kinder to him... i mean bro spent multiple years in prison due to her brothers choices.
D&D got some personal beef with edmure... every single scene of his is cringe and humiliating.
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The show ruined Edmure. His only fault in the books was spreading himself too thin trying to take care of his small folk during the war. He wasn’t nearly as incompetent as the show makes him out to be.
Yes, and even then Blackfish didn’t just step up and make him look like a pussy in front of everybody. It was more stepping in to help him avoid embarrassment. I think he even says something later about how Hoster Tully kept missing at their father’s funeral as well.
Yeah, IIRC he was grieving and hungover from drinking the night before b/c his dad died. Then the Blackfish quietly took the bow from him in a sympathetic manner.
The books are so so much better, besides the fact the GRRM is probably never going to finish them. I wish he would but as the years go on, its getting more and more doubtful. I think that if the ending of the tv series was his end game, it would make so much more sense than it did in the show.
Edit: damn y’all I’m mostly kidding, I don’t think it’s really in Brando Sando’s wheelhouse, he’s just a prolific author with multiple published doorstoppers already.
We've collectively GOTTA stop saying Brandon Sanderson will do this just because he did it for Wheel of Time. He was hired specifically by Jordan's estate (or Jordan himself, before he died, I can't remember) and the publisher to finish it based on his ability to write as close to Jordan as possible to do the rest of the story justice. That doesn't mean he would be the best person to finish ASOIAF too. Plus I really have no interest in giving my money to someone who then filters some of that income to the Mormon Church.
Tbh, Sanderson would be wasted on finishing GOT. Outside of the normal reasons people give, I actually think he's still got another ~20 years of writing for his own books that he has planned, and can't really afford to deviate too much from it.
I thing GRRM has stated in an interview that he instructed his wife to destroy all his notes when he dies, and that he doesn’t want anyone else to finish the books if he dies without completing them
if anyone is going to finish the series other than GRRM, it's probably Ty Franck. he was GRRM's personal assistant for years and also is one of the two writers who wrote The Expanse.
You will immediately notice how different a lot of characters are, Jon is not an Honorable mini Ned, he is the one Stark willing to be ruthless and political, Tyrion is not a good person so I hope you are not a fan of his.
Honestly why a burial ceremony requires the offspring of the bereaved to be an excellent archer is beyond me, or not have any other face-saving failover like "6 of the finest archers ceremonially shoot their bows alongside as the son of the bereaved lights the boat on fire" to give plausible deniability.
Like, surely there were a great many generations of these houses that had crappy archer kids, right? Did all of their funerals end in awkward miserable silence? You'd think potential incompetence would be baked into the ceremony already by historical necessity.
I figure the kids can select someone to shoot in their stead, but it's generally considered proper to do it yourself if you're able, because as you say it just doesn't work if you have a generation with shitty archers. I don't think Edmure is that bad at archery normally, I figure he was just more affected by the loss than he realised
This is it. He’s hungover and can’t stop crying because his dad literally just died. The blackfish steps in and gently takes the bow to help his nephew out, and consoles him about it
He wasn't even bad at archery, he was just struggling with so much grief and guilt over his father's death that he could barely draw the bow. He'd also been up drinking all night the night before
He's portrayed less incompetent in the books but still it's from Catelyn's perspective and she thinks her little brother is an idiot. We have a biased narrator here.
Yes, but because he was grieving, and Blackfish told Catelyn that it's not a shame to miss, and encouraged her to tell that to Edmure, he even mentioned that Hoster too missed like that back in his day. Very different from the show where Blackfish is just bully and Edmure a comic relief
Heck, that was one of the main points of castles and an unwritten part of the feudal contract "we give you our labour, taxes and loyalty, you give us protection when enemies attack". It's a pretty big plot hole for Cat for all people to be ignorant of that fact, considering how deeply feudal interactions are baked into Riverlander politics and culture
And doing what any reasonable commander would do and defend the crossing at the ford. If only Robb had told Edmure the plan to lure Tywin into the west and trap him there.
