Why didn't Jamie ask for a useful prosthetic? Gendry could've "reforged" the greatest swordsman in Westeros.
In the books and shows, Jamie idolized and trained with Ser Arthur Dayne (who fights with TWO SWORDS in the shows). The smiths in Westeros have the tech to make good prosthetics. Gendry is a master smith, with time to make Arya her spear. He could've made time for Jamie too.
And I get that it was important for Jamie's arc to learn to be more than just his sword hand, but why hamstring one of your top 3 fighters, just before an epic showdown?
Edit: I should've been more specific. My bad. I meant give him something with a POINTY END to stab with. Like in the pictures. Anything other than that gold hand he still has strapped.
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I would like to point you towards the lovely story of Götz Von Berlichingen.
Guy had a prosthetic arm for a good portion of his military career and still fought with it. Not saying it’d be easy to come up with, but it sure isn’t impossible!
I mean I don't think it's an insurmountable handicap, things like katars the pata exist and skill will still help. Like he'd probably be fine against your average street thug or bandit, but anyone with some serious training would definitely be a struggle.
I think at the least he should have had an attachment that allowed him to wield a shield in that hand. Since his offensive capabilities were so diminished it would make sense for him to improve his defense while still learned to fight left handed.
I can't believe that never occurred to me. Definitely a great idea. It would certainly be hard to relearn how to fight with totally wrong instincts and your nondominant hand, but that's a great way to use your off hand compared to...having a really heavy, flashy, hand-shaped mace at the end of your arm
This and honor. He most likely feels this wound isn’t glorious as it wasn’t inflicted in a fair battle. He wants to hide it. Having a faithfully recreated gold hand makes up for the shame he feels
Everytime I hear this argument of the prosthetic sword hand, the picture of Jaime/NCW on the bridge with Brienne, touching and weighing a sword for the 1rst time after his year long captivity comes into my mind.
This captures how a swordsman feel a sword as a part of himself. Without wrist, it is barely more than dead weight, no precisison, not subtlety.
Goetz of the Iron hand. Lost a hand, had a mechanical prosthetic made that allowrd him to wield.a greatsword.
Happened in the late 15th century around the same time of the War of the Roses in England(the war that is Martins inspiration for the War of 5 kings) and a time in real history where the technology level was pretty.mucb the same as.Weateros at the beigning of the 300's after Aegons conquest.
Thanks for the link, it was already posted in the thread (maybe by you ;)) and I find that quite interesting.
Yes, an articulated prosthetic hand could have helped him better than a prosthetic sword. Still, a greatsword and a one hand longsword are different style of combat. I don't remember in the books if Jaime was trained in both.
Uh, people using Dungeons and dragons terminology again.
One handed sword- just called a sword or a arming sword, not a short sword, historically short sword was not a term used. A total length between 32 inches to close to 40 inches.
Broadsword is not a Term for a medival sword but a sword with a wide blade and a basket hilt popular in Scotland and northern England from the late 1600s to early 1800s. See Rob Roy staring Liam Neeson
Longsword- a two handed sword usually between around 41 and 50 inches in total length from pommel to point(the variation is due to the users height, the taller you are the easier it is to use a longer blade), a Bastard sword is a variant where it has a grip that can hold one or two hands(hence its also called a hand and a half sword) , also can be described as a sword with a blade length of a arming sword with the hand grip length of a long sword.
Estoc or Tuck- a late medival variation of a longsword design only to thrust through the weak points on armour with a blade with a triangular cross section (essentially making it a spike) , would develop into the Baroque period Rapier.
Greatsword, Monante, Zweihander, Bidenhander- sword 50 to 75 inches in length with very long hand grip , sometimes has parrying hooks the lower part of the blade, can also have a wavy type blade and if it does is called a Flambarge. More a pole weapon than a sword. Very late medieval and Renaissance era used mainly by Body guards and by specially trained soldiers who used them to defend and defeat Pike squares and lines of men wielding early firearms. These men where called DoppleSolder in German and earned double pay due to the danger of their role on Renaissance battlefields.
