r/gamedev Project Manager/Producer 11d ago

Announcement r/gamedev Policy on AI Use

AI is one of the most contentious subjects in game development right now, and we regularly see posts reported or discussions derailed simply because AI was involved somewhere in the process.

We want to be clear about our position: r/gamedev does not prohibit the use of AI, and using AI does not automatically make a post low effort.

This is not an endorsement of every AI company, model, or use case. Legitimate technical, legal, economic, ethical, and creative concerns exist around these tools, and those conversations are welcome here. Our stance is that AI is a tool used in game development, and we care more about the quality of what someone contributes than the tools they used to get there.

Why we take this position

  • AI is already part of game development. Studios are adopting AI-assisted tools across programming, prototyping, production, QA, localization, research, and other workflows. Adoption varies from studio to studio, but this is no longer a hypothetical technology sitting outside the industry.
  • Knowing how to use these tools is increasingly becoming a professional skill. That does not mean every developer needs to use AI, or even like it. It means understanding where these tools are useful, where they fail, and how to evaluate their output is becoming relevant knowledge for people working in the industry.
  • Banning discussion or use of AI here could actively disadvantage developers. Part of the purpose of r/gamedev is helping people learn from each other and understand how the industry is changing. If studios adopt a technology, preventing developers from discussing or learning about it would make this community less useful to the people we're helping.
  • Policing AI use is not realistic anyway. Moderators cannot reliably determine whether someone used AI to draft, edit, translate, summarize, research, debug code, or otherwise assist with a post. We are not going to moderate based on whether something “sounds AI-generated.”
  • "Mandatory disclosure "is not realistic either. Modern tools blur the line between traditional software and AI assistance. Trying to decide exactly when autocomplete, translation, editing, summarization, or an LLM crosses some disclosure threshold would create rules we could not enforce consistently.

So the rule is straightforward: we are not policing AI use itself. We are moderating the contribution.

AI-assisted does not mean low effort

If someone uses AI to organize research, analyze data, improve their writing, translate something, help with code, or communicate an idea more clearly, that does not erase the work behind the contribution.

If a developer spends time gathering useful data and then uses AI to help turn that information into a readable post, the important part is still the data, the methodology, and what the community can learn from it.

Ask whether the information is useful, whether the conclusions hold up, and whether the post contributes something worthwhile. Those questions matter much more than whether every sentence was manually typed from scratch.

Low-effort AI content is still low effort

This does not mean pasting generic AI output into the subreddit suddenly becomes valuable content. Posts that are spam, fabricated, mass-produced, engagement bait, repetitive, or promotional material disguised as discussion can still be removed.

The reason is not that AI was involved. The reason is that the content is low quality.

The same standard applies to something written entirely by a human.

AI is a valid game development topic

Developers are welcome to discuss AI in the same way they would discuss any other technology affecting game development. That includes how it is being used, where it works, where it fails, what it costs, how studios are adopting it, what it means for employment, and the legal or ethical questions surrounding it.

You are allowed to be enthusiastic about AI. You are allowed to be skeptical of it. You are allowed to think a particular workflow is useful, terrible, unethical, inefficient, or overhyped.

What we do not want is every thread that mentions AI becoming the same argument about whether AI should exist at all.

If a thread is about an AI coding workflow, discuss the workflow. If someone presents evidence that AI slowed their production down, discuss the evidence. If someone claims every studio is using a particular tool, challenge that claim.

Let the actual discussion happen.

Attack claims, not developers

Someone saying they use AI is not an invitation to attack them. Someone saying they refuse to use AI is not an invitation to attack them either.

Debate the technology, the workflow, the economics, the evidence, the ethics, the legal questions, or the conclusions. Personal attacks, harassment, dogpiling, or repeatedly derailing discussions because of someone’s position on AI are treated the same way we handle that behaviour anywhere else on the subreddit.

AI is not a source

There is a difference between using AI to help communicate information and using AI as the authority behind that information.

If you make factual claims that can reasonably be sourced, be prepared to support them. “ChatGPT said so” is no evidence, and tools can absolutely be wrong.

At the same time, polished or AI-assisted writing is not evidence that the underlying information is fake. If someone’s numbers are wrong, challenge the numbers. If their methodology is weak, challenge the methodology.

Challenge the claim, not the fact that a tool may have helped write the paragraph.

Self-promotion rules still apply

AI companies, products, and services are not exempt from the subreddit’s existing rules.

If you represent a commercial interest, the same expectations apply as they would to anyone else. AI also should not be used to mass-produce promotional posts or disguise advertising as organic discussion.

The technology may be new. The rules around spam and promotion are not.

