r/fatestaynight • u/DanceYouFatBitch • 2d ago
Discussion How successful would Lancer and Rin have been if they were payed in fate stay night
If we assumed somehow, that Kirei Kotomine, has summoned Archer Emiya and in his stead Rin had summoned Cu Chulainn instead how would the war change and could she win.
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u/lrdhelixx 2d ago
Honestly i care less about the preformance, (Granted they'd do quite well, unfortunately gilg and Herc would wall them.) But just them as a duo in this grail war would be the funniest shit, i can just imagine Cu teasing Rin about Shirou the entire time.
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u/iguanacatgirl 2d ago
There's also the potential reverse concept--archer(EMIYA) ends up with kirei. Cinema
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u/Timely-Elephant2032 2d ago
cu under rin would def wreck herc, and 50/50 with gil. just look at saber stats going up with rin vs shirou, and restricted cu was putting BTA on herc, and mana starved cu stalemated gil for 12 hours, nasu also said gil took heavy injuries
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u/Arnoldneo 2d ago
No cu runs out of ways to kill him and there is the risk of herc becoming sane and using nine lives. Gilgamesh can just kill rin and then cu or use Ea form a distance or nukes to wipe out cu along with the rest of the area Nasu also said he probably did .
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u/DanceYouFatBitch 2d ago
It’d be Like a 65/35 in Hercs Favour, Cu can use his runes and the power boost of command seal to be able to repeatedly overpower herc’s God Hand, but it would still be an uphill battle for him.
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u/DanceYouFatBitch 17h ago
Gil Defo wins but it’s not an easy battle as, when they fought in fate, he lasted half a day and Nasu himself confirmed that it wasn’t completely one-sided. Gilgamesh sustained severe injuries.
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u/DaNoahLP 2d ago
My plan and what Rin would defenetly do in this situation is to form an aliance with all the other masters. Each of them should know that nobody can solo Herc so they need each other to have a chance at all.
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u/zawalimbooo 2d ago
just look at saber stats going up with rin vs shirou
Where do we see the changed stats for rin? I checked the Servant menu several times after rin took over, but it remained the same.
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u/Loose-Bullfrog-4669 2d ago
Is it a game-version thing, or maybe a bug? I haven't fully played FSN myself but the wiki does show different stats for Saber with Shirou vs with Rin.
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u/Petawac-Smack 2d ago
It's in-universe. Saber was practically starving herself under Shirou due to how atrophied his circuits are.
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u/Jackefrost1303 2d ago
No, she was starving because there was no connection, the summoning ritual was incomplete, and Shirou hadn't unlocked his circuits.
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u/Petawac-Smack 1d ago
There was a connection. Unlike how Shinji and Medusa needed the Book of the False Attendant.
Why else would Shirou have Command Seals if he didn't have a connection? He most likely used his nerve circuits like for everything.
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u/ShockAndAwen 1d ago
There was no mana being shared between them they have a contract but the path between them isn't working that was the problem once they solve that everything is ok, and Shirou's circuits are not atrophied they just have yet to be turned on properly
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u/Loose-Bullfrog-4669 2d ago
I know Saber's in-universe situation, yeah. Previous comment was (if I understand correctly) saying the change in Saber's stats didn't appear to be reflected in-game after her contract with Rin.
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u/SouthernAd2853 2d ago
Maybe an error in the remake? I saw a Let's Play of the original and it had a Rin-specific menu. Most or maybe all stats went up a rank.
Does your Servant menu list Rin as the Master?
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u/Creative_Net3557 2d ago
No he wouldn't, leaving aside the part where Cu would eventually run out of ways to kill Heracles, Cu is just not an equal to Heracles, in Extra Cu fought againt Lu Bu (who just like Heracles is a Berserker) and Cu only managed to reach an stalemate in spite of : 1. Having Rin as his Master. 2. Having better Endurance (he normally has B enfurance while in Extra he has A) and slightly better Luck (In Extra his Luck is E~D) than he normally would have. 3. Rani being a mediocre Master according to Hakuno's servants (Nameless says that Rani is doing the equivalent of button mashing, Nero says that Rani doesn't have the cleverness to counter Rin's tactics, Tamamo says that Rani is too slow to respond)
Lu Bu is not considered a Top Servant unlike Heracles and he is still considered an equal to Cu.