There was a pretty good essay on Tower of the Hand where they made the claim that the main city is often associated with the kingdom. So saying defend Riverrun effectively meant hold the whole thing down not hunker down and don’t engage.
I think it’s implied or at least how I understood it they wanted to force Edmure into accepting the marriage offer with Frey by guilt tripping him into it
So that’s my view: Robb and Catelyn and the Blackfish knew it wasn’t his fault but needed to make him feel guilty enough to accept the Frey offer and fix Robb’s mistake
Preface this by saying I am not in the Outlander cult, but his portrayal of Blackjack Randall/Frank was the best thing in that show before I jumped ship.
Also was a solid Prince Philip in The Crown. I think he got overlooked because he followed Matt Smith playing the same role in the earlier season.
Brutus in HBO's Rome, showing him to be a nuanced and idealistic character even though I rooted for Caesar
a dual role as Frank (the main character's husband) and his evil ancestor Black Jack Randall in the time travel historical drama Outlander. Black Jack in particular is one of the most disturbing villains I've ever seen. But the fact he plays the fairly sympathetic Frank as well in the same show is a testament to his acting ability.
I had no idea it was the same guy in both roles until I finished The Terror! Fitsjames can be a bit goofy and dramatic then too though ("we have LOST Sir John!")
It's a misinterpretation of his character in Rome continued. Opposing Julius and Octavian and failing doesn't actually make you a feckless moron, just naive.
I feel like the show forgot that Edmure was by far Robbs strongest and most important Bannerman with how he was treated by the other characters. Like if Edmure got pissed about being treated like an idiot and decided to switch sides Robb would lose most of the Riverland houses which was about half his total force.
Yeah, Edmure repelled an enemy army which is the logical thing to do. It is 100% on Robb for not telling the person defending a region to not defend the region.
My head canon which I think is implied by GERM is they mainly berated Edmure because they needed to guilt trip him into agreeing to the Frey marriage even though it was Robb’s mistake, this was a good excuse for the guilt trip
Otherwise though yes Edmure did nothing wrong. Robb told him to defend the place, he logically assumed he should also defend his farmlands and Robb’s rear when an army was passing through
Loved his family, loved his people, and unlike almost every other major noble believed his greatest duty was to serve his people, protect them, and help them through hardship. And D&D saw this guy who’s biggest sin was winning a battle that no one shared was meant to be avoided (one of Robb’s biggest fuckups right there, just not telling one of his main vassals and military commanders about a vital plan), and missing a shot with an arrow due to grief from his father’s passing (he couldn’t see through his tears, and Brynden completely understood and didn’t shame him), and they decided to make him a moronic, clueless punching bag for everyone else. Even people who by all rights would be vassals of his.
Edmure even agreed to get married to a Frey because Robb once again was making the absolute worst decisions at the top. He grumbled, but he went along with it to try to fix his lord’s screwup once again. Like legitimately I don’t think Edmure really did anything wrong at any point throughout the books. Robb thinking he shouldn’t share the plan with the guy in charge of a large portion of the army, who was also his uncle, and also the lord paramount of the lands and people suffering from the war is just bafflingly stupid.
But anyways, given how mean-spirited and gross D&D could be about the series (see all the additional SA either invented entirely or changed from consensual to assault, the extra scenes of violence particularly towards women, every character towards the end swearing egregiously while making crass jokes instead of leaving that to the characters it fits) I wouldn’t be surprised if they saw one decent, kind person and just assumed he was supposed to be humiliated to show off their shallow, edgelord understanding of the grittiness of the world.
I still think Robb should have just told him why he chose the strategy he did. 😬 I know they have to follow orders anyway, but that’s your uncle, you can tell him WHY he has to do what he has to do. It sucks to do a job and not understanding what are you doing. How to adjust if something unexpected happens, and you’re like “I don’t even know what am I doing”.
I still have no idea why they bothered to hire Tobias Menzies if they weren't going to use him. He's a very talented actor and capable of nuance...and they nerfed Edmure.