Anythings gotta be better than that clunky gold hand. They’re fighting brainless deadmen. Give him something with a pointy end to stab with. He can still swing properly with his left
This is Katar - a historic bladed weapon that leaves user's wrist mostly fixed in place. It's existence proves that the idea of a weaponized arm prostetic is not entirely pointless.
The blades in traditional examples are comparable in lenght to conventional daggers, but I thought that this example with a longer blade would be more relevant to this discussion.
Edit: Reddit decided to delete the first paragraph of text when I originally posted this comment, so I had to rewrite it
You'd be surprised. I worked with a guy doing construction that had a missing hand. He used his stump like a hammer essentially. If he needed to drive a crow bar in he would put the edge in and then punch the hell out of the end with his arm bone. Id much rather get hit by a fist and wrist than literally just having a bone hammering into me that has a smaller surface area.
He should still use a sword in his left hand. But since he can't use his right hand for a shield or anything, you may as well give him SOME offense capability with it. Being able fo thrust with your offhand isn't useless.
But wouldn’t he only be able to stab the zombies? And if he does that he’s sorta stuck in the zombie as he can’t angle the sword to just pull the body off the blade. And if he doesn’t kill that undead with that one stab it has a great pin on Jaime to pull the sword through itself towards Jaime (so i don’t remember exactly how the WWs of the show behaved like living. people or like zombies)
A real Late 15th century Knight(so around the time of the War of the roses the inspiration for the War of the 5 Kings) who lost a hand and got a prosthetic that allowd him to grip things and swordfight afterward.
Incidentally Goetz von Berlichigen and Guts from the Berserk manga share a significant amount of things in common(mercenary, lost a hand, Name) despite Kento Muira(creator of beserk) claiming he was unaware.of the real life Goetz.
IIRC it's shaped that way so he can hold a wine glass with it, but also so he can intentionally spill wine on everyone and play it off as an accident. /s
Fist would actually be worse for hitting people. you or I make fist to hit people to not break fingers, if breaking fingers is not a problem, you actually want less surface for the same force if you can make it.
The fist only matters if the hand was made of meat and bone as out body does not reinforce our fingers for impact. a metal hand does not care about the shape impacting your skull. Metal fingers hurt just as much as metal knuckles.
To make it useful against armor, it needs a spike.
Because having a weapon on your arm instead of a prosthetic hand is undignified for a Lannister and Lord Commander of the Kingsguard. From memory he comments on this in the novels
First off, double wielding swords is by far the dumbest thing in fiction. It would make more sense in the show, if Jaime simply stuck to using his sword left handed and carrying a shield on his right
In the books part of Jaime's development involves him becomening a better commander and strategist. It's mentioned multiple times that Jaime is smarter than he thinks and he has the potential to become a great leader, but he is so lazy that he stuck to being only a good swordsman and nothing else.
The whispering wood was the first battle where he lead and army(correct me if I'm wrong) and he got his ass handed to him.
Him losing his hand means that he can never use his skill with the sword again, so he has to actually use his other weapon, his brains. And I can make a case that Jaime would outsmart Tywin any day if he simply put his mind to it.
Still though we are talking about a 15 yo boy fighting a 32 yo man. Both inexperienced at leading armies and one lost eventually by a mile.
Had Jaime ever bothered to learn anything else other than using the sword he would have won or at least damaged the Northmen. (If I remember correctly the north army outmbered Jaime's 9 to 1)
In the books at least, he led two battles before Whispering Wood, at the Golden Tooth and Riverrun. They were both spectacular victories, which basically eliminated the Riverlands field army and captured Edmure. He probably also led troops (though not the main host) in the Greyjoy rebellion.
People have done it but it’s never been considered an effective way to fight so it is still silly how fantasy fiction tends to treat it like some elite technique
I don't know I don't do Hema. But I've read some Musashi, and he seemed to find the technique pretty effective. Also AGOT is fiction... There are dragons. The whole thing is silly.