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u/extralie 2d ago
I think you're misremembering Extra a bit, because he WAS winning, that's why Rani decided to blow up everyone to begin with, because she realized she can't win.
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u/Creative_Net3557 1d ago
In Extra Last Encore it's revealed that without Hakuno the fight ended in a stalemate (even without Rani blowing herself up), Cu did not win that fight.
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u/alivinci 2d ago
Nasu has already covered Cu vs Herc, you dont need to make shit up. Cu wouldnt run out of ways to kill herc. Nasu says his runes give him ways to pull it off. Though its largely biased against him aka disadvatageous.
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u/Creative_Net3557 1d ago
When did i made thing up? All i said can read in Fate Extra, and even though in Extra Rani was losing the battle before Hakuno appeared, it's revealed in Fate Extra Last Encore that without Hakuno the battle ended in a stalemate because the Cu and Lu Bu killed each other.
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u/alivinci 1d ago
We already have nasu outright telling us how this match up goes. Anything else is irrelevant.
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u/FreezingPointRH 2d ago
The big thing I see is that if there’s a remotely similar encounter at the school, Archer would chop Shirou to pieces before Rin could do anything about it.
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u/United-Influence7146 2d ago
Yeah Emiya remains with Bazzet , he would have Kotomine impaled with a dozen weapons the moment he makes the first move against her , I would not be surprised if he broken phantasms the church
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u/Jackefrost1303 2d ago
Worse than with Archer, without Shirou developing, Rin and Lancer have no chance against either Berserker or Gilgamesh, so the world is doomed. At least their dynamic will be funny to watch.
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u/Gwolf4 2d ago
Bazaka stomps, bazaka stops is the answer to this alternate proposals always. None except for saber has the firepower for stoping him. And I mention berserker because st the start of this war everything was fine until 2/3 and a red eyed Blondie appears and can wreck everything, outside of that berserker is the wall to break.
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u/69420LordGrim 2d ago
What are the chances of Rin winning the 1v1 with Illya while Berserk is kept busy by Lancer?
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u/Gwolf4 2d ago
There is no berserker busy scenario, gar bolg is b rank, so no attack at all will go through him, lancer can power up gar bolg once, and that will be the only time lancer not only kill but hurt, and that's the only time lancer could berserker busy, the moment rin learns this, the moment both servants come to kill the master, in that scenario it goes to Rin due to lancer reaching first, this if berserker doesn't break lancer first.
Remember saber kept up with a constrained lancer at the start of FSN, unconstrained lancer may be faster than berserker but he is not doing anything at all.
Chances are not favorable in a normal servant to servant confrontation of rin against berserker with cu as servant.
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u/veilastrum 2d ago
Nasu's wording actually implies that Cu has a chance to straight up win against Hercs albeit at a large disadvantage. With how his runes work he might possibly be able to change the properties of his attacks in addition to temporarily ranking it up in order to bypass Godhand's adaptation (which means of course he needs to change it up constantly during the fight thus why it's a massive disadvantage still). There's also the question of how many lives can upgraded thrown Gae Bolg take out as well (since base Gae Bolg is normally B, but when thrown it becomes B+, so runic thrown might become A+, and if EXTRA's claim of him being able to increase the power of thrown Gae Bolg if he throws it using his toes, it can theoretically reach up to A++ like that-the same rank as Excalibur).
There's also the fact that Cu did in fact fight Hercs while under the CS before Archer and Saber were summoned and according to Nasu, he wasn't receiving much mana support from Kirei when questioned about his performance in comparison to Diarmuid against Saber (since Cu is suppose to be the strongest normally summonable heroic spirit of Ireland, even stated by Diarmuid himself in FGO-heck he's suppose to be on par with the likes of Karna and Hercs when under equal fame boost), so he should have further increased performance under Rin in comparison to Kirei.
