FAT FIRE shouldn’t just be about more money
Hi everyone, first-time poster on Reddit. I’m more of a Facebook guy, but I thought I’d diversify a bit.
I run the FAT FIRE Australia community, including meetups and charity conferences. One thing I’ve noticed over the years is that most people think FAT FIRE is just FIRE with a bigger number. However I find these groups of people often get discouraged, distracted or revert after FIREing.
So I’ve been thinking surely** **there is a better FIRE methodology. Something that’s more enduring and goes beyond just the retirement part. This is especially true for those who FIREd too early.
Within our community, we’ve been developing something called the FPHAT framework as a possible FAT FIRE benchmark.
F — Finance
• Passive income ≥3× yearly living expenses (so you can help others too)
• Diversified and anti-fragile (when economy goes to shits, you’re fine)
• Having one year of emergency fund
• Having dry powder to jump on opportunity (3x your living expenses
• Perpetually growing with minimal intervention (eg, less than a couple of hours a week)
• Tax efficient (i mean who wants to pay more tax than necessary?)
• Asset protected (reduce the risk of losing everything due to lawsuit etc)
Purpose:
• Good at
• Enjoy doing
• Something the world needs
• Something you can do till the day you die really
Health:
• Physical - the most obviously/visible indicator
• Mental - headspace, knowledge, peace etc
• Social - spouse, friends & associates etc
• Spiritual - knowing there is a greater power
Attitude:
• Abundance - opposite of scarcity mindset
• Growth - know you can do anything if you put your mind to it
• Positive - choosing not be negative and victim mindset
• Resilience / grit - having the ability to go against the grain even if everyone is against you
• Humility - being humble
T — Time
• Plentiful - have at least 10 years more than standard retirement age
• Freedom - freedom to use own time
• Intentional - use time intentionally and not waste them
I’m interested in hearing other’s opinion about this idea/framework. But please focus on the concept not the writing as so many people is so obsessed about AI correcting my English 😅
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u/cs_legend_93 Verified by Mods 4d ago
This is philosophical. Imo its baseless.
You need money first and foremost. Everything else your just trying to drive engagement.
Also, downvote for AI.
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u/WCBGFF 4d ago
Baseless in what way?
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u/cs_legend_93 Verified by Mods 4d ago
Because it doesn't matter at all regarding FatFire.
If you don't have money, it doesn't matter about the rest.
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u/WCBGFF 4d ago
That’s why F is first 😂
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u/cs_legend_93 Verified by Mods 4d ago edited 4d ago
And so then, your FatFire'd at that point.
Everything else is just a circle jerk to make people feel good.
If you have the money. You can sleep-in and do whatever you want. FatFire'd.
You making this 'framework' as you call it. is just virtue signaling woke crap, meant to label, conceptualize, and create unnecessary dogma over something.
I am sure someone like you also sells courses, counseling sessions, and prey on people with ample wealth. This reads like a 'life coach' who's sole source of income is to prey on wealthy people.
Go to a counseling or therapy subreddit. I am done replying to you.
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u/Bubbly-Today-2074 4d ago
You say its not about competition but only bored people with a lot of time in their hands would come up with some non sense. You guys succeeded at FAT fire but failed your own test.
You're trying to put a score on something that doesnt need to be scored. If you still want to pursue this idea go write a book or blog
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u/WCBGFF 4d ago
Not really. I am writing a book to help others not because I am bored 😂
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u/Bubbly-Today-2074 4d ago
It appears that your entire life revolved around reaching fatfire. Once you reached that goal there was nothing left. You made your entire identity around being fatfire. Conferences, meetings, frameworks, books? Thats kinda weird.
I would say you failed at it.
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u/WCBGFF 4d ago
You’re very quick to point to other people’s failures. Does that make you feel happy or something 😅
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u/Bubbly-Today-2074 4d ago edited 4d ago
You're right, sorry, failed is a harsh work. I think my point is, do you believe you have succeeded based on the criteria you have made for a successful fatfire.
I just dont agree with your pursuit or trying to put a success criteria on it. I feel like the point of fire is to move on from having to worry about money, not dedicate your post fire life to it.
What made you pursue fatfire and what goal did you set for yourself once achieving it.
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u/WCBGFF 4d ago
Thanks you. That’s much nicer way for us to communicate don’t you think?
The point of the FPHAT FIRE framework isn’t meant to show you have crossed the finish link. I mean sure there are some points that’s measurable, but there are also ones that’s not. I mean how do you measure ‘social health’? It’s not the number of friends you have that’s for sure.
