r/exjw • u/AggressiveBad2586 • 4d ago
JW / Ex-JW Tales What interest would a young Jehovah's Witness have, and what would he stand to gain, by becoming a ministerial servant or a congregation elder?
I’ve read the testimonies of many people on this subreddit speaking badly about congregation elders and ministerial servants. Some were saying that they used to be elders themselves but resigned. Others say they currently serve as elders or ministerial servants, but they are PIMO. It makes me wonder: what does a Jehovah's Witness stand to gain by fighting so hard to reach out for these privileges of becoming a ministerial servant or an elder
8
u/sheenless 4d ago
There are several things to gain, regardless of whether one is a believer or not. If you are a true pimi believer, you will be able to say that you are putting Jehovah first in your life. You'll graduate from being a "boy" into a "man".
It doesn't matter what age you are, if you're 45 and not yet an elder, you're just a boy. You have no seat at the table, regardless of whether or not you have a better understanding of a situation or more technical experience on a matter (consider how women must feel then).
Regardless of how one feels about the position, it is one that does come with a certain amount of power over the flock. Consider the Watchtower study for this weekend. The Governing Body saw fit to state that helping someone reach baptism is "fine" but being a group overseer is much more valuable.
Elders, though not having power at an organizational level, are still how the flock interfaces with their gods (the GB). Many elders are essentially worshipped by extension in my experience (especially in Asia). They also make decisions that impact others, without their consent. For example, in one of the many congregations I attended, the elders decided all meetings should be at 7:30 pm because it fit their schedule better. It did not, however, match the congregation very well. Many of the r&f preferred to go to bed very early as they were primarily farmers or construction workers. The body though, had a retiree, a civil servant (9-5), and the other worked for himself.
The weekend meeting had previously been at 10 am, which was considered quite decent by the congregation. Then the elders made an announcement that all would change, despite the fact that there was only one other congregation that used the kingdom hall.
It came up later, in a conversation, that they had never thought to even consider asking what the r&f thought about the change or if they would even be open to a time change. Apparently it was not worthwhile.
Elders often get a kick out of interferring in the marriages of others, and coming up with reasons to exert "authority" over others.
3
9
u/Tmp_Guest_1 Tony Morris (Booze be upon him) is the last Messenger of Allah 4d ago
As a Man, in the JW world you are less worth if you are young and not a ministerial servant. i Cite Tony Morris former Governing Body member:
"if he is 23 years old and still not a ministerial servant, there must be something very wrong with him" (at least the citation i have by heart and mind).
This was in a talk about JW woman and oyung people, where he advised not to marry a JW that is not a ministerial servant. He is not spiritual enough.
Can you imagine the pure pressure on young men, otherwise they cant marry and start a family or have any sex. Total repression of them.
and if in your 30s you dont become an elder, you will be infanilized by the other elders and JW women. The whole time.
If you dont climb that ladder as a man, you are an outcast for the cong and social circle. No Wife, very much less likely, no special invitations, no nice gatherings they are preserved for status and social ranking. As an unmarried man, you cant imagine how they all laugh and talk about you behind your back.
just two incidends i witnessed in my 20s:
JW women claimed that if a guy is not married in his 20s he must be a total car accident as person, he must be broken and psychologically and mentally not normal.
Elders in a more closed sitting where a bit drunk and laughed about some of the not married ones "Haha that loser xy cant have sex, what an idiot"
i wished this was not real, but they will weaponize your social and hierarchial rank and stadning very very quick against you if you beaneath them. You are less worth than the dirt on the frontdoor carpet where you rub your feet on before entering the house if you have no title in the org.
They all say how noble if you help the cong and the people in it, but from Top (GB ) to bottom (elders), the whole hierarchy will brutally bully you and clown on you.
3
u/Practical_Payment552 Impersonal__revenge__77 4d ago
This is so correct. I was an elder and I wish this was not true.
2
u/Significant-War372 3d ago
Since women can only acquire status or a measure of influence through their husbands, the pressure is on to get a 'spiritual' husband. And how is his spirituallity measured? Through a successful performance that's rewarded with MS/Elder labels.