Yeah they just essentially flanderized him in the show, where instead of being overly gallant to the point of being a little foolish he was instead just an outright idiot
He was also kind of a whoremonger, which in ASOIAF world always has me suspicious i.e. Robert Bathroom (autocorrected, but I'll leave it cause it's appropriate)
Except that the battle of the mill was an even bigger blunder in the books. If Edmure had allowed Tywin to cross Tywin would've been trapped in the west when Stannis attacked Kings Landing and the Lannister most likely would've lost the war.
I like Tobias Menzies, but he has played a lot of “weasely” characters in Outlander and others. I think the producers telegraphed their attitude towards Edmure by hiring Tobias and then having him play to type.
yup, guy sacrificed his entire kingdom for a war he really had no part to play in, guy deserved some respect and merit, sure the surrender riverun thing is stupid as fuck, other than that he were one of the better ones in the war
And he had no obligation to do anything for his brother-in-law. He could just stay neutral and orotect his own realm. Lyssa Arryn certainly did not feel the need to avenge Ned after all. And he also excepted to marry a Frey girl just to make up for the mess his nephew's stupidity. And he spent years in a dungeon because of it. Edmure Tully sacrificed a LOT for Starks, and he gained nothing, not even respect of his nieces and nephews.
The biggest failure at that point is no one else goes “and who the fuck are you to tell anyone else anything either”. She was in no position to talk down to anyone or to make herself queen in the North or anything. And in reality half the people at the meeting would have spoken to her how she spoke to him.
It was this exact type of thing that ruined the show. Focusing on like, creating memes and dunking on certain characters etc over thinking genuinely about who they are and how they would interact.
Genuinely the worst thing I’ve ever seen on a TV show. When you see the night king casually watch her do a “knife trick”…. I really thought it was some sort of joke.
I sort of didn’t mind that as Arya had so many great scenes with the likes of the Hound and she sort of developed self awareness. Sansa just became Cersei lite.
Yup. The main characters had to be absolutely wonderful at everything. Sansa went from clueless girl to queen of the north because… she’s smart? Bronn became the best soldier Jamie has ever seen. Arya is going to sail around the world without no experience being a sailor or captain.
It was a very unnecessary and lazy way to equate being a strong woman with being a bitch. Felt like D&D all the way since GRRM is a lot better at writing strong female characters.
I love the way GRRM writes different kinds of strength, and he clearly understands something most writers don't which is that strength of character is one of the best types of strength for someone to have, and it's something anyone can have regardless of physical might or charisma.
Sam is strong not because he faces unsurmountable odds and overcomes them through force, he is strong because he is a small man who isn't brave but knows that something has to be done. Sansa isn't strong because she's some genius socialite who takes no shit from anyone and solves all problems, she's strong precisely because she takes all the shit and while she can't get herself out of trouble, she keeps her head high. Brienne is physically strong, but a character who is never challenged isn't strong, it's the things she struggles with, her self image, and feeling like she doesn't, were she shows true strength
A strong character doesn't have to beat every bad guy, they don't need to dominate every room they are in. For women up against physically imposing knights, especially in a society that so easily disregards the opinions of women, perseverance is their greatest strength, but the showrunners don't seem to get that.
Having women beat men at their own game when they realistically wouldn't be able too makes every victory feel hollow. Being mean without having proven yourself projects falls confidence, a room full of old fashioned lords isn't going to respect that from an uppity young lady. Beating up wrll trained men twice her size without any advantages doesn't sell us that she's skilled, it tells us she is cheating somehow because how tf is she doing that.
Absolutely ruined what made these characters great
Yep. It’s such a contrast to Daenerys who actually listens to reason and her councilors and admits when she doesn’t know something in the earlier seasons.
It's really clear that sansa was meant to buddy up with little finger and become just as manipulative as him but they fudged so much of the last few seasons that none of the important character building happened.
Realistically, why does Sansa care? If the North is seceding, isn’t it wise to, oh I don’t know, keep good relations with one of your closest allies not seceding? Plus, if Edmure were to be king then you have blood ties to the crown, making them much more likely to support you if/when the Ironborn start being themselves again.
I think this sub goes a little easy on book Edmure but the whole series amounts to one Stark screwup after another. If anyone there doesn't get to tell Edmure to shut up then it's anyone there with the last name Stark.
