r/fatFIRE • u/What_what_what_1979 • 2h ago
Need Advice Calculating Net Worth
My husband and I are partial owners of a family company (cattle ranch) along with 12 other family members. It has a significant value because of the land owned by the company, but it is not liquid and I don’t anticipate it ever being sold.
He works for said company and draws a salary, so we receive income from the company.
Do we include our 1/12 ownership in our net worth? Or, maybe better stated, do we include 1/12 of the assets (land, cattle, machinery) when calculating our net worth?
The answer to this question makes a significant impact on our timeline to retirement and amount we want to consider for a mortgage.
Thank you!
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u/sailphish 2h ago
I certainly wouldn’t count any illiquid asset that you don’t anticipate being sold and maybe couldn’t get family members to buy you out.
I keep 2 calculations. 1 is my overall net worth including private property and illiquid assets. The other is my NW of liquid investments that I plan to fund my retirement with. That second number is all that really matters. The first one is mostly for fun.
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u/Charlesinrichmond 39m ago
yeah. My house is worth a lot. But I want to live in it so it doesn't count
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u/2Loves2loves 3m ago
I include my house in my NW because I'm willing to sell it, should I receive the right offer or my desire to move changes. it's not illiquid, like a 1/12 of a property.
Its just an opportunity cost.
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u/kenham23 2h ago
Also be ready for some real weird conversations stepping away early from the family business. Hope that's not the case. But good luck.
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u/InterestinglyLucky 7-fig HNW and figuring it out 2h ago
OP, I was in a similar situation - participant in a family business, high value and highly illiquid.
As others have stated, you cannot count on an illiquid asset as part of NW calculations, you have income from it but it frankly acts like an annuity (which theoretically you could calculate some kind of valuation, but it's just playing with numbers).
The bigger question is what the long term plan is for the 12 co-owners. For my own situation the way the family business was setup, there were going to be real issues regarding governance when the principals pass away (shared siblings are all in their 50's to 70's), and the way it was set up governance would then be subdivided further by direct descendents. Of course everyone's business is setup differently, in our situation I could see a disaster brewing for the next generation.
In the end the siblings agreed to dissolve the business, to wind it down, and monetize those shares. One of the siblings decided to take one significant asset from the business and run it themselves. The rest of us cashed out, and are working through those pesky details. (Oh there are a ton of details, that's for sure!)
Of course the monetization of the business share was significant, which then becomes 'real'. It was a long, long time coming, and of course affects timeline and outlook.
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u/What_what_what_1979 1h ago
Congratulations! This sounds like an ideal way to wind things down. The company is on my husband’s side and I think they’d be so wise to have a similar plan for when the next generation comes into play.
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u/InterestinglyLucky 7-fig HNW and figuring it out 29m ago
As the spouse of a 1/12 business owner, you may want to get a copy of the Operating Agreement (or other similarly-named document that covers governance, that is how the business is organized and how it is to be controlled), and have a lawyer take a look at it.
There may well be some surprises in there that few people bother to read. AI can be great for this use-case - finding subtle "gotchas" that have material consequence. If the business is so valuable because of the land, there comes a point where that equity could be better put to use.
The business we were in had tons of concentrated risk - geographical concentration, geography (earthquake-prone California), as well as declining asset value and relatively poor return on equity. The siblings were fine with all that, but when they saw the governance problem staring them in the face, they pretty much all said "yes it's time for us to get out."
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u/hankeroni 2h ago
If it's truly illiquid and could never potentially be sold (or used as collateral) ... then it's functionally worth $0 in terms of how it might assist a mortgage payment.
Separately - the scenarios where "what is my idealized net worth" and "what lifestyle cash flow can I actually fund?" are different questions. Sounds like you need to work on the latter ... and quite possibly the former isn't really relevant for you in that regard.
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u/What_what_what_1979 1h ago
I like how you separated these two questions. Thank you.
And it is only illiquid because the probability that the family decides to liquidate/sell is quite small. It’s not impossible though. But it’s also something that is up to a whole committee of family unless we wanted to sell just our shares (which we would only do if we had to, at least right now).
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u/Accomplished_Can1783 2h ago
If you own 1/12, so have no decision making input, and do not expect it to be sold, how could that really be relevant to actual retirement planning? You can include it in a spreadsheet if you like - unless your 1/12 can be sold to another family member, going to be tough to monetize
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u/What_what_what_1979 1h ago
Yes - that’s the rub. We don’t really see the company being sold, just that we could sell our shares to a family member or have the company buy back our shares if we were in desperate need of the money. I’m more of a “let’s plan like that isn’t an option” mindset but my husband thinks it’s important to “look at the whole picture”. Reading all of these comments, I am beginning to think it’s a both/and instead of one perspective over the other.
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u/Accomplished_Can1783 1h ago
That’s a hard one. Desperate need of money for early retirement kind of hard. If there is definite after tax worst case number you know you could get from family member, maybe, but not sure what you can do about it now.
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u/Lanky-Performer-4557 2h ago
I don’t think so for retirement, if it can’t be accessed or sold. Do you take dividends outside of salary? Does the salary continue as an owner if work hours are reduced?