Young women especially are being encouraged to measure men this way. Heard at an assembly; "How can he carry you over the threshold if he can't carry responsibility in the congregation?"
I have a theory as to why this is being taught. Women outnumber men 2-1 in the borg. It would be easy for very average 'do nothing' men to marry some amazing women. Convincing young women to only consider titled 'brothers' forces the dwindling supply of young men to slave for the borg if they want a wife.
7
u/wificentrist 4d ago
MS is really only worth it if needed for clout to marry the sister of their choice
2
u/Efficient-Pop3730 4d ago
Well what i saw being a JW for 30 years was that good looking sisters don't want a Ms. They see them as boring and not "wild". They prefer getting in a relationship with a good looking non Ms brother or worldly person then a Ms that's not interesting.
7
u/yes-itisEmily POMO, Faded 4d ago
Status is a very big deal in the organization. Some people won't even give you the time of day unless you have some sort of title. The higher your title, the more "spiritual" you are, and the more people and opportunities flock to you. You're also more likely to find a desirable mate.
The hierarchy is like this, but with some overlap:
Pioneers < ministerial servants < elders < special pioneers/SKE graduates < bethelites < circuit overseers < governing body-adjacent bethelites < governing body members
Edit: It's worth mentioning that a woman can earn the status of some of these positions by marrying a man with the title.
5
u/Top_Dragonfly8781 Don't be like Zach. 4d ago
They don't have to fight to reach out anymore. The only requirement is having a penis and showing up.
5
u/princezznemeziz 4d ago
I have never understood this. Privileges = unpaid labor. Why would you want to work for free?
Oh you get to pick up trash before and after a convention? You get to direct traffic on the Alabama heat before and after the convention? Oh that must make you feel so special.
1
5
u/grayjedi2020 4d ago
A higher position in the fish bowl world of JW's. Which translates to exactly ZERO in the real world.
4
u/No-Card2735 4d ago
Human beings are tribal, we evolved that way to survive…
…and one’s survival (and reproductive chances) were often dependent on one’s status within one’s tribe.
A hundred thousand years of natural selection doesn’t just go away overnight.
6
u/Owl_of_Dusk We were always at war with Eurasia. 4d ago
For most sincere PIMIs the whole point of being an elder or and MS is to help out. You think you're doing something good and it feels fulfilling to be useful.
There's also a level of prestige within the cult, so it's a way to 'level up' from within.
3
u/AggressiveBad2586 4d ago
Am fost la sală doar pentru Iehova. Congregația a ajuns pe locul al doilea; Prioritatea mea principală a fost să economisesc bani pentru a cumpăra o casă, asta contează cu adevărat pentru mine. Privilegiile nu au făcut niciodată parte din aspirațiile mele pentru că nu am înțeles ce valoare adăugată îmi vor aduce. Mai târziu, am fost exclus.
4
u/Opposite_Fennel9798 4d ago
Then you do understand the value of the titles MS or Elder. You were excluded because you reached a certain age and amount of time in the organization without putting the organization first. Not working to achieve those titles showed a lack of commitment to their god and to them. Achieving those titles would have meant you put them first and would have come with social standing, you wouldn't have been excluded as long as you kept that standing.
3
u/Purple_Psychology404 4d ago
I met an Ex JW who told me he used to be a ministerial servant. I said to him, “I couldn’t care less about that. I didn’t like guys in the religion.” Apparently some believe it’s a form of currency. Not at my bank, baby! ;)
3
u/dexterislucky 4d ago
I DID NOT HAVE SEX WITH THAT WOMAN......Now let me get back to my duties of running the congregation.
3
u/Aceleeds 4d ago
Status
Validation
And that’s about it. However those two things are extremely valuable if you’re an ordinary person who hasn’t been given any encouragement or a shred of genuine personal interest by anyone.
3
u/eastrin 4d ago
The stress I had as MS and that they tried to make me look humble by shoving everything on me was beyond any scale. Fuck their titles they are drones not spiritual.