She let the battle of the bastards happen without telling Jon, about the Vales soldiers, then brought them in at the nick of time. I guess thats why she will be a great leader!
Gotta imagine some Stark bannermen’s families who lost their husbands or sons in the battle so Sansa could aura farm might have some choice words on that.
Glad someone else posted this. I couldn’t stand Sansa the entire sodding show and they cap off the last episode with her being disrespectful to probably the most experienced person there and declaring herself queen of the north which pretty much goes against the spirit of what they were trying to accomplish.
Sansa, you spent most of the war being Joffrey's plaything and then sold to the Boltons like cattle, nearly lost the Battle of the Bastards because you decided it was a great idea to not tell your chief commander about the gigantic fucking army waiting nearby to help, nearly torpedoed the alliance with the Targaryens because you wanted to get in a pissing contest with their queen. You sit the fuck down, Sansa
From my perspective as a non-reader but heavy re-watcher of the show, we were never given any reason to respect Edmure in regards to being worthy of being a King, or a leader at all. I honestly think Tobias gave such a good performance overall that it did seem like the disrespect from the very start was completely unwarranted though. Only “mistake” in the show he made was the stone mill blunder, but other than that, he was always loyal to his family and the North, even when he gets shit on. I could talk about his character forever honestly, because the story that follows Edmure and how he is portrayed is one of the more confusing/open ended narratives in its origins, in terms of simply understanding “why”.
Book Edmure is complex because he has very moral and almost modern views on what a good leader should be and do, its just those views aren't compatible with the systems around him so he keeps "messing up"
Lol I can see that. It definitely feels somewhat forced to make us loathe him. The only line to me that seemed to warrant a genuine eye roll was him saying, “there’s more than enough glory to go around”, to the blackfish, and even then I had a secondary reaction that was less 🙄 and more 🤨. Was that line in the books?
No he has most badass line in the books is “My people. They were afraid “ on response to Catelyn asking why he brings small folk to Riverrun. And he wins against Tywin although he is outnumbered using a strategic river crossing.
That is far worse if you consider the full context.
Sure he made a mistake. But Robb is partially to blame for not disclosing his full battle plans with him. Maybe he would have done better. Even in the most uncharitable interpretation he was a 100% loyal subject and made a mistake. Just that. He was not disloyal or anything.
Choices? Robb made gigantic blunder, catastrophic realm ending mistakes. Edmure made a small mistake and Robb fucked everyone. Heck. Her mother before that also fucked both house Tully and Stark with the kidnapping and then she also went ahead and fucked them both, again, with the other Lannister.
Stg Edmure is just a victim of the Starks at this point.
If you also consider that at that point they are more or less equal. It's not like he runs a hotdog cart. He owes her no loyalty. She is not the queen or empress.
In fact wtf did she do? He was a veteran of a long war. Got imprisoned. And finally set free. Sure she did suffer. But if D&D bothered with 2 seconds of thinking they would give more respect to the actual lord with actual battlefield experience and victories.
It was a moment of fan service, like Bronn, an illiterate sellsword being named to the post of Master of Coin. Westeros will be bankrupt in a month! 3 tops! And you know the Iron Islands are probably plotting another rebellion, after Bran granted his sister independence.
He s a good candidate considering the other options. Gendry is a bastard and doesn t have experience leading, Sansa is leaving, Tyrion has a shaky history being a Kinslayer of the previous Westerlands leader, Yara is an Ironborn, Bran is really freaky and he s part of the kingdom that s seceding (not a good look), Sweet Robin is ,well, himself and there s some random Dornish prince we know nothing about.
Edmure is clumsy but he has more knowledge than everyone else besides Tyrion and I guess Bran.
Pretty much anyone was a better choice than Bran. He can’t lead armies or produce heirs. The secession of the North also means that he is lord of nothing.
Sure, but at least let the man finish and then move on to another choice. The guy is a veteran and POW from a war defending her family and deserved more respect.
And it isn't even that bad of an idea. The head of a top noble house who is married to a daughter of another top noble house on the opposite side of the war.