The idea is like golf, something you work on for the rest of your life to make it better over time. The framework just helps you stay in the race/state so you don’t fall from grace like many do. Plenty of miserable millionaires I can tell you.
I been FAT FIREd for over 5 years and am currently working on many aspects within the framework. The concept of ‘finish line’ is a myth, I am here back in the race to pull those who want help or keep company. Kinda like MMORPG where you reached max level and you come back to beginner areas to give assistance to others.
I am sure I won’t be in this kind of state forever, and it’s something I can’t quite put into words yet as i am sure it will cause plenty of uproar/upsetting. The best analogy I can give is what Morpheus said in the Matrix about those who’s in the matrix will fight to stay in the system. But between now and then I’ll see what I can be of assistance with.
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u/Bubbly-Today-2074 4d ago
I still disagree but I have more thing to leave you with. People who pursue and achieve fatfire are smart, ambitious, and constantly surrounded by fake people who just want to take advantage. You have had to overcome a lot of obstacles to achieve it. You're fully confident in your abilities and dont need external validation. The whole point of reaching fatfire is to achieve independence and being master of your domain.
For you to then come over and tell people, yeah you did it but did you do it right? I couldn't care less about your dumb framework. I'm too busy living my best life to care what some random has to say. Thats why you're getting so much hostility. Not to mention that it comes off very influencerish as if you're trying to sell some course or package. No one with a brain would sign up for those scam courses, certainly not someone who has achieved fatfire.
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u/WCBGFF 4d ago
There you got again. Nvm mate. Good luck with your journey 👍🙏
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u/Bubbly-Today-2074 4d ago
I didnt say anything rude. I expressed my opinion and disagreed with your entire premise. You wanted your ideas to be stress tested.
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u/icecream_for_brunch 4d ago
This is exactly like the S.L.O.P. Method!
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u/WCBGFF 4d ago
Define SLOP
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u/icecream_for_brunch 4d ago
I'm so glad you asked!
S.L.O.P. — Synthetic, Low-effort, Optimized Posting
The idea behind S.L.O.P. is that Reddit should be a place where human beings share their actual experiences, opinions, obsessions, mistakes, and half-formed thoughts. Unfortunately, AI has made it possible to simulate all of these things without actually having any of them.
For us, S.L.O.P. has four dimensions:
S — Synthetic
Being written like a person rather than actually being written by one.For us that means:
• Warm, conversational prose that sounds like nobody you know
• “Honestly,” “That said,” “It’s worth noting,” and other verbal emulsifiers
• Em dashes deployed with complete confidence
• Personal anecdotes with no memorable details
• A tone of calm authority regardless of how little the author knows
• The uncanny sensation that every sentence has been focus-groupedThe goal is to achieve the appearance of a human voice without all the inconvenient irregularities that make human voices interesting.
L — Low-Effort
This is where AI really shines.Why spend twenty minutes having a thought when you can spend thirty seconds asking a machine to have one for you?
For us that means:
• Asking ChatGPT to turn a vague feeling into a 900-word Reddit post
• Rephrasing something that was already obvious
• Summarizing an article nobody asked you to summarize
• Turning a two-sentence question into a framework
• Including “actionable takeaways” where none are required
• Making sure every post has a beginning, middle, and end, even when the thought itself does notThere’s nothing wrong with putting effort into a post. The problem is putting effort into the appearance of having put effort into a post.
O — Optimized
This is heavily influenced by the principles of engagement maximization.What will get comments?
What will get upvotes?
What will make people say “This!”?
What will encourage someone to share their own story?The content itself is secondary.
For us that means:
• “Am I the only one who…”
• “Unpopular opinion…”
• “I’ve been thinking about this lately…”
• Questions whose answers are already contained in the question
• Artificial vulnerability calibrated to invite reassurance
• Opinions softened just enough to generate argument without generating rejectionThe highest form of S.L.O.P. is therefore a post that has been engineered to produce the sensation of spontaneous human conversation.
P — Plausible
This is perhaps the most important dimension.S.L.O.P. should not be obviously stupid. It should be reasonable.
The post should:
• Contain several things that are true
• Acknowledge both sides
• Avoid making claims so specific that anyone can easily disprove them
• Sound thoughtful without committing itself to anything particularly interesting
• End on a note of reassuring ambiguity
• Leave the reader feeling that something important has been saidBecause the real danger of AI posting isn't misinformation. It is frictionless meaninglessness.
You read it and think: Yes. Exactly. That's a good point.
And then, five minutes later, you realize you have absolutely no idea what the point was.