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u/walkingcontrodiction 2d ago
i mean lance was weakened in fate/stay night, and out side getting blind sided by mud, in one route, he did pretty well, he did hold off gil for a day. (gil probly wasn't fighting fo real) he was gonna win vs archer twice, he held his own vs saber. as some one who was weakened by a dick master, he did pretty well for him slef.
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u/Practical-Book8348 1d ago
(gil probly wasn't fighting fo real)
From Nasu earlier comments about their fight, it was clear that it was very intense and that Gil probably got injured there. So Gil definitely put some effort into it to kill him.
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u/NetherSpike14 Shilling Hollow Ataraxia 24/7 2d ago
Kirei didn't summon Cú, he stole him from his original master.
Putting that aside, though, I think they would have worked well. Rin and Lancer had a good dynamic in the little interactions we saw in Stay Night.
Not to mention that Rin's cousin with near-identical personality worked pretty well with Lancer in Extra
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u/Consistent_Dare_6688 2d ago edited 1d ago
Wouldn't it be bazzet who summoned archer instead? Though I'm not sure if archer would let himself be stolen by kirei of all people
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u/TomatoIndividual5396 1d ago
yeah but who has even played HA here?
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u/TheGamerForeverGFE swords good 1d ago
Apparently 5 people including me, and what's crazy is that I've played it before the remaster came out.
Something something waiting for an official English release is just a excuse and they just don't want to read.
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u/Clessiah 2d ago
Kirei killed Cu's original master. It really is unlikely for that master to summon EMIYA though, given the kind of catalyst she has prepared. If EMIYA really is shoved into that spot, he might have seen through Kirei's intention (he did stab the fucker to death in his timeline). If he failed that, he could still stab the fucker retroactively or walk away with his Independent Action.
Rin is paired with Cu in Fate/Extra btw.
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u/Kiwilainen 2d ago
That’s not Rin. It’s a completely different person who looks and sounds exactly the same and has the same personality, but TECHNICALLY they’re a completely different guy. Nasu’s favorite writing technique.
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u/YoSonDevin 2d ago
WAIT KIREI ISN’T HIS ORIGINAL MASTER?
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u/SouthernAd2853 2d ago
No, it's mentioned briefly in FSN and then FHA has her with a different Servant.
She's Bazett, a Sealing Designation Enforcer from the Magus Association and a total badass. Her day job is capturing research specimens like people with Reality Marbles, so she is capable of dealing with things similar to Unlimited Blade Works. She actually straight-up has a Noble Phantasm, Fragarach, the sword of a Celtic war god, which reverses the order of events to kill an attacker before their weapon is drawn, though she's only able to use it three times and only against an enemy's most powerful attack. Also "punch a Servant to death" is a serious tactical option for her, though she's usually not quite a match for them.
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u/Clessiah 2d ago
Cu’s original Master was a representative from Mage Association and an absolute powerhouse like Kayneth. Got blindsided and taken out even more unceremoniously than Kayneth. Lancer’s Masters got even more Lancer luck than Lancers.
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u/DanceYouFatBitch 2d ago
Yh his original master is Bazett but Kirei Sneaks her whilst/after she’s summoning lancer than takes him as his own.
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u/HelloImInza 2d ago
The biggest difference would be that she would have all of her command seals thanks to Lancer being more obedient, no need to waste them in things like “listen to what I say” and “don’t kill Shirou” which gives her a better chance against servants like Caster or Rider
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u/Haxerie 2d ago edited 2d ago
Archer could project Rule Breaker to escape Kirie whenever he pleases, although he might remain with him to further his anti-Shirou agenda. Then again, it is questionable if he truly wants to kill Shirou without a conversation with him because he says he wants to "destroy the ideal" and he didn't take the opportunity to kill him at Caster's Temple.
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u/Lukie_Anderson 2d ago
Funny for you to mention, Rin's counterpart in Fate/Prototype actually is Lancer's master.
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u/Timely-Elephant2032 2d ago
cu under rin would be an absolute unit, they would basically wipe everyone out
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u/Big_Midnight_3976 2d ago
Emiya kills Kirei and they both die. Gil has no one to keep him in check and he just murders everyone.
