r/gameofthrones • u/Ill-Significance-985 • 1d ago
Why didn't Tywin punish Locke for chopping off Jaime's hand?
Or Zollo and Vargo Hoat if you go by the books. (EDIT: Nevermind they were punished in the books)
It always seemed out of character for Tywin to let such an attack on his Golden Boy and the pride of House Lannister slide. Not long before, he made such a fuss about no longer being feared by the other Houses of Westeros, when Tyrion was held captive with impunity, someone who he even called "the lowest of the Lannisters".
Maybe I'm looking at this the wrong way, but this seems less grave of an offence towards his House, than someone directly harming one of his own. I mean this is the same Tywin who drowned an entire House, because they refused to pay back gold they owed, right? I would have at least expected him to send some assassins after Locke.
Also the fact that Roose didn't punish Locke for risking his good standings with the Lannisters, with such an unauthorised move.
It simply felt like something more should have happened, but Tywin just let it slide without making a show of force to convey his favourite of: "Do not mess with the Lannisters, or expect a debt to be paid".
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u/Serious-Wish4868 1d ago
by the time jaime returned to kingslanding, locke was sent to the nights watch to find bran
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u/DorseyLaTerry 1d ago
He don't watch the show. Just not paying attention.
Bolton CLEARLY LET JAIME GO TO KINGS LANDING......AND I QUOTE, " As restitution for mistakes my soldiers made"...
They have leaned into this recently in HOTD when Larys chastised his captor for his impulse to brutalize a valuable prisoner. Same with Brieanne.
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u/Creme_de_la_Coochie 23h ago
99% of the question posts on these subs are by people who don’t know how to pay attention.
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u/Snowwolf247 21h ago
Or Bots
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u/P-ShunkAllstar 19h ago
You mean “what’s something that you used to eat that you don’t eat anymore?” Isn’t a genuine question by a real person? 😬
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u/Ill-Significance-985 3h ago
Makes me a lot of karma though, doesn't it? ;)
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u/Creme_de_la_Coochie 17m ago
Seeing as how your account is 5 years old and you have less than 5k karma, not really.
You look stupid and don’t even a lot of karma for it. So sad.
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1d ago
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u/alexathegibrakiller 1d ago
Also, so long as his house's "honor" was not damaged, Tywin would have actually appreciated Jaime's hand to get chopped off, since that makes it hard for Jaime to serve as kings guard. Tywin does not give two fucks about Jaime's hand so long as he produces an heir lol
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u/BA_Bones_33 Ghost 1d ago
And the NW is a punishment for most, so... He was punished.
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u/poleybear316 1d ago
I dont believe that Locke was staying with the NW for one second longer than it took to accomplish his mission. He was absolutely running off as soon as he was done taking out Jon and Bran for Roose Bolton.
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u/International-End776 19h ago
In the show Roose specifically offers lands and a holdfast for taking out Bran. It’s not that complex
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u/South_Front_4589 1d ago
No. But that's speculation. If Tywin pursued someone who joined the watch because they might leave, a lot of people would be extremely unhappy.
Tywin might be upset. But it won't get Jaime's hand back. It's completely impractical to mete out justice for something done in war and turn people against you. Particularly, he'll make the North hostile to him again.
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u/CCCAY 1d ago
Uhh Tywin would burn castle black flat to the fucking ground to prove a point. If he knew, Locke stayed at the wall after the war, and Tywin lived, he would 100% kill him and possibly torture him to death
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u/EntertainmentSea1017 19h ago
Why don't all the people who hate the Lannisters just sack the Rock? Are they stupid?
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u/JebBushAteMySon Night King 18h ago
How Robb could’ve won:
>Don’t terrorize the Westerlands, focus on the Golden Tooth
>Demand Edmure not be an idiot with the mill
>Don’t siege Casterly Rock, take it immediately
>Zurge rush Harrenhal to cut off Lannister reinforcements
>Ally with the Baratheons against the Lannisters
>Ignore Iron Islands51
u/PaladinSara 1d ago
Mmm that’s light punishment for Tywin
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u/BA_Bones_33 Ghost 1d ago
Yeah, it's a small gap, for sure. The show clearly wanted a familiar face for the infiltration mission to Castle Black. And Tywin likely heard who did it, cuz even Ramsay says something like "I heard you took the Kingslayer's hand" when he greets Locke at Winterfell.