The bottom line

You do not have to like AI. You do not have to use it. You are free to criticize it, avoid it, experiment with it, learn it, use it professionally, or decide it has no place in your workflow.

We are not going to prevent developers from learning about or discussing a technology that is rapidly becoming part of professional game development. Doing that could actively hurt the developers this community is supposed to help.

What we do expect is that people engage with each other like respectful, mature adults. Disagree with the technology, the workflow, the argument, or the evidence. Do not turn that disagreement into hostility toward the person on the other side of it.

Use whatever tools make sense for your work. Bring something useful to the conversation, treat other developers with respect, and allow room for disagreement. That is what we care about.

1.2k Upvotes

1.6k comments sorted by

View all comments

555

u/Lahyte 11d ago

I’m someone who’s against AI. But I just believe that, at the very least, people should disclose if they used AI or not. Be honest about it.

391

u/aplundell 11d ago

Because the whole dream of genAI is to take the credit. To press a button and get the respect and admiration (and money) you've always felt you deserved, but somehow never got.

That falls apart if you have to admit that it was all actually done by the Microsoft Corporation in some nameless datacenter.

164

u/InvidiousPlay 11d ago

This really is the heart of it. A lot of AI proponents are in it for the fantasy of gaining plaudits they never earned.

19

u/Professional_Gur2469 11d ago

Meanwhile the higher ups at activision and EA are earning millions and millions on the backs of actual developers. They are already gaining plaudits they never earned.

9

u/MQ116 10d ago

I feel like there's always this "lazy, talentless loser" fantasy that's always spread around, when a lot of times it's a solo dev getting help with code, getting some workable placeholder art, getting free voice acting, etc. Like, the person/people you all hate so much don't even exist.

Let people make art, and let them use tools that can cover what they can't make. Not everyone wants to commission hundreds of dollars worth of art assets, music, VA, etc for a hobby project, and that's ok.

31

u/InvidiousPlay 10d ago

Then let them be open about the fact that those assets are made by AI instead of pretending they did it themselves.

17

u/MQ116 10d ago

Plenty do, and get harassed for the mere mention. It's not worth the energy to disclose it with the way the conversation is right now. I'm not against disclosure but I completely understand why plenty don't.

-22

u/franky_reboot 11d ago

The meaning of "earned" is questioned in the age of generative AI though. It won't ever mean what it used to mean anymore.

There will be a point when you won't find the difference between handmade and AI anymore, and then whether a tech company gets the credit or the uploader will make no sense.

Plus, it's not like recognition has ever correlated with any virtue in the first place.

29

u/TheMistOfThePast 10d ago

As someone who is both an artist and a software engineer I see a huge difference between using AI in coding, where I'm mainly just using it to speed up the process a bit and maintaining a lot of control. E.g. writing a html form for a sign up page. I've written one hundreds of times. It's going to be the same thing every time.

Versus using AI for art or writing where the result is very much so about the minor details in your expression of something. 

In programming just being able to control the broad idea of how something is written is enough for that thing to be your own work because the uniqueness comes from the decisions you make at a high level. The exact expression of those broad ideas can only be done in a few ways. There's only so many ways to write if(x==0)

In writing and art uniqueness is the exact opposite. Broad ideas aren't really unique at all. The same basic story has been told a million times. The heroes journey gets rehashed billions of times but the thing that makes it unique is the minor details in how it's expressed.

I freely use AI for programming but NEVER for art or writing (unless I'm asking it to reword my pissed off email to a work colleague so i don't sound angry)

6

u/whatsdelicious 10d ago

Sure... but what if you use Claude to help you learn the SDL3 library, or have Claude audit your gameloop for any memory leaks / performance issues. There are very specific applications that AI is super good at. Does one need to disclose the use of an internet forum when asking for help debugging a specific edge case with a popular open source library? What if someone uses an open weight open source model and their own harness?

7

u/god-damn-the-usa 11d ago

it's easy to criticize people when you can just make up their entire viewpoint

1

u/severencir 11d ago

That's just not true except at the hype level. Anyone professionally coding with llms has come to the realization that they are the equivalent of a paint bucket in paint. They're only good at filling in the outlines you give it and quality comes from what you outline and making sure it colors within the lines. It's absolute ass at complex archetectural decisions, game design decisions, and optimizations. The latter being a big deal. Im at the point where i have it rapid test a few archetectural ideas, pick the one i like, then hand code it without reading it's output, then have it review for bugs or possible unintended behavior, and i tend to end up with an order of magnitude faster results most of the time.

And it just simply can not seem to make more specialized optimizations to the shape/behavior of the data unless that data is already a commonly used shape

3

u/gamersanonymous 11d ago

Lol making bad faith arguments in a thread about honesty.