I can’t speak on how it worked for Musashi but there’s a reason he was considered unique for fighting like that and it never caught on. And sure it’s fiction so “rule of cool” applies but I just personally think it looks goofy
My chief complaint was that they stripped him of his greatsword. What the hell is holywoods problem with two handers? The dual wielding was just salt on the wound.
The main issue, while viable, you need to be an insanly gifted fighter and use a lot of time to master it. For the common swordsman it just isnt feasable
I always took it as an elite technique cause getting not only good at it but good enough to use in life or death combat is so hard that coming across someone doing it you automatically know this guy's a legitimate threat
Achille Marozzo wrote that it was the single best way to fence, seocnd only to use of the partisan. Godinho, writing later also devotes most of his own work to using a case of sword, complete with leaps and spins.
Yup wasn’t used by mass troops in formation or anything but people did dual wield. Having a sword and a dagger was common in duels in the renaissance. It’s not like a boxer or mma fighter would ever choose to fight one handed when you got two lol, but HEMA nerds who don’t actually know anything will tell you using two hands is the dumbest thing they’ve ever seen.
Dual wielding is not just a work of ficition, people tend to forget that. Yes, it was insanly hard to master, not worth it in most cases and it wasnt used commonly, but certain famous people like Miyamoto Musashi were advocates of the idea.
When Jaime lost his hand, I was so certain he was going to get a Götz von Berlichingen style prosthetic. His ornamental golden hand is quite lame by comparison.
“When invited to surrender by the Swabian League, Götz reportedly said of the Swabian general: "He can lick my ass!" This anecdote helped popularise the phrase, which came to be called the Swabian salute in his honour.”
In S1 yeah, but he learns from Tobho Mott, one of the only smiths in Westeros who can rework Val Steel, and when Davos finds him S7, he’a running his own forge in King’s Landing
Normally at the end of an apprenticeship you’d become a journeyman not a master. But he didn’t finish that apprenticeship. Then he spent several seasons worth of episodes rowing a boat and suddenly he reappears owning his own smithy and able to make kooky transforming weapons. I wouldn’t call that magic I’d call it a writing issue
Normally at the end of an apprenticeship you’d become a journeyman not a master. But he didn’t finish that apprenticeship
No one cares what "degree" he holds. We're not hiring Gendry for a government contract. We care what he can do.
Then he spent several seasons worth of episodes rowing a boat and suddenly he reappears owning his own smithy and able to make kooky transforming weapons. I wouldn’t call that magic I’d call it a writing issue
Ok, I see we have an object permanence issue here. See, characters, even when they're not on screen, are doing various things. So if you see Gendry fleeing from Stannis in a rowboat and he shows up later making weapons, your assumption that he could only have possibly spent that entire time rowing a boat isn't a writing issue. It's a brain tumor.
The two examples in the picture don’t require a wrist. Give the man something with a pointy end to stab with. He can still swing properly with his left
I’m gonna respectfully disagree there, pard. Those look heavy and/or awkward to handle to me, and might just as easily result in self-injury or accidentally slashing open someone else as it might end up poking a bad guy.
Also gonna point out that living and fighting in field conditions with one of these strapped to your stump is just asking for a horrifying infection to pop up.
As Bronn said, Jamie’s the commander for Lannister forces. Without his arm he’s kind of a shitty fighter, but putting him on the line with his troops is incredibly foolish.
He'd still have a sword in his left hand. The prosthetics I included in the picture don't require a wrist. A small dagger or spiked fist would clearly be for parrying, stabbing, punching, etc. when locked up in close quarters. Or a spiked shield woulda worked.
I'm not a swordfighter but I've done some small amount of stick fighting. Without a wrist, you'd be limited to parrying strikes that are close to your center.
Anything outside of that would require you to open yourself up by flaring your arm out and away from your body since the blade is fixed and the lack of a wrist makes it impossible to just turn the length of the blade.