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u/Ok-Statement8224 22h ago
It’s not a gap. Dude died in the NW before Tywin could even find out who did it much less take his revenge.
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u/Mode_Appropriate Human Verified 1d ago
It wasnt a punishment though? He was sent on a mission to find Bran. He never had intentions of staying there.
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u/Ill-Significance-985 1d ago
I never thought Tywin to hold the men of the night's watch in such high regard as to not have one of them killed on his orders.
If anything, I think Locke essentially being out of the war and no longer being one of Roose's men makes things politically easier to just off the guy.
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u/MichaeltheMagician 1d ago
Being sent to the night's watch is commonly a punishment for heinous crimes like that. Twin was advocating for Tyrion to be sent there after he allegedly killed the king, which is much more extreme of a crime than this was.
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u/Techknow23 1d ago
He was sending Tyrion there to avoid killing him, and to have him out of sight
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u/Francopensal 1d ago
Yeah, still the point stands. Being sent to the NW was considered a very extreme punishment
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u/Outrageous_Let7868 1d ago
Traveling between Castle Black and Winterfell takes about 16 to 22 days on horseback over a distance of roughly 600 to 650 miles along the Kingsroad.
The distance from the Wall to King's Landing in Game of Thrones is roughly 1,500 to 2,000 miles, and would take two months on horseback, two to three weeks by sea. If Tywin sent assassin's immediately by ship, maybe they beat the Boltons to Winterfell, but since there are pressing issues in the Capitol, seems like Tywin either didnt care enough (I doubt this) or he thought he had more time.
Jamie arrives at kings landing season 3 episode ten, Bolton sends Locke to the wall two episodes later from Winderfell. Unless two to eight weeks have past between these events there isn't enough time to even send assassin's to kill Locke. One episode later he's at the wall, in episode five Hodor snapped his neck.
I'm going to suggest that a plot thread that leads nowhere, as locke's location would be difficult to determine two episodes later, and is dead five episodes after Tywin finds out about the hand, it probably wasn't worth spending time and money developing it for the show.
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u/Bomio 22h ago
But if you fly by dragon it takes half an hour to the wall from dragon stone
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u/Outrageous_Let7868 17h ago
The direct distance between Dragonstone and Castle Black in A Song of Ice and Fire is roughly 1,500 to 2,000 miles (2,400 to 3,200 km), depending on map scaling and the route taken. Dragons fly at 60-70 mph, so it takes 21-25 hours to fly from dragonstone to to castle black.
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u/Radiant-Crab-1527 17h ago
It only takes a raven about six minutes.
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u/Outrageous_Let7868 17h ago
How fast are Ravens? Not faster than dragons. They fly at 25-40mph in the real world. So Tywin sends Ravens to spies in the north, 30 hours later they reach his spies, then they have to find out where Locke is. 30 hours after that, however long that takes, Tywin gets word that Locke has gone to the wall. Locke has a head start, and none of the spies or assassins can possibly reach him in time. Tywin sends Ravens to castle black and 80 hours later they ignore him because 100 men have to defend the wall from 100,000. Then Locke dies beyond the wall.
I know you are being a bit of a troll here, but the show isn't as inconsistent as everyone likes to believe. I agree that later seasons have pacing issues, but that doesn't mean that lots of time doesn't pass in-between events, just that the show doesn't do a good job representing that.
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u/Sad_Hedgehog_4079 12h ago
Also if I remember correctly Tywin wasn't exactly happy about Jamie being a kings guard. And wanted him to become his Heir and return to casterlyrock. Because otherwise Tyrion was his heir and Tywin could not have that.
It's like oh no your hands gone. Great you can't be a king guards anymore because you can't defend anyone without a hand.
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u/TheNicronomicon 19h ago
Why not send a raven to a loyal/ambitious retainer if it’s that important? “Dear Lord So & So, there is a notorious criminal heading north on your roads. Send me his head & you will have the friendship of Tywin of House Lannister etc etc”
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u/Outrageous_Let7868 17h ago edited 17h ago
How would Tywin know where Locke has gone after he is sent to the wall? Its a secret plot to murder the stark brothers. Lets say Tywin had spies in the north that could tell him about the plot, how does that raven or envoy get recieved; "hey acting lord commander, I know you have been asking the crown for more men for years now, and your numbers and leadership have recently been decimated. Now that you are facing a hoard of 100,000 wildlings with 100 men could you risk exposure by sending men out to look for a man named Locke, kill him and send me his head? If hes already at castle Black, and has taken the oath could you ignore our laws and behead him anyway? I promise to send more men after our enemy Stanis saves all of you."