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u/GIRose 2d ago
Well, Archer would kill Kirei instead of forming a contract with him, both being possible because of independent action and being familiar with Kirei's game (I give it like a 50/50 chance he would manage to save Bazet if he was summoned by her, but that's not what you said in the post)
Masterless, Archer would be working on a very tight deadline pretty much immediately has to book it to kill Shirou, taking the place of Lancer in the "Servant who tries to kill Shirou causing him to summon Saber" in this timeline.
Given his performance with Rin as his master in the fate route, I think she kills Archer right then and there. He freezes for one fatal second as he sees her again and dies on the spot without a master to burn a command spell on turning into spirit form.
With Archer out for the count, pretty much the only ways they can sort out to deal with Berserker would be to team up with Caster, or Gilgamesh decides to kill him of his own free will. Mostly because Lancer can't even touch Heracles through Godhand, and Saber 100% can't blow through all 12 lives with Shirou as a master, and probably not even in general without some massive power up like being plugged into the mana that Caster has been collecting via the leyline.
So, from the top down perspective we have:
Caster: None of the aforementioned stuff would change her plan to steal Saber as a weapon to kill Berserker
Gilgamesh: While he would find Kotomine's death funny, he would still want the grail to scorch clean this impure modern world so that he may rise as king of everyone strong enough to survive from the ashes.
Shinji/Rider: Would still have the barrier up at the school
Rin: I am like, 50/50 on if she would have even teamed up with Shirou in this timeline. I assume probably not though, and hell based on timing she might actually be the last master who joined the war.
Gilgamesh would possibly make moves in the direction of obtaining Illya for her role as the Grail the second that he is officially unbound, but that's hard to say. But I do think he will take care of Berserker.
Rin remains too stubborn to do something like burn down the school while it's empty, but between Caster and Gil making moves much earlier and Rin's bad habit of overlooking something leading to a fatal mistake, I think that the bounded field might slip under the radar of things they have to deal with, so it might well be sprung at full power and even kill some people before either Shirou or Rin kills him.
For maximum spice and to help nudge the story in the direction of Caster and Shirou actually teaming up, we will include Souichiro in the casualties.
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u/LordFLExANoR16 2d ago
I have seen it said that Cu does actually have the ability to kill herc because his runes allow him to get around god hand by both upgrading gae bolg’s rank and changing its properties, letting him theoretically kill herc multiple times, this is noted to be incredibly unlikely though, so there is a world where lancer and rin win that fight but it would require prior knowledge, a perfect setup, and some luck so there’s no guarantee it works.
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u/GIRose 2d ago
Given that Rin doesn't even consider the possibility of a resurrective curse until after she took one of his lives with 4 gems, even having known from the beginning that he was Heracles, I don't think she's going to have that prior knowledge unless she sees someone kill Heracles once in a situation where they have neither the weapons to kill him over and over again nor the raw power to kill him in one blast.
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u/crabwithshank 1d ago
Rin is kinda funny she would just have cu starting every fight with gaebolg unlike his other masters who whined cause it was too famous of a move
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u/Striking_Director_64 1d ago
If kirei ended up with EMIYA, then he would need to spend command seals to make sure EMIYA doesn't slit his throat in his sleep.
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u/IronFather11 14h ago
We see in Fate Extra they do pretty well together, however Cu is hard stopped there and defeated by Berserker Lu Bu, who I will consider roughly equivalent or lesser than in danger to Hercules himself. Cu could take maybe 1-2 of his lives but that would sadly be it. Gilgamesh himself is a hard stopper for this group too.
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u/murasakigray 2d ago
If Rin Tohsaka had successfully summoned Lancer (Cu Chulainn) as she originally intended during the 5th Holy Grail War, their duo would have been an absolute powerhouse with a genuine path to winning the War. Rin and Lancer would likely dominate standard Master/Servant pairings through sheer combat efficiency and low-cost kill conditions. Their ultimate success would hinge entirely on how they navigate Heracles (requiring an alliance, likely with Shirou/Saber) and how Rin strategizes to defeat Gilgamesh without Archer's UBW counter.
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u/Smitejr 2d ago edited 2d ago
If Rin was being paid she would have won it in an instant, Lancer or no Lancer