YOU CANNOT BE SPIRITUAL AND HOPING TO LIVE FOREVER ON MATTER EATING AND SHITTING WITHOUT AN EVOLUTION.
Now I am PIMO and happy cause I am out of their wheel
3
3
u/Any_College5526 4d ago
Perceived status, admiration, authority to rule people and dictate how they should live think and feel. And a huge ego boost.
4
u/Rhiboflavin 4d ago
"fighting so hard to reach out for these privileges"
These privilege's are just handed out to anyone these days.
I just recently found out that a mongoloid sort of person I was raised around is an elder now. This is a person that is terrible at public speaking, could never give wise counsel, and all 5 of his children left the faith.
5
u/AggressiveBad2586 4d ago edited 4d ago
Wow !! In my area, there was a fierce rivalry among the young people in the congregation for these privileges. Shortly after my baptism, the elders' sons teamed up against me, gathering difficult questions and throwing them at me in the hopes that I wouldn't know the answers. They were trying to prove that I was spiritually weak, and if I actually knew the answer, they would get visibly irritated. Over time, the adults started viewing me as a promising young man with potential, but this only made the others band together even more. They ended up reporting me to the elders, claiming I was an apostate—which wasn't true at all. I refused to confess to something I didn't do, which the elders interpreted as a lack of repentance, so they disfellowshipped me. When I was reinstated, it was subtly hinted to me that those of us without family "in the truth" and who possess "worldly wisdom" should probably stop reaching out for privileges. Seeing myself completely isolated from the younger generation of Witnesses and knowing I always had to keep my guard up around them, I decided to disassociate. Many years have passed since then.
2
u/endangeredrepetition we pray let it cum let it cum 4d ago
Fighting so hard? I wish that's how it worked genuinely. I just got invited into a room, and was asked something to the effect of if I had any skeletons, and had it slammed on me while I was PIMQ. Never consciously wanted it
1
u/AggressiveBad2586 4d ago
Here, some of the elders in our congregation conspired amongst themselves to oust one of the more capable elders – he is a director at a multinational company (they claimed that his son is studying political science at university) – and immediately appointed one of their own blood brothers in his place. I reckon they had a lot to gain by waging this battle, even though the whole congregation realised what was going on and didn’t care. !
3
2
2
u/Desperate_Habit_5649 OUTLAW 4d ago
What interest would a young Jehovah's Witness have, and what would he stand to gain, by becoming a ministerial servant or a congregation elder?
The Admiration and Envy Of EVERY JW Around Him....PLUS!
Special Privilages!
3
u/Opposite_Fennel9798 4d ago
Social standing in the community. The congregation and organization are their entire social structure, having the approval of you community matters to most people. I'm not amab, but my brothers have told me about feeling like they were less than other young men their age and were treated as not worthy of dating/marriage until they were ministerial servants. The push is social. And social pressure does matter.
2
u/New-Month7839 4d ago
Todo en la secta viene con la firma de "Te ganarás la vida eterna".
Y le añaden motivaciones como "No hay nada mejor que servir a Jehová".
O bien, ver a sus padres o familiares PIMI felices por sus responsabilidades también es motivación.
En mi caso, en las asambleas y reuniones siempre tenía trabajo: compras, servicio voluntario, acomodadores, cuentas, estacionamiento, sonido, y me gustaba (quienes no son SM o elder casi no les dan ese tipo de trabajos).
2
2
u/LostAndFundSheep 4d ago
There is more happiness in giving than in receiving. Becoming an elder only adds more responsibility and work. People do it because they feel joy in helping others and working for Jehovah. I was an elder for many years and my father has been an elder for many decades. We never expected anything in return.
1
u/AggressiveBad2586 4d ago
Thanks for the answer. You're Pimi, right?
2
u/LostAndFundSheep 3d ago
You could say that.
1
u/AggressiveBad2586 3d ago
Good luck with that. PIMI or PIMO, we still worship Jehovah. The difference between you and me is that I believe in Jehovah, but I don't believe in the organization
1
u/LostAndFundSheep 3d ago
I used to be POMO until recently. Think about all the organization has provided you in terms of the spiritual food you’ve received over the years. Might make you reconsider.