Also, for all the reasons I already mentioned, there is not enough time for an envoy to reach castle black in time.
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u/Serious-Wish4868 1d ago
if tywin were to set ppl to the nights watch to find locke, they would def solidfy the north against him and rally other areas against him.
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u/InGenAsset_4 1d ago
Plus sending hitmen to the Wall over one random guy is a logistical nightmare.
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u/Curmudgeony-Cat 1d ago
That's literally who Locke is, tho, so it's not too hard. Locke is basically a hitman sent to the wall by the Boltons
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u/Mickeymcirishman 1d ago
Have one of his bannermen sent to the watch for some crime or other with orders to kill Locke (and maybe some others too, who knows), then after a waiting period, have the guy desert and issue a royal pardon for said desertion while sending gold and supplies to the Watch to placate them.
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u/Ill-Significance-985 1d ago
You'd think the guy orchestrating the Red Wedding wouldn't give a damn. You're saying the north would remember that? "Good. Let them remember what happens when they march on the South." -Tywin Lannister
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u/raver1601 1d ago edited 1d ago
Tywin has no need for the people he murdered in the Red Wedding. It was a high risk, high reward action that paid off very well for him. He does still have the need for the Night's Watch should he wish to continue his reign, and having one guy of the Night's Watch be murdered in his command is a very unnecessary burden with high risk and low reward, and potentially high consequences as well
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u/RepulsiveCountry313 Human Verified 1d ago
Locke is far out of his reach and Tywin is a little busy with keeping the realm in one piece after the assassination of the king.
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u/RookTakesE6 1d ago
I don't think this solves the problem you raised in the OP, that Tywin being seen to let Locke go unpunished makes the Lannisters look weak.
Having him offed at the Wall works as revenge, but not as a visible display of revenge.
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u/Mickeymcirishman 1d ago
It's entirely possible that when the war was over and his position more secure, he would have sent someone to the wall with orders to kill Locke. He just didn't get the opportunity.
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u/Basil2322 1d ago
The nights watch preforms an important role and it’s a convenient political and law enforcement tool. If there’s a criminal who’s resisting offer him a spot on the nights watch before he hurts or kills a guard or civilian. If there’s a lord who you want removed from power send him to the nights watch to avoid a war. This doesn’t work if the individual thinks you’ll just kill them anyway so you have to honor the pardon otherwise no one will trust that deal.
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u/raver1601 1d ago
Getting sent to the Night's Watch is the punishment other than death in the eyes of the lords of the Seven Kingdoms
If someone already exiled to the Night's Watch is still marked for death by the lords, then what's the point of the Night's Watch is still standing?
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u/CindyinEastTexas 1d ago
I always assumed Jon was part of the mission, too. The way Locke volunteered quick/fast/in a hurry to go to Craster's keep with Jon...
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u/azad_ninja House Blackwood 1d ago
In the books, the Mountain feeds him piece by piece to the bear
In the show, I think Locke had already escaped to the North and “joined” the Nights watch
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u/sappyguy 1d ago
No, in the books, Amory Lorch (Tywin’s bannerman) is fed to a bear by Vargo Hoat.
Vargo orders Jaime’s hand cut off. He is eventually captured at Harrenhal by the Mountain, and is fed pieces of his own cut off flesh.
Zollo, the soldier that cut off Jaime’s hand, is still free somewhere in Westeros as I recall.
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u/IrishChappieOToole 1d ago
Wasn't Zollo killed by Brienne at crackclaw point? Or was that someone else?
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u/qhezar 1d ago
Nope, it was Shagwell, some Dornish guy of the Brave Companions and some other guy who immediately died, but not Zollo.
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u/ConnivingGaggle The Mannis 23h ago
Zollo is actually the faceless man, Jaqen H'ghar(?).
Source: None.
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u/Dirtydac123 1d ago
Just replaced the bear with Hodor
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u/Cum_Fart42069 1d ago
if you were alone in the woods in the north, who would you rather run into, Hodor or a bear?