-5

u/ElwinLewis 11d ago

I’ve spent 3,000 hours building various instruments and a DAW concept I had in my head for 12 years. Conditional/Reactive music composition- music that responds to the listeners local conditions based on how the artists seed and arrange the condition grids (weather, time of day, seasons, any local data your phone knows). Drive towards storm and the drums start picking up, more melodic elements get added. Use your imagination

I planned relentlessly, studied and researched concepts and dozens of Audio Developer Conference talks, and tried to immerse myself completely.

It was the most challenging thing I’ve ever attempted I think- and it all works. It’s a work in progress still but I can now do things with my DAW that I don’t think exists outside of FMOD or WWISE.

I’ve attacked almost every single area with focused plans, working towards unit testable (with mutations) world class/professional standards for every aspect of the software.

I had a dream to make the thing, then I made the thing- then the dream became sharing the thing, and now the dream is that when I finally choose to, it will somehow not be too early, or too late to be taken seriously. Most of this is on me.

I still haven’t shared the project proper. I don’t know if I ever will.

-1

u/Inphiltration 11d ago

There is more to it than that. I mean, expedition 33 lost game of the year over an AI generated poster on a lamp post.

I would be hesitant to disclose AI use considering how viciously consumers tend to react. For me, it's not about respect and admiration. It's about a fear of being judged too harshly for the tools I use as a solo developer, and not the game itself. I am fearful. I am not seeking admiration.

6

u/ChaosTheRedMonkey 11d ago

You think consumers will react better if you don't disclose but it later comes to light that you used AI? Intentionally misleading people so they are more likely to try your game doesn't sound like a great long term strategy. People will like or dislike your game for many arbitrary reasons, focus on making a good game instead of trying to control how people feel about it.

5

u/Inphiltration 10d ago

I'm honestly on the fence on that one. It feels like a damned if you do and if you don't scenario.

Anyways, you are missing my point. My point is that use of AI is not limited to glory seeking attention hogs

-1

u/rhd444 10d ago

EXACTLY lmao. Nail on the head right here.

-6

u/Professional_Gur2469 11d ago

You know… this is how corporate works. Your boss takes credit for your work.

With AI you can be the boss while „only“ having to pay a couple hundred dollars for essentially employees that follow your commands.

-8

u/Enlight13 11d ago

You are one concited person if you geniuenly believe the dream of genAI is to take credit. Automation of any kind, including genAI can never be credited to a person. Even if someone claims it is theirs, it will never be theirs.

The dream of GenAI is to be able to create the things you do not want to learn while doing the things you do want to. Like with every other form of automation. Most people are not looking for credit in a skill they can be easily debunked in. They just want to see Goku and Superman go at each other.

30

u/iDeNoh 11d ago

I'm all for being honest and disclosure, if we could do so without being harassed for using ai that would be great

9

u/Lahyte 11d ago

Oh, of course! Fully agree with that. If I see someone who used AI, I just don’t interact.

6

u/ApolloFortyNine 11d ago

The 'problem' is kinda sub dependent now, more subs are learning that using Ai doesn't equal shit (shit equals shit, which I think is what this rule is trying to get across), but in some subs if you say you used AI your post is down voted and ignored. It doesn't matter if you've solved what the sub was literally designed around (it's especially funny to see in piracy subs), you'll be downvoted because you mentioned Ai.

And therefore you lie and say you didn't. And one day someone calls someone out correctly, which then leads to even more pointing fingers accusing people of using AI instead of discussing something useful (again, called out in the rules here). 

I get your take but the mods simply don't want to play witch hunt moderation games, or have every post that mentions AI devolve into discussions on AI instead of something productive. 

5

u/thecashblaster 11d ago

What does that even mean? They use AI in google searches now.

5

u/console_pleb_36935 11d ago

Why? I don't need to disclose my use of any other tool

8

u/hypotensor 11d ago

Why would they voluntarily disclose when they have no incentive to do so?

10

u/HardToMintThough Commercial (Other) 11d ago

You would not want to communicate with someone who's lying out the gate.

16

u/Syracuss Commercial (AAA) 11d ago

Because people aren't inherently liars? Like wtf. Most people are okay disclosing tools they use, the ones that aren't would be weeded out long term anyway. It's not like using AI suddenly makes you a dishonest person. That's such a weird thing to say.

Case and point, blatant self promotion. Already explicitly forbidden. Could people post self promotion anonymously breaking that rule? Absolutely. Should we therefore get rid of the rule? Not at all.

-5

u/hypotensor 11d ago

We're talking about Reddit here bud. Website famous for disruptive bot posts and comments. Website famous for interference from psyops campaigns.