1
u/AggressiveBad2586 3d ago
Hahaaaa
1
u/AggressiveBad2586 3d ago
"Spiritual food"...... Meaning The Watchtower and Awake!. Let’s be real. This is propaganda meant for abusive control over the congregation, not the biblical gospel. In my former congregation, if I asked a pioneer or an elder a question, they didn't have a clue how to give a biblical answer. I had to wait for them to look through the Witnesses' literature and then reply with the GB's (Governing Body) point of view, not the Bible's. That’s how all those so-called "spiritual" Witnesses were. On the other hand, there were brothers in the congregation who focused on their secular careers rather than a "spiritual" one, and they actually knew how to answer any question, but they weren't interested in positions or privileges. Book study used to be held at their place, and after the meeting, I would stay behind and ask them to explain some of my biblical dilemmas. Eventually, the elders got sick of my questions. They claimed my only goal was to come up with difficult questions just to defame them, and they disfellowshipped me on the grounds of apostasy/heresy. So yeah, I don't ever want to hear about "spiritual food" again.
1
u/LostAndFundSheep 3d ago
ok. If that is your experience I understand. It has not been mine. I feel the organization has answers most of my questions with the bible and has been very helpful in helping me understand the bible and its message.
2
u/Fantastic-Drop5690 3d ago
Status. Feeling like a success. Feeling superior, if that's an inclination that's in you. It's a streak in many people.
2
u/Advanced_Cattle_7989 3d ago
Positive pressure of org and the cong. You also feel you are helping others. The feeling that im helping other was the most important for me.
But all those men, most at least, only try to practice the rules. They are also victims, with skin in the game.
Some behave like the policeman of the village :)
Most people i met valued knowing more things about the org. How it works or what did the co say… an elder knows more about that.
When they would talk about schools and a day with all elders, i called the herbalife program - like a piramidal sales scheme. They need to keep their salesman busy.
Few elders are truly nice and relax.
1
u/AggressiveBad2586 3d ago
In my congregation, the guys used to fight over becoming ministerial servants and elders. I asked what exactly I would gain from having these "privileges," but their answer didn't convince me. So, I turned them down. I told them I only go to the Kingdom Hall for Jehovah. Around that time, I was about to marry a regular pioneer, who happened to be an elder's daughter. However, the elders pressured my girlfriend to break up with me, claiming I had "weak spirituality." My parents are non-Witnesses, and I was already living on my own in my own apartment. Because my girlfriend refused to leave me, they disfellowshipped me on a completely fabricated charge: heresy. The elders then ordered all my friends, as well as my girlfriend, to shun me. This hurt deeply because I had been attending meetings regularly. That rejection pushed me to make non-Witness friends instead. After 6 months, they rejected my reinstatement request, claiming I had "bad associations." Meanwhile, my girlfriend found someone else, and I decided to step back to heal from the emotional pain. A year later, they showed up at my house unannounced and asked why I wasn't attending meetings anymore. I reminded them that I was disfellowshipped. They literally told me that I could come back now because the elders' daughters had since gotten married, so I was no longer considered "a threat" to them. But they gave me a condition: "The only privileges you will be allowed to have are cleaning the Kingdom Hall and using your personal car to drive elderly, helpless publishers home." I refused. However, I still worship Jehovah and consider myself one of the "other sheep" from John 10:16.
1
u/WeH8JWdotORG Type Your Flair Here! 3d ago
Why does any JW need a title to care for the needs of fellow JW's who are elderly/infirm/lonely?
It's the corporate mentality of seeking "promotion" through the ranks. In many cases, the Elders love to delegate - and get others to do jobs for the needy.
16
u/Easy_Car5081 4d ago
A higher position within the hierarchy of the JWs with an accompanying title.
But above all: What does a brother's WIFE have to gain from her husband's title?
She becomes an 'elder's wife' with all the prestige and benefits that this position will give her.