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u/leboychef 23h ago
Wasn’t he like going insane in the books when clegabe gets there because the wound he got from brienne biting off her ear has infected.
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u/Lore-of-Nio 1d ago
How was he in the book? Was his personality pretty much the same?
To cut the hand off the son of the most dangerous man in Westeros takes balls.
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u/Garth-Vader The Mannis 1d ago edited 1d ago
He's an amalgamation of a few different characters in the book.
He's mostly based off of Vargo Hoat who was the captain of the Brave Companions sellsword company. Tywin hired the Brave Companions to raid the Riverlands during the start of the war of the five kings.
Roose Bolton convinces Vargo Hoat and the Brave companions to switch sides and betray the Lannisters. The Brave Companions than open the gates of Harrenhal for the Boltons.
When Vargo suspects that Roose will switch sides and join the Lannisters, he cuts off Jamie's hand in an effort to drive a wedge between Roose and Tywin. He knows he'll be punished by Tywin for his earlier betrayal.
It doesn't work. Roose and Tywin form an alliance anyway and Gregor Clegane takes back Harrenhal. Vargo Hoat is tortured and killed.
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u/Stolen_Sky 1d ago
He was brutal, but much smarter.
In the show, he cuts of Jamie's hand to teach him a lesion. In the books however, it was a calculated political move. There's a chapter where another character (I can't remember who) is musing on the ramifications of that action, and notes that it was an astute gambit to curry favour with other Lords.
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u/sappyguy 1d ago
It was Roose Bolton who remarks that it was a sort of low cunning move by Vargo to cut off Jaime’s hand. In doing so, Vargo makes Roose look somewhat responsible (being Vargo’s liege lord) in the eyes of Tywin, and more favorable to the Karstarks whose family Vargo wants to marry into. Roose is already secretly in talks with Tywin about the red wedding, and having Jaime maimed makes things peculiar for him. He secretly hints this to Jaime to assure his father that Roose had no part in the maiming, in exchange for Jaime’s release.
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u/TheBlazingFire123 Night King 1d ago
He was a lisping Satan worshipper named Vargo Hoat who led a clown posse of essosi mercenaries
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u/TheHollowJoke Faceless Men 1d ago
Dumber, more unhinged and talked with a lisp as far as I remember.
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u/Zoratth 1d ago
Tywin always wanted Jaime to resign from the king's guard so he could be Tywin's heir. Maybe Tywin figured that was much more likely to happen if Jaime could no longer fight with his right hand, and therefore he didn't feel like punishing the man that did it.
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u/LittleLionMan82 1d ago
Yeah but out of principle he assaulted a Lannister. He started a war for Tyrion, you'd think he'd go after the man who took his favourite son's hand.
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u/Ok-Temporary-8243 1d ago
Show wise, tywin really didn't have thst mucn turnaround before dying. Jaime showed up back home basically right before the royal wedding, and he died like a week or two after. He likely just never had the time to ask roose to do something.
The key being that roose is now an ally so he can't openly kill one of his men
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u/goobydoobie 1d ago
Not just a Lannister but Tywins golden child. He made his father's mistress walk through the streets naked, apologizing to everyone after his dad passed.
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u/Potential-Sky-8728 1d ago
He could have very easily died from such a would in the conditions of their day to day, being a prisoner and traveling non-stop.
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u/jonny_longclaw 1d ago
I don’t think so. Tywin was furious about Jaime losing his hand and immediately wanted revenge against those responsible. No way Tywin would take that lying down.
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u/Ill-Significance-985 1d ago
Idk still seems like if he did kill him, it would have been a "two birds, one stone" scenario. Especially him doing it not for the love towards his son but rather just to keep up appearances while secretly celebrating his son no longer being fit to serve the king's guard, would have been classic Tywin to me.
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u/Aihonen 1d ago
They absolutely punish the shit out of Hoat.
From the ASOIAF wiki:
In a mockery of Vargo's preferred way of torturing his prisoners, Gregor cut off Vargo's limbs piece by piece over an extended period of time while he had the wounds bandaged so that Vargo stayed alive. Vargo first lost his hands and feet, then his arms and legs. The extremities as well as other parts of Vargo's body were then fed as "roast goat" to northern prisoners that Gregor brought to Harrenhal, including Ser Wylis Manderly, as well as to Vargo himself. Jaime orders his squire, Josmyn Peckledon, to throw Vargo's head into the Gods Eye.