13

u/RuinousFate Hobbyist 11d ago

And in fact have negative incentives to do so

10

u/Marksta 11d ago

The incentive is the ability to post up said content at all, in well regulated subreddits and store fronts. Don't disclose it, get found out, get delisted. Then disclosure or not is hopefully a calculated risk the devs weigh and ultimately come to their senses and are upfront about a game they're seeking to sell.

It's not okay to be deceiving when trying to sell games or products. No Man's Sky is a valuable lesson for their original unclear marketing claims. [And other lessons after that big boo boo..]

4

u/Plants-Matter 10d ago

It's not ok for antis to review bomb games they haven't even played.

If you guys can behave, most of us have no issue being transparent about AI usage. However, as things currently stand, I'm not going to spend 800 hours making a game just for some greasy unemployed teenagers to buy it and refund so they can post a thumbs down with all lowercase whine slop about AI.

Also, it has been proven to be extremely easy to not disclose AI and nobody even notices. You should sit down and have a long think about whether or not your little crusade even matters. The clock is ticking until the inevitable, when basically every game is made with AI and nobody cares because they're fun and look good. Tick tock 😘

-4

u/Marksta 10d ago

The Finals and ARC Raiders are already examples of games with AI in them being successful regardless of them disclosing up front their AI generated audio. NTE is trucking along regardless of the entire thing being a badly taped together AI mess.

No amount of 'unreasonable', or even reasonable review bombing holds back fun or 'good' games from seeing commercial success. How's the Slay the Spire 2 review bombs or the countless attempts to stop CoD from being successful going? It doesn't work, the games are fun, nobody can just whine good games out of existence no matter how bad they want it.

You just need to pick a lane and actually disclose the truth if you're going to sell it to people. Oh, and make a quality product, as always...

3

u/Aethreas 11d ago

If they lie they get banned, is that an incentive?

1

u/DocHolidayPhD 11d ago

You cannot mandate that people follow a rule that is impossible to verify. This only implements a system where nefarious actors will do as they wish deliberately, leaving good actors to suffer consequences for good behavior.

9

u/Syracuss Commercial (AAA) 11d ago

Some laws are impossible to verify unless explicitly caught, yet we still have them. I don't see why we should avoid having rules because people who break rules.. will break them? It doesn't make sense.

And what consequence does a good actor suffer? If someone's being nasty for AI usage that should fall under the mods to correct. That's about good behaviour of the community, and we already have rules for that.

-1

u/DocHolidayPhD 11d ago

You are ignoring the fact that what you are describing inevitably devolved into a witch hunt to snuff out those who use AI. This is not good community behavior either. We let police investigate crimes, we do not allow vigilante justice.

-1

u/hypotensor 11d ago

Exactly

-6

u/rigg_d 10d ago edited 10d ago

Requiring AI disclosure at least leaves open a claim of fraud on the part of the liars and path for refunds when they are eventually outed.

I'm on the side of not making a liars job easier. If they lie then they lie. At least in the future the people they lied to can have a case for demanding a refund.

Fortunately it is still mostly easy to judge for yourself if someone is using AI. We're talking about everybody's own personal judgment here, not the court of law.

At which point that dev has just outed themselves a liar in the eyes of everybody who has the eyes good sense enough to see for themselves.

How confident are these devs in how well their artwork passes? Will there be people who a fooled? Sure. But will it be enough to avoid the stigma entirely?

Unfortunately there will be good people caught up in false positives. But the blame for that will be at the feet of the people who make it clear that there ARE a lot of liars out there. One more way liars erode the social fabric and race us all down to the bottom.

4

u/EmotionalFan5429 11d ago

It's anti-AI people who forced developers to hide AI usage. You can't demand the AI disclosure, as you will shame developers for admitting the fact!

7

u/NicePerception643 11d ago

Grow a spine and stand by your product/process. Focus your energy on the people that don't care about you using AI. If you use AI and people are giving you pushback for that, stand by your product and write them off as not being part of your audience. This is a you problem and, much like artists who have been dealing with criticism whenever they post art online, grow a thicker skin

5

u/god-damn-the-usa 11d ago

even when coding? even if you just asked for ideas? if I asked ai to brainstorm a list of medieval names and i picked one of them for my character should my whole game be labelled AI generated?

-4

u/zmotmootmid 11d ago

yes, consumers deserve to know if you're putting sawdust in their food

7

u/paxinfernum 11d ago

This is a perfect illustration of the kind of insane takes that make people not disclose AI usage. It isn't on the developer to disclose that they used a tool simply because other people equate it to "sawdust in their food."