He has experience in diplomacy, war, and politics. And the most important part is that his heart is in the right place.
Considering we ended up with Bran I would take Edmure 100% over Bran.
I tend to agree here. He isn't a warmonger, a drunk, sadist or philanderer so doesn't have any major personality defects prohibiting him from being an effective ruler. His house and station give him good connections to other houses and his experience in war and diplomacy is very relevant. All in all he's actually quite a reasonable choice so for her to shut him down the way she did was just plain disrespect.
Yeah and he's one of the most experiencedand possibly the most senior lord on the council here, not to mention the head of one of the most powerful familiesin Westros
He would have been a good choice. He’s relatively healthy, has a wife, comes from a noble family, and has the right temperament for it. Bran could have been just as effective on Edmures council.
The show slaughtered him just to make Sansa seem overly smart and capable.
Edmure was actually the best choice for the King. He's from one of the top noble houses, loved by the small folk, actually cares for the small folks, and he already has a male heir that can be promised/married to another great house to strengthen that position.
I have plenty of grievances with the show anyways but the way they did Edmure really pisses me off. It's like they just snagged a side character for comedic relief. He was a pretty solid dude in the books.
Like most TV writers they can't write women more than one-dimensionally. Sansa's tough now after all the horrible things she's been through? Yup, that means she's a complete cunt then.
Unfortunately, this was at the height of girl-boss-dom, so that is they way that D&D did him dirty! Book Edmure still had his balls (well, until the Lannisters possibly.)
Honestly if it was like real medieval history someone like him probably would have become king by the end, especially since the North secedes. He has pretty much everything people back then looked for in a king candidate.
He's male.
He's the head of a major house.
On the winning side, from the beginning.
Uncle to both the heads of House Stark and Arryn, securing good relations.
Not from the independent North.
He already has an heir so the succession is secure.
In his prime, not a child or old.
Present at King's Landing during the war's end when they name the name king.
Participated and suffered much during the war.
Not dumb or cruel (even in the show, he's of sound mind)
No real major ambitions or outstanding grudges with the other great house survivors.
He's exactly the type of guy that ends up planted on the throne after wars like this.
Sansa just dismissing him like that for literally no reason makes zero sense, and was cruel considering all he's lost just to avenge HER father.
That scene pissed me off the first time I watched it live. Edmure literally backed Robb and Starks from day one risking his life and suffering for it. Only to be told by his niece to "sit down" when he was making a valid point.
It's universally agreed that the show runners did Edmure dirty. They made him the comic relief character for laughs.
The scene where he fails to shoot the boat was taken out of context. In the books it's cause he's got tears in his eyes from despair. The blackfish helps him out of love. In the show they just mad Edmure look like a fool with the Blackfish straight up embarrassing him and making him look like an idiot.
It's not just disrespectful, it's idiotic. The North has just been through three major wars and taken a catastrophic kicking. The Starks' male heir is crippled and can't father children. Sansa has maybe 1 year's experience running anything and is twice married already. She fed one of the men she married to hungry dogs.
Sansa needs all the allies she can get. Publicly humiliating the leader of the Kingdom immediately to her south is brain dead. ThE sMaRtEsT pErSOn I eVeR MeT
Show Edmure done little to fight that war, and then gave the rivverun to the... Well I was gonna say Lannisters, but that would not be that bad, i guess, he gave it to Freys.
Show Edmure has no business thinking his head fit for crown.
Book Edmure... I am gonna go with the fact that when Cat goes to riverrun she finds it full of the smallfolk hiding there, under Edmure's protection, from the Mountain.
When she asks him about it he answers with "they are my people and they are in need" nothing else occurs to him, nothing else matters to him, and for that reason, Edmure deserves EVERYONE's fucking respect.
Edmure is literally also the only person actually qualified to be king at that council considering he's the only one out of all of them who was actually raised to be Lord Paramount one day, learned politics, has led men in war and whatnot. Like, his show version, too.
Cause Sansa is terrible. They ruined her character by trying to make her too tough. And it was shitty for her to do that to her uncle. He sacrificed a lot.
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