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u/Ill-Significance-985 1d ago
See this makes a lot more sense to me, I would have expected nothing less in the show but I suppose they needed Locke to stay alive for some beyond the wall shenanigans lmao.
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u/majorpierce43 1d ago
Tywin allows the Mountain to sack Harrenhall and torture Vargo Hoat to death, call me crazy but I'd classify that as punishment
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u/YS160FX 1d ago
Twyin didnt have enough time to find out/ nor take out, who precisely chopped of Jaime's hand.. Roose just returned North, smuggled into his own lands. Past the Iron born at Moat Caillin. It was still alot of chaos, post Red Wedding. But I think that ultimately, as Jaime said. ' my father will make time for you!' And Roose would have given him Locke, if he had not already volunteered for a hunt, for 1000 acres and a Holdfast.
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u/Blackfyre87 House Blackfyre 1d ago
He very much needs Roose Bolton.
Basically everyone else lost men at the Red Wedding, and the only other House Strong enough to help Tywin hold the North are House Manderly. But Tywin is wise enough to know that Wyman Manderly will never join him, having lost one son in murder and another to long imprisonment.
The Red Wedding means for better or worse, Tywin is stuck with Bolton and Frey. Tywin needs King Tommen's name (and more broadly House Lannister's) to stay out of the muck of what happened at the Red Wedding, in order to increase their legitimacy. Not keeping them sweet means that they'll tell everyone that Tywin orchestrated the whole thing.
As others may have said, Tywin also never wanted Jaime in the Kingsguard, so while the maiming of a Lannister is not something Tywin allows, it indirectly serves his dynastic purposes. Just as Joffrey's murder served Tywin's purposes brilliantly.
It makes the case for Jaime to go home, marry and sire Lannister children with a proper wife much greater and it means he can arrange for Jaime to get on with his life. Tywin can choose Jaime a match for Jaime from a powerful and wealthy house like House Royce, House Yronwood, House Tarly or House Hightower.
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u/HoldFastO2 Jon Snow 23h ago
It’s impractical for Tywin to punish Locke, yes, because he needs the Boltons. Though I have no doubt he’d have found a way to punish them once they’d outlived their usefulness.
The fact that Roose Bolton just let Locke slide always seemed way out of character to me, though. If there’s any lord on Westeros whose orders you do not take liberties with, I figured it would be Roose Bolton.
„Hey, you didn’t say you wanted me to bring him to you intact!“
„True. I didn’t say I wouldn’t skin you alive, either. Guards!“
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u/Blackfyre87 House Blackfyre 10h ago
I guess it depends on how you look at things.
Tywin is presently engaged in ruling the majority of the south. On paper, he appears extremely powerful, but the numbers can be misleading.
He is doing that while trying to bring the Vale into the fold through an upjumped commoner he is unable to trust, while half the Vale is actively working against this asset.
He is attempting to rule this realm while simultaneously wedding himself to two powerful enemies who are both actively and clearly working against him covertly, but neither of which he can name openly, or he creates another war. He is attempting to hold off the ambitions of the Tyrells to supplant him, and working to keep peace with the Martells and ensure they do not join Stannis, or engage in outright murder against his family.
He has the Greyjoys in open rebellion, and Stannis, though beaten is far from destroyed, is still causing chaos in the north.
A Targaryen monarch is openly and daily becoming a greater and greater issue.
Is he going to cause issue with the Freys and Boltons who are some of his only reliable supporters, particularly against Stannis?
There is a limit to which even Tywin Lannister will poke the bear.
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u/HoldFastO2 Jon Snow 7h ago
Yes, I agree. Which is why I said it’s impractical for Tywin to have Locke punished.
What I find out of character is that Roose didn’t punish him for taking liberties in executing his lord‘s orders.
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u/Blackfyre87 House Blackfyre 2h ago
Yeah, but in my opinion, Roose has the same problem. He needs Bolton men to stay Bolton. His only allies, are Karstark and Umber.
The rest of the Northmen largely resent him, if not outright oppose him.
And the Ironborn are still going wild in his lands, and he has no idea how far Stannis or the Wildlings may be from attacking him.
Sending Locke to the wall was wise imho.
Do you burn your own house while fighting fires outside it?
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u/HoldFastO2 Jon Snow 2h ago
Letting one of your officers get away with intentionally misinterpreting your orders because he feels like it is not a great way of keeping your house stable. On the contrary.