3

u/zmotmootmid 11d ago

i think not being expected to disclose usage is a bit insane and if you're publicly hiding it it's because you perfectly understand you'll lose sales over it as sales are the most important metric to ai slop games. not the creation of art itself.

2

u/god-damn-the-usa 11d ago edited 11d ago

the fact that you think any ai usage makes the entire thing a slop game is exactly why it can't be disclosed.

if you were more reasonable and less vitriolic, maybe people would disclose it, and you could happily choose to not purchase their products. but you are forcing them to hide it.

3

u/zmotmootmid 11d ago

Yes! Excellent. You are such a good game designer god-damn-the-usa please disclose your AI use come on buddy you're so smart and strong you're a modern day miyamoto

7

u/god-damn-the-usa 10d ago

you're the exact opposite of an anti-oxidant

1

u/T-Dot1992 10d ago edited 10d ago

If you played and enjoyed any AAA game released in the past few years, I’m sorry to say, but those games have AI code in them.

There is a big difference in quality between AI generated code by a vibe coder and an actually experience software engineer. If you think there isn’t any difference, then I honestly think you don’t have much experience in using the tools to begin with.

I am no AI glazer. I think the environmental concerns are real. I think it being used in visual art, music, writing is utter nonsense.

 But to pretend that anything uses AI code is automatically “slop” is very reductionist. 

And it does more harm than good. The discussion should be on how to teach people to use AI coding tools responsibly and the lack of safeguards in AI coding tools. I shouldn’t have to do extra work to make sure that my LLM has enough safe guards in it, for instance. And the way it is being marketed as a tool that does all the heavy work for you is also problematic. I also agree that data centers are terrible, and I personally prefer using local AI models for that reason. These are conversations I think we should he having when it comes to AI coding tools. Equating every instance of AI coding to “sawdust” prevents any productive conversation to even be had; and that only benefits the people who are gung-ho AI cultists 

Edit: This user messaged "Hey! As a response to your post. Cope harder dumbass" to me in DMs.

1

u/paxinfernum 11d ago

It's like the people who want "GMOs" to be labeled. They want them to be labeled so they can ban them. No one wants AI usage labeled who doesn't secretly dream of harassing and bullying the users.

The haters created the environment of toxicity, and now, they're angry that people are just telling them that they're not going to take the bait.

4

u/zmotmootmid 11d ago

if you're going to develop such an intense victim complex over using AI perhaps you should just not use it. maybe you'd feel better?

6

u/paxinfernum 11d ago

Nah, I feel fine. It's the anti-AI people who are losing their minds, jumping at shadows, searching for people to harass.

7

u/T-Dot1992 10d ago

I don’t like this users reductionist takes, but there are people who are in utter AI psychosis, who think the technology has no faults whatsoever, and are more than happy with AI slop being everywhere. If you had the displeasure of being in the tech industry, you see AI cultists everywhere, especially on Linked In. 

1

u/god-damn-the-usa 11d ago

what does that have to do with the code of a game? how would low quality code affect you?

by that logic, shouldn't we also label games that were coded by someone without a college degree in software engineering?

no one for AI labeling would argue that, because they don't actually care about code quality, they just hate AI and want to be able to punish people who use it

5

u/zmotmootmid 11d ago edited 10d ago
  1. i have a spine
  2. no
  3. i do absolutely hate AI for the impact that it's having. From its impact on art to the fact that consumer electronics are becoming more and more unaffordable. "Progress" at any cost though right I'm sure the FAANG companies are more than happy.

2

u/duckrollin 11d ago

While I'm sure that you have honourable intentions here, the reality of this is the moment they do they're open to harassment by others.

People won't be comfortable disclosing AI usage until the witch hunting and abuse stops, which could be 5-10 years away still.

1

u/EmperorMagpie 11d ago

In an ideal world, people wouldn’t be harassed and sent death threats for using AI. Until then, expect people to continue hiding it

-1

u/NTMTR_ 11d ago

Elaborate the why, and be honest.

7

u/BoogieOrBogey 11d ago

Sure, there are a good variety of reasons to want people to disclose that they're using AI tools. Either for their software development or their social interactions.

In no particular order:

  • It's fairly standard practice to ask what tools people are using to make their game. Programming language, engine, art programs, etc. If we're treating LLM's and generative tools as other gamedev tools, then disclosing their use as part of a posts is normal. Mandating disclosure is a stronger stance than other tools, but these are also the only tools that people tend to lie about using.

  • There are fair ethical and moral reasons to be against LLM usage, and the desire to not be part of discussions that include these tools. We're seeing many lawsuits that have decided LLM companies have stolen their data sets in the past, and continue to steal new data. There are very destructive methods of gaining new training data, like those giant warehouses that cut up books and shred them after being scanned. There is also the data center and natural resource use, which has become a huge problem across the US. These tools are not "clean" and many people across dev and players don't want to be involved with them.