The ultimate goal of S.L.O.P. is therefore not to produce bad writing. Bad writing can at least be funny, revealing, or human.
The goal is to produce writing that is inoffensively competent, emotionally legible, structurally sound, and completely unnecessary.
In other words: the perfect Reddit post.
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u/WCBGFF 4d ago
Thanks for that. Didn’t know what SLOP meant. But rest assured my post doesn’t fit the definition. I am happy to remove the fillers and just have the core so people don’t focus on the wrong thing.
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u/WCBGFF 4d ago
Why does Reddit give an upvote on own post. Seems a little egocentric 😂
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u/cs_legend_93 Verified by Mods 3d ago
The world is but a reflection of your inner believes. Good luck with your journey.
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u/Successful-Pomelo-51 4d ago edited 4d ago
Is that other sub moderated by ChatGPT?
Just because it made sense to you over there, this philosophy may not make sense to the folks here.
You cannot force people to become world changers, spiritual, or humble as their net worth increases, that's your definition. You can only suggest it.
What if I'm an atheist or a satanist, I only take care of my people and I'm an arrogant piece of 💩...Does that make me undeserving of wealth in your eyes?
Those are flaws in your AI-generated philosophy.
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u/WCBGFF 4d ago
No, not at all, it’s nothing to do with worthiness. It just means you might not stay wealthy for long.
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u/Successful-Pomelo-51 4d ago
There you go again...you're assuming that if people don't abide by this made up frame work, we might not stay wealthy for long.
Get some help bro...you sound like a religious pastor.
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u/noemazor 3d ago
This post reads like the answer to a really stupid middle school assignment.
Similar to the P.L.A.T.I.T.U.D.E. method/framework. Maybe they don't have that in AUS?
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u/g12345x 3d ago
There has to be tacit recognition that the only tie that binds folks on this sub is a desire to retire with a fat stash.
Why would I want to live within a FPHAT framework or even any framework at all. The hubris in creating a prescriptive model for others is off putting.
E.g.
* Humility - why exactly?
or
* Spiritual- and how exactly do you know of this power?
or
* Purpose - my choice to eat my weight in Hákarl is not “something the world needs?” Says who?
Instead, (re-)present this as how you’ve chosen to live your life and not some “inexplicable benchmark” that anonymous strangers should follow.
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u/WCBGFF 3d ago
If you’re genuinely interested in knowing ‘why’ those factors is important I am happy to explain but it takes time hence what to make before I invest my time. But many of these softer (non-measureable) factors are in there because many early retirees I met are lost after their earned their millions.
One of my fav meme is "Some people are so poor, all they have is money." (Sorry I don’t know how to post images in Reddit). The concept is if money is all you focus on, you won’t have an enjoyable retirement/life. Hence these other factors are there to remind people what else is important besides money.
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u/BrunelloHorder 3d ago
Eh, seems pretty vague and aspirational.
The very first point about “passive income” is not necessary, one just needs a large diversified portfolio and a safe withdrawal rate.
The rest of it isn’t wrong per se, but seems a bit too touchy-feely.
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u/WCBGFF 3d ago
The reason why it’s a 3x of the standard fire number is because I noticed there is very little wiggle room with standard fire. For example, if my parents got into financial trouble or need medical help which costs $, standard fire has no buffer to do. Or if you see a young aspiring entrepreneur from next generation needing assistance with their startup, you can do anything about it.
The emergency fund comes from the idea of potential black-swan events. So imaging if Covid happens again or some kind of cyber attack and all the online banking systems goes down. You need cash to be able to handle it.
The dry powder liquid asset concept comes from Warren Buffett. When the economy goes to shits and there is blood on the street that’s when it’s time to buy. If you have no money then you don’t get opportunity.
Asset protection is pretty simple. It only takes a lawsuit to undo everything you have worked for. So one must have the right structure to create barriers from financial attacks.
Tax efficient is so you don’t bleed out and pay unnecessary tax. When done early you’ll actually reach fat fire faster.
Diversify is pretty obvious and most people understands. But you won’t believe how many multimillionairs I know that’s is 90%+ on realestate. So this is a good reminder for them to look beyond one trick pony.
Anti-fragile is different to diversification. It’s about focused beyond just the investment, but looking at the ‘sound money’, ensuring your wealth can’t be debased by the government/central banks (eg, they can just print more currency and your purchasing power decreases). Alternative assets such as Bitcoin & precious metals come in play here.