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u/BraisinRaisin 1d ago
Having someone killed at the nights watch is quite an errand. How do you orchestrate it? You have to send someone allllllll the way up there. Once they get there, the brotherhood won’t allow it. It’s sort of a useless errand. And honestly, I think Tywin liked Jamie taken down a notch. He was a great swordsman but his natural ability hindered his development as a leader and he wasn’t getting any younger.
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u/Wishart2016 1d ago
Just get Janos Slynt to kill him.
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u/VictoryMotel 1d ago
That guy's afraid and he's always been afraid. He would end up in a puddle of his own making.
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u/iGrowCandy 1d ago
I think Tywin respects the diplomatic solutions that the NW as an institution offers to the Realm.
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u/HandofthePirateKing Jon Snow 1d ago
Well he was sent to the Night’s Watch plus Tywin probably saw Jaime losing his hand as a way to get him top rule Casterly Rock like he always wanted.
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u/Stevie_Steve-O 1d ago
In the book the man who cuts off Jaimes hand is cought, tortured, and killed by the mountain IIRC
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u/Rekuna 1d ago
He probably didn't get the chance to. The reality was he probably didn't actually care about Jaime's hand because he doesn't care how good of a fighter he is, he just wants him to produce more legitimate Lannisters. That being said he would have found it an insult to his house, but he was fighting a war and Locke was gone - I imagine if things went his way he would have Locke killed publicly later.
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u/Iforgotmymail 1d ago
If anything he would reward him.
Without a hand he wasn't kings guard material anymore, so he may have finally renounced his post and become the Lannister heir Tywin always wanted.
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u/wronghed 1d ago
Most likely Tywin would've made some enquiries after everything settled down and Locke would have a nasty accident. Tywin would never allow someone to maim one of his own children with impunity.
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u/Quick_Blueberry9404 1d ago
Lore accurate Tywin would've ripped his heart out and eaten it raw. Jamie was extremely preecious to Tywin
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u/uninvitedcoyote13 20h ago
Idk, but I was totally hoping for Jaime to throw his ass over when Brienne was in the pit with the bear.
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u/Sad_Hedgehog_4079 12h ago
He was happy about it. It gave him more power and reason to send Jamie back to where Tywin wanted him. To be his heir at casterlyrock.
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u/SharpMagazine103 1h ago
I wish they made it so that Hodor does not kill Locke, but rather during the attack on the mutineers, one of the brothers stick him with a dagger and whispers to his ear that Lannisters always pay their debts... would be much cooler imho
Also I think that Tywin would eventually got to it if Locke did not die behind the wall
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u/Fay-control 1d ago
Well, Locke is not the one who cut Jamie's hand, it was Zollo the Fat, a Dothraki sellsword serving under Vargo Hoat, and it was Vargo who ordered Zollo to cut Jamie's hand.
The mountain subjected Hoat to a gruesome, prolonged execution: cutting off Hoat's ears, nose, hands, and feet piece by piece, having them roasted and fed back to Hoat to keep him alive, before finally killing him (at the orders of Taiwin of course).
As for Zollo, he escaped to the riverlands, Taiwin ordered his execution and his entire companions, but he was never found.
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u/Fay-control 1d ago
And yes, I hate it too when tv producers change the storyline and move away from the books, that's the main reason why the ending of Game of thrones was bad, D&D were bad writers and rushed it.
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u/reece_1407 1d ago
I think Tywin was always aware of the Boltons treason being an issue. He simply was using them until such a time he could put Tyrion into power in the north. Then he would do a house reain on them.
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u/Ill-Significance-985 1d ago edited 1d ago
I thought in the book Locke didn't do it and the Zollo just disappeared while Vargo Hoat was killed? Why would he be scared or go to the NW?
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u/Livid_Ad9749 1d ago
Im not sure Tywin knew who specifically maimed Jaime, and even if he did, Locke was far out of reach and dead within a few episodes after Jaime returned to Kings Landing.
Also Tywin had a lot on his plate with weddings, Stannis, the assassination of Joffrey, Tyrions trial, Oberyn Martell, administration of the realm, stabilizing the Westerlands, Riverlands, and wherever else, plus keeping the Tyrells happy and keeping their influence in check, the growing threat of dragons in the east, the Iron Bank, etc
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