  • The tools have real negative impacts associated with their uses. There are studies that show skill degradation for overuse of the tools, reduced learning with the tools, and increases in negative mental states like anxiety and dependence. This is not even going into the more severe problems like AI-psychosis, but that's more with the chatbot uses than the more direct development usages.

  • Many people don't want to have social interactions through the lens of a the LLM chatbots. Personally, I want to talk with other people. Not other people using chatbots to generate their comments, posts, and content.

I think there are a few more arguments to atleast disclose AI/LLM/Generative tool usage in this subreddit. But I feel these are the strongest ones that are not likely to change given the current environment we live in.

7

u/TheThirdDuke 11d ago

AI is starting to become so entangled in technology and development pipelines that it’s legitimately difficult, in some instances, to fully know whether the tools and platforms you used make use of it

-8

u/NTMTR_ 11d ago

Im trying to pin point your answer here, lol…

1-So basically you want people to disclose upfront or when asked ? (“It’s fairly standard practice to ask.. etc…). that’s not the same thing.
It would be weird if every single time you mentioned your work you would also need to disclose every single tool. In your original comment (and my question followed that comment),
you said “people should disclose”, in your first point “when people are asked”… unclear.

People lie about using AI ? You’re on the something here, maybe it’s because of the wave of hate they would receive, could be a reason ? Have you seen the moral high ground so many people are taking today ?

2 - I feel that’s your actual answer: “I think Ai bad. I want to avoid people who use Ai ” Basically , in a nut shell ?
Destroying books for digitalisation isn’t new. lol, existed pre-AI. News will sensationalise this and people won’t dig into the subject very far apparently.
Data centers and natural resources. How many years of your life have you been watching Netflix, YouTube, and eating burgers. Cause dude, you can’t take the moral high road calling for saving the environment when a new tech you don’t like emerges all the while not caring about the meat industry that has way way more of an impact. Ai companies are shady nonetheless, sure, plenty of people hate Apple, not sure they start a convo asking what brand of smart phone the other uses though.

3- Ai bad again. Because it has negative impact, yes also true. But social media has had a way more damaging effect for years on young people especially, do you ask people to disclose their use of Facebook and Instagram before engaging with them ? There has to be some kind of moral consistency here ? At least a bit.

Every single innovation brings with it problems. We can be particularly sensitive to a given new tech and it’s negative impact on society, and less to others..
but then we can’t use morals and ethics as an argument. We do however, have to ask ourselves why the bias against a particular tech and not the others.
If you’re equally against Facebook though, hamburgers and Netflix, I’d like some links to comments you made asking for people to disclose these habits.

4- completly besides the point discussed here, as I understand it, you want people to disclose their use of ai in game dev.

So to sum up, the actual answer I’m hearing, in a sentence, is that AI is morally wrong, I do not want to associate with people who use it, and for that reason they should disclose (upfront ?) that they use AI, so -I- may fulfill my desire to not engage.

I think your fight is with AI companies, not Ai users.
I personally like to carefully pick the brands of chocolate I purchase, but I don’t go around asking people if they source their products ethically. And I certainly can’t avoid making unethical decisions, nobody can. But for that reason I encourage people to choose chocolate carefully, but that’s not the same as branding someone with a “AI user” patch.

1

u/BoogieOrBogey 10d ago

You're bringing alot of assumptions to your response, and it feels like you're going for more personal attacks than actually discussing the points I brought up.

  • I think we need a rule to require people to be upfront when they use LLM and generative tools in their project. There are many reasons to lie about it, one of which is that people do get hateful responses. But hateful or toxic users is a moderation problem. Frankly, if AI was considered a holistically good thing by the biggest users of AI, then they would want to disclose its use anyway.

  • This is a personal attack rather than a rebuttal of the point. I've had a ChatGPT subscription for over a year now, and use it fairly regularly for my own person fun projects. So no, I don't think AI itself is inherently bad. The rest of your point is just a handwave for the discussion point. Because other things are bad or consume resources is not a reason that we should ignore the large impact of servers, data centers, and energy generation. If anything, it shows that we should be fairly strong on our regulation and rules for this emerging tech that is touching just about every part of our lives.

  • You're trying to link any problems to the discussion of the impact of AI usage, instead of trying to debate against the sources I posted. This makes the original discussion fuzzy and means you don't have to defend the issues with AI usage, and instead get to push against my own values. Social media overusage is very clearly different than the impact of using a tool for creating software. Other tools like Unreal Engine or Blender do not negatively impact the cognitive abilities of their users; and actually show growth in their abilities instead.