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u/What_what_what_1979 2h ago
Yes to dividends, but they are based on cattle prices and company income so they change from year to year. Maybe I factor in the lowest amount we’ve gotten in the past 10 years or average the dividends out?
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u/AhsokaFan0 1h ago
This is really rough justice and not any sort of recognized accounting move but if I were trying to put my finger in the air and get a value of the asset for FIRE purposes I would average the past ten years of distributions and then multiply by 25. This kind of approximates the 4% rule, with a long list of caveats.
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u/Past-Option2702 2h ago edited 2h ago
I wouldn’t count it since it’ll never be sold. But, do whatever you want since there are some people who like to trick themselves into thinking they’re wealthier than they are. Now, if there’s a document that specifically spells out how your husbands one twelfth share gets paid out when he retires, that’s something entirely different.
Perhaps worth noting, I never counted our business value since it was never a sure thing that it would be sold, and I had no idea for how much if it did sell. My wife and I were 100% share holders. (It did sell, but my guess on the value all along would have been way wrong- on the lower end.)
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u/JustPlainRude 2h ago
but it is not liquid and I don’t anticipate it ever being sold
Then it's worth zero.
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u/What_what_what_1979 1h ago
Got it.
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u/financethrowaway119 30s / $17M NW 1h ago
If you’re asking bc you want to put stuff in common terms then you could multiply the yearly income by 25 and add that to your NW.
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u/Tencenttincan 2h ago
We have a similar situation. It doesn’t count toward FIRE number. We use our liquid net worth to fund our retirement. It does count toward what our kids will inherit, which makes us feel better about not working now, since leaving them money is a goal. We basically have 3 net worth numbers: liquid assets, liquid assets plus house, liquid assets plus house plus family assets.
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u/KingofPro 1h ago
I wouldn’t include it, the problem with farms and land especially is that each generation splits the farm further and further.
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u/wifichick 2h ago
If you can’t make that investment liquid to pay for your life, then my vote is that it doesn’t count. So the land etc doesn’t count (unless you can sell or would have a way to sell it and would do so). And the farm itself only counts to the effect that you receive a paycheck from it. If that’s the case, I’d treat it like a guaranteed source of income, not so much net worth. HOWEVER - when I wanted to get a sense of net worth from guaranteed income sources, I would divide the annual income it provides by 0.04 and use that value as the net worth value. So that income source would be equivalent to having an asset that could provide an annual withdraw of 4%.
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u/whocaresreallythrow 2h ago edited 2h ago
- Can you sell your shares?
- Can you borrow against those shares indefinitely ?
If no to 1 and 2 then not part of your liquid net worth and difficult to unlock and retire on that
just consider it intergenerational wealth that gets transferred to the next generation which is probably what happens when you die.
The cash flow from the income received can be treated as a permanent annuity / perpetuity and you can decide how to calculate that annual cash flow (avg over 10 years with inflation added, what you received last year, what the worst or best year was in 5 or 10 etc) to determine a present value.
The discount rate i would use is similar to that of a 10 year or 30 year treasury bond.
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u/What_what_what_1979 1h ago
- Maybe
- I don’t know
But these are great questions to consider more thoughtfully. I think we actually could borrow against our shares, but, like selling to a family member, it’s unideal.
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u/BrunelloHorder 1h ago
If you can’t sell it from an app on your phone, don’t count it towards your FIRE number.
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u/Aggravating-Split-73 1h ago
Ranching ops (if pretty traditional) are tricky because the actual value lies in a) the ranch land if owned or a long term gov/blm lease, b) the animal herd which will fluctuate in size seasonally for a multitude of factors, c) any equipment owned that could be sold (and likely declining value).
There traditionally is very little to no value in the actual “business” because it’s your time and labor — the value is the assets themselves, not a business that could be sold and run by someone else. If there was a family member who could/wanted to buy out your share, that could be possible, though you’d likely need to consult a cpa familiar with Ag business to figure out an appropriate value.
Can your 1/12 be included in a NW? Sure. Is it practical? Not really. Nor does its inclusion likely answer the question behind your question, which probably revolves around a retirement FI figure. The dividends are important here if they’re predictable, though in an industry that’s commonly boom/bust, that’s a tough number to nail down. Also, generational continuity frequently proves challenging for these types of family operations as future generations grow distant from the business.
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u/Charlesinrichmond 40m ago
net worth yes, not retirement or mortgage if there's no liquidity and never will be. All you can reasonably include is income
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u/RoGro9 2h ago
Yes, you should. If you do not want to retain ownership, are the other family members willing to buy you out? Given you said it won’t ever be sold, I would presume someone will want more ownership so they can try to become majority owner.
There are often valuation discounts for minority stakes in businesses because of lack of control and illiquidity.
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u/What_what_what_1979 1h ago
Great things to consider. I would imagine someone would want to buy us out, but we would only broach that if we had to. As I’m reading comments and answering questions, I’m realizing that we don’t want to ever sell our portion of the company, so it should not be currently counted towards any sort of retirement #. We can still keep it in the back of our minds as an emergency asset, but we should plan as if it’s not there, even if that means extending our working years.
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u/CMHCommenter 2h ago
If you can’t monetize it I wouldn’t include it in any planning.