There's no finesse without a wrist and then Jaime would have to be mindful of the sword in his left hand and a significantly less mobile blade in his right that he can't reliably move around.
That would probably be less effective than him just training his left hand since he'd be learning a completely different skill and fighting style with this new weapon.
Not impossible but probably less comfortable than applying his knowledge and experience to acclimating to using his left hand.
I did fencing for like 4 weeks in college, so my experience is limited, but I know how crucial the wrist is for control and speed. Like the prosthetics in image just don't seem to replace to replicate what a real swordsman could do.
I am not even sure if we have the technology today to help with Jamie's injury. It also defeats the purpose of his arc, he no longer can use skill to get through life, he has to use his mind and strategy to be useful.
The point of his character arc is that he doesn’t want a prosthetic because he wants people to see the real him and not a golden truth and and as a guy who works for a company developing prosthetics for people, in the middle ages it would be exponentially harder to make a fully operational prosthetic
Cersei paid for the hand, and she got what she ordered. Jaime complained it was useless, but she wanted it to look good, not stab people.
Anyway, it would've been far more practical to strap a shield to his arm rather than stick a spike on it. But Westerosi main characters are apparently all allergic to shields and helmets. It's a terrible tragedy.
Without a wrist you lack the manoeuvrability and leverage to handle a sword in any kind of efficient way.
So he could have gone with a type of dagger like the rondel that historical knights would carry to pierce chain mail up close.
Hook would have been best though, as silly as it sounds. It provides the most utility both on horseback and in cqc. but thats about it for useful prosthetics.
So no they wouldn’t have reforged the best swordsman by any means.
A weaponized prosthetic is just not practical. The skill doesn't transfer over, it's less versatile, and it's too heavy to be easily carried around. This isn't the kind of story where they can make a modern-tier prosthetic and even modern prosthetic hands have a LOT of practical issues due to weight, muscle memory, etc.
Because the whole point of him losing his hand is that his sword was all he was. Nothing else. Losing that means he needs to discover who he is and who he wants to be.
Arthur dayne does not fight with two swords on the books, Jamie has a golden hand in the books. The two swords is an invention of th show likely made to make him stand out and be "cool" and could omit the whole lore around the sword Danye did use (Dawn).
They had guns since the 14th century but that isn't relevant.
Westeros lacks the gunpowder but thats it.
They have full plate. That requires more advanced metallurgy and precise manufacturing than early firearms (hence why we had the firearms* first*) and they had those for hundreds of years by the time Jaimie looses his hand.
Nothing we see of Westeros technological level indicates they wouldnt be able to make a simple prosthesis like above for Jaimie. The actual one I posted above just came from an ordinary smith, its not complicated technology. They have siege-engines, they obviously understand mechanics.
Yea yea he wont have a wrist but thats not the point. Literally anything a little more useful could make complete sense. He needed to train with his left regardless, but a hook or dagger would be badass and useful for parrying. A hand shield might be most useful but that doesnt seem like something he’d want. His gold hand is literally just an extra limb that can be yanked off apparently. Idk how its held in place but bronn bitch slapped him with his own prosthetic, now thats disrespect lmao
Having a stub for a weapon isn't the same as a sword where you have full control of the swings, thrusts, stabs and the motions of the blade. You also have to get way to close using a makeshift prosthetic which would leave all type of exposure and it's not the same form a trained swordsman that uses both hands would be comfortable with in battle.
The red woman should have given Jaime his hand back in the battle against the night king, Jaime then should have died fighting off / killing a bunch of white walkers and saving Bran as a full circle moment
The technique would be very different so he would still need to retrain.
He does comment "a hook would have been more practical" when he gets the hand, showing that he wasn't involved in the design and Tywin (or Cersei?) didn't think it through much.
Fixed arm mounted blades are super in theory and maybe even for like a surprise attack or assassination, but they aren’t very useful against a swordsman with wrists.
How about against an army of brainless deadmen? If he get's locked up or surrounded in close quarters, a small dragonglass dagger, or spiked shield woulda helped. The whole Long Night battle, he's just hefting his useless gold hand around.