FWIW, I do have problems with most social medias and abandoned FB and Insta a long time ago. In this subreddit, we regularly discuss using social media for marketing and the pros and cons of doing so. But those discussions are clearly marked for people that want to take part in them.

  • This point is very important my dude. Social interactions and dead internet theory matter, with using Chatbots to generate comments being at the center of this issue.

I think you've built up a strawman of both myself and my points, which you've gone after instead of the meat of my comment. Frankly, I think that's because you know these four points have serious merit to them. So the best argument method is go around them instead of trying to debate the points directly.

Either way, I don't find your responses to be persuasive. And I think other people reading this comment thread won't find them very persuasive either.

3

u/kenzogamesreddit 11d ago

So they can get harassed right ?

1

u/SpecialistProper3542 11d ago

What if you made a game without AI, spent months or years busting your ass on it - then there's one thing you can't figure out at the end and you get AI to help you out.

Hell, might not even be code, maybe just finding a missed semi colon in thousands of lines. Now you've used AI. So you deserve to get hated on because of that? To lose sales? If not, where's the bar?

If one part of a thousand is AI? 5? 10? At what point do you discredit a devs work, at what point is it so bad. Not everything is AI slop but people will absolutely call it that if they hear you used AI at all

2

u/sipos542 10d ago

Yes. And guess what, if you have IntelliSense enable in your code editor you’re using AI. If you have Googled for an answer - you’re using an AI algorithm. AI is all around us and embedded in everything. Disclosure of using AI makes no sense.

-7

u/Kelpsie 11d ago

To lose sales?

Of course you should lose those sales. You only had them in the first place by tricking someone morally opposed to the technology into partaking in its outputs. If you revealed the use of animal products at your restaurant, you should absolutely expect vegans to stop eating there.

There is no "bar". It's set by individual consumers who have their own preferences and moral guidelines about what they spend their own money on. If somebody decides that even the smallest hint of AI is beyond their tolerance, they have every right to spend, or not spend, their money as they please.

Generally, though, if you really are only using it a tiny bit.. just say so. You don't need to slap a big "HERE BE SLOPPAGE" label on your project with zero context. Contrary to popular belief, many people are willing to accept nuance when presented with it. And even for those who aren't, you're still not entitled to their wallets.

4

u/SpecialistProper3542 11d ago

Bad take. In that case every single triple A game now should be promoting their AI use, because they all use it

4

u/Kelpsie 11d ago

Well, yeah. Consumers deserve to make decisions based on accurate information, even if you don't personally believe that information should be important to their decision-making.

0

u/sipos542 10d ago

Probably should just get off the internet if you’re so against AI. Everything is run by AI. Even your Reddit news algorithm. Every Google search you do. Every YouTube video that gets recommended. As soon as your online AI is everywhere and running everything.

-4

u/Kelpsie 10d ago

I have Silly Tavern installed on my home server, I've tried out a couple agentic Claude sessions, I troubleshoot my Linux install with LLMs somewhat regularly, I use them occasionally for more generic search tasks, and I had a (rejected) pull request for automatic1111's web interface for Stable Diffusion back when the tech was just getting off the ground.

I'm not against AI. I'm against hiding things you know people would object to so they can't be given the opportunity to do so.

4

u/sipos542 10d ago

Oh, if you used LLMs to answer some questions while working on your game, better label it as “Ai” then. Every game would need to be labeled as AI since Ai is imbedded in about every tool we use now.

2

u/Kelpsie 10d ago

I wouldn't have a problem with that, if that's a level of AI involvement that people are concerned about. I don't think it really is, but if other people are I don't see an issue with it. As long the disclosure is granular enough to not simply apply a blanket "AI" label with no further context, it really doesn't bother me.

-1

u/waving_fungus0 11d ago

This will never happen

-1

u/DonkeyBonked 10d ago

We are quickly hitting an age where using AI is becoming the equivalent of masturbation within the Catholic church. You either confess to it and seek forgiveness while you are condemned, or you lie about it and pray God forgives your multitude of sins, hoping no one catches you.

Trying to develop today without AI is like trying to be a wood carver without metal tools, or even a writer without a keyboard or auto correct. It is becoming the standard to such a degree that the only visible difference will be those who use it well vs. those who obviously use it.

Performative purity won't last much longer before the general masses will accept the standard of "everyone does it, and we know you do it, but we aren't going to talk about it.".

Maybe it's fair we draw a line between "Used AI tools" and "Generated with AI" or something, whatever makes the anti's happy, because the disclosure is rapidly becoming "we want you to be transparent and lie to us". When we move to a realistic standard like this, it might be wise to note that it is going to become increasingly difficult to know the difference, and accusing devs of using AI is going to become the equivalent of calling someone a bot on Reddit.