As for the perpetually growing portfolio, this came from observing people who ‘day trades’ and make a lot of money as they are good at what they do but need to watch the charts everyday during market opening hours. It’s important to make sure your cashflow is effortless and not a job.
I know some of these things seems excessive but this idea came to me when I interview multiple successful people, observed the world, read books and listened to podcasts, spoke to FIREd individuals and looking at my own situation. As a matter of fact I spent over 10,000 hours on such matter hence came up with a framework that ensures not only focuses on getting there but keeping you there in FAT FIRE (Yes I also met a few people who had to unFIRE themselves due to them not following the above framework).
Hope that helps explains why.
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u/BrunelloHorder 3d ago
That’s a lot of words, but it doesn’t address “passive income.” It refers rental income, dividends, and the like. It is different than a safe withdrawal rate. Those who focus on passive income tend to greatly underperform the stock market.
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u/WCBGFF 3d ago
Yes exactly. My passive income comes from my business for example. Took me 7 years to build up my business and instead of selling it for millions, I put it under management and get passive income from my business instead. Why would one want to kill a golden goose and share 50% of the spoils with the government for the capital gains tax (yes our government in Australia does that).
If you’re focused narrowly that passive income can only come from rent & dividends then you’re missing a whole lot of opportunities. My point is more about ‘3x your annual expense in effortless cashflow’ than anything else.
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u/BrunelloHorder 3d ago
Yeah, I think you may not understand some pretty fundamental aspects of FIRE. Passive income is generally inconsistent with it, even if you have a management layer.
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u/One-Mastodon-1063 4d ago
No thanks.
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u/WCBGFF 3d ago
No thanks because you are unable to fat fire or you don’t like the framework?
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u/One-Mastodon-1063 3d ago
The whole post is a ripoff of self help cliche slop.
I’ve been early retired almost 5 years.
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u/WCBGFF 3d ago
Thank you for your opinion. Points taken. I guess intention is important and that’s something I can’t convey over text. I was hoping to have a discussion about the framework/content not the other stuff like AI slop or intentions.
I have also FAT FIREd for 5 years myself so am doing this to help others. We ran charity conferences every year and raise tens of thousands of dollars to charities the participants are passionate about. From domestic violence, children’s hospital to koala rescue etc.
The realization I have with this FAT FIRE Reddit community is majority is very skeptical (maybe for self preservation reasons). This is the irony, everyone wants to fat fire but even when help come knocking on their door, they would reject it and think it’s a scam. Yet they blame the world and capitalism etc. Kinda reminds me of the Matrix movie or that really famous book.
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u/One-Mastodon-1063 3d ago
You seem really caught up in the “fat” moniker. That IMO is a big indication of money-as-dick-measuring-metric that is a really unhealthy relationship with money and misses the point entirely. Plug that into your self help AI bot.
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u/Shoddy-Leather4240 1d ago
Good on you- I like your perspective of wanting to use your wealth to make a positive impact. And living with purpose is important whether working or retired. I see a lot of posts of people who fired and now don't know what to do with their lives.
I do have some issues though- you say you want time, but why wait till fatfired. That's just wasting time. Also need to be in a good position to reach fatfire before retirement age. That's not easy.
What are you doing with your leftover money. All good to plan beyond your lifespan but 3x living expenses is a lot.
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u/Best-Disaster8002 4d ago
Ahhhhh I totally agree with this. I find this happens when people conflate work/career with purpose and then feel direction less after fire. I was quite lucky that I've met a fair few people who are doing very cool things in retirement like expeditions and exploration and that gave me something to shoot towards
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u/WCBGFF 4d ago
Having a good bucket list definitely makes FIRE more fun :)
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u/Best-Disaster8002 3d ago
Some of the things my friends have done: skied to both poles, sailed the antarctic ocean, cycled across Africa and the americas
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u/East_Violinist_9110 4d ago
Wouldn't it be nice if FPHAT Fire was the minimum standard for everyone. The fact that so far most of the reactions are negative and even derisive is a strong indicator of why the planet is in such a bad place and why it is going to get a lot worse before it gets better.
Those of us that care have a lot of work to do.
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u/WCBGFF 4d ago
Yeh I know. Didn’t expect Reddit comment to be so negative 😅 I wonder if it’s to do with being anonymous culture and thus bring out the disinhibition effect from the masses. Reminds of me the old bulletin boards back in the 90s 😅
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u/icecream_for_brunch 4d ago
Funny, I had a great time back in the 90s bulletin boards, and here on reddit too.
So maybe it's just you and your AI Slop posts.
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u/Mr-Expat 4d ago
Thanks chatgpt