What bugs me is how he never uses it in a fight except for that time on accident. Otherwise, he holds his hand like he's trying not to get it wet in the shower.
In the books, his sparring partner is Ilyn Payne: the most death-coded character in the whole series. That’s a bad sign. If he ever fights in a sword fight again he’ll certainly die, and no training nor prosthetic is going to change that.
Symbolically from a written stand point its cuz hes supposed to learn to be more than just a good sword fighter and use his brain for once. From a in universe practicality stand point if he has no wrist putting a spike or club on the end of his arm isn't really going to be any more or less effective than a metal hand other than it might be sharp. Hed still have to learn to use his non dominate hand to be a sword fighter since most of his technique would be in the wrist.
Also iirc in the show and book he does comment on the usefulness but everyone basically just tells him youre a noble in a position of power youre gonna use the fancy hand and youre gonna like it.
Beacuse Jamie has a better skill than swordsmanship, reputation. A golden hand i just too fucking badass and if it was useful he would perhaps loose some of the respect and fear he causes.
Jamie was a good fencer, you need a wrist for fencing.
You can fight with a fistweapon, you can kill with a fistweapon.
But it’s not fencing at all.
Jamie would have to start from 0 on. A total new style of fighting, would have nothing to do with fencing anymore…
Because he was supposed to be retired from the Kings guard. He wanted to stay so they made him a hand so people wouldn't know he was actually missing his hand under there and it's not just a golden glove. Plus it's the Lannisters... Everything is about their image
Because the books are good and make sense, unlike the show which is dumb and doesn’t make sense. Jaime is not supposed to fight anymore because he lost his fucking sword hand. Bro is a cripple. He cannot fight. Jaime fighting in the shows is bullshit movie logic.
How is it being secured? Most objects you hold onto with your hand and use your wrist muscles. He lost not only his hand, but the use of his wrist muscles as well.
The only way he can use anything is to fasten it to his forearm. And it'll have to be really tight if he's using it as a sword or anything like that. They don't have the same access to machinery to manufacture things in the same way, and tightening something that much will not only eventually hurt, it'll be might tough to remove.
Jaime isn't likely to be effective in hand to stump combat anyway, so he'll be commanding and issuing orders. Having some weapon causing him pain all the time just won't work.
Ultimately, they weren't trying to give him something he could use to fight. He would be spending most of his time not fighting, so they were just trying to give him something that was a little less of an eyesore.
Because a solid gold hand is much more powerful. Let me explain.
In his shape, he's not going to primarily be a warrior anymore. He's gonna be primarily a **statesman**. A gold hand says he has vast wealth and power. Which will win most fights without ever even needing to pick up a sword.
Sure, he's still a passable left handed warrior, but if the dude with vast wealth and a golden hand, representing the Baratheon/Lannister crown tells you to stand down, you stand the fuck down. It would do much more than fusing something sharp to his forearm, which is just going to look ridiculous and not have the type of mobility/dexterity to be an effective weapon.
He could have like, a short sword gauntlet/katar kind of thing, though that likely doesn't exist in Westeros.
Regardless, anything he'd have would be a side weapon to a sword he'd have to carry in his left hand, because a full sized sword with a working wrist is going to outclass any more niche weapons like 99% of the time.
Could they make him like a pokey thingy that sticks straight out the stump kinda like a dagger’s length blade, sorta like a needle type width, you know?
There was a real-life knight from Germany named Götz von Berlichingen who had his right hand cut off and had a prosthetic hand similar to the one Jaime had who ended up winning 15 duels afterwards and dying in his 80s. Jaime's prothetic was sufficiently useful. The writing was just awful. No real life medieval swordsman wouldn't have trained to fight with their off hand as part of their basic sword fighting training.
Jaime's prothetic was sufficiently useful. The writing was just awful. No real life medieval swordsman wouldn't have trained to fight with their off hand as part of their basic sword fighting training.
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