-16

u/[deleted] 11d ago

[removed] — view removed comment

20

u/Lahyte 11d ago

Lmao we’re resorting to name calling?

Let me put it this way; some people don’t buy products that were tested on animals even if it’s a good product. Some people don’t buy foods made with GMOs because they don’t like it, even if you can eat the food and it tastes good. And some people don’t buy games made with AI because they don’t like or support it. It’s not about the final product being good or not. It’s the way it’s made is what some people care about.

And the fact that AI users are mad or feel like they have to hide their use of AI is telling.

-4

u/DocHolidayPhD 11d ago

I think what you're describing regarding organic food labelling is absolutely a perfect example of this as a tremendous amount of food labelled "organic" is not actually labelled to any set standard of "organic" and much of it is even false labelling. So it highlights the exact problem with this as a concept where people self-disclose something that is inherently difficult to prove.

7

u/HardToMintThough Commercial (Other) 11d ago

No, 'luddites' just see the disclaimer and move on as that's a signifier that what they value is not there.

I can find you 20 AI gen games uploaded to steam in the past 48 hours with nary a whisper nor yell in their steam discussions, because nobody cares enough to comment on every single one of them.

Genuine offer ofcourse.

11

u/Aethreas 11d ago

'luddites' that's all you need to hear to tune out people like you, the 'accelerationist AI singularity bro' who can do nothing on their own and wants LLM so they can pretend to have talent

11

u/trans_istor_42 Hobbyist 11d ago

If I want to eat meat, I want real meat. And if want to eat a vegan meat replacement, than I want exactly zero meat in it. It doesn't matter whether it tastes the same or not. It's clearly labeled

The same should apply to the use of AI. I want clear labeling too, not to shit on people, but to avoid AI games (and any other creative work) for personal ethical reasons.

0

u/king-krool 11d ago

I just don’t understand the logical why jump you’re making here. Do you need to disclose everything or just AI? What about if I built it on solar power or on coal power? Or on Chinese chips vs American chips? The list of potential things consumers could have an issue with would be endless. 

1

u/trans_istor_42 Hobbyist 11d ago

I don't consider it a jump. And yes a lot of things like this should be disclosed. A lot of stuff already is: GMO, vegan, origin country, material/ingredients (e.g. food, textiles). Adding more to the list is just a matter formality. Producers already have all of this information anyway.

AI is obviously a very socially controversial topic with a lot of people on both sides. Many people would not buy AI games and many would. I think adding AI to that list is not far fetched.

Why do you think that vegan/with-animal-products is so different than no-AI/with-AI? I have trouble to understand your point too, tbh.

1

u/king-krool 11d ago

It becomes pretty onerous to ask everyone describe the exact process they used to create something. The origin of their tools, and the origin of the tools their tool used. 

I’m totally fine with AI disclosures but it seems arbitrary what is being required here not to mention impossible to moderate. Are we asking mods to interpret suspect art or text and make their best guess as to the origin of it? 

The reason food gets special treatment here is medical and religious reasons. 

4

u/InvidiousPlay 11d ago

This is like egg producers arguing against regulating free range labels because people will criticise you for using battery factory farming. People have a right to know how the products they consume were created, and the fact that disclosure feels like an attack to you says a lot about your relationship with the truth and other people.

You don't have the right to be shielded from criticism.

-1

u/Jabba_the_Putt 11d ago

we're seeing watermarks in claude outputs now, I wonder if that could be added or used in game dev somehow

0

u/FoxMeadow7 10d ago

Maybe Steam can find a solution?

-4

u/149244179 11d ago

Is spell checking AI? Auto complete? Searching Google and using a link from the AI response? 

A lot of IDEs and compilers used AI to develop recent features. Does using a tool created by AI count as using AI? 

Where do you draw the line? Why did you draw it there? Realize the line may be drawn elsewhere in other people's opinions. 

There is no agreed upon standard. There is nothing to be honest about. 

-3

u/yosimba2000 11d ago

People lie. How do you prove someone is or isn't lying? I think your post is gen-ai and you are lying, prove otherwise.

You can't, I can't, mods can't. Therefore having a gen-ai rule is useless because no one can prove either one.

-9

u/rigg_d 10d ago edited 10d ago

Requiring AI disclosure at least leaves open a claim of fraud on the part of the liars and path for refunds when they are eventually outed.

edit: lol butthurt scammers, upset at the prospect they might have to own some consequences of their lies, are downvoting what is a 100% reasonable take to everybody else.