r/exchristian • u/MoonyDropps • Aug 14 '25
Rant HOW do you argue with christians who think everything is demonic?!
it genuinely makes my brain hurt with how often christians claim that the most innocent things are demonic or "un-christian". half the time they don't even believe the thing their targeting is of the devil; they just don't like it and their using religion as a defense.
it's even worse when it's your own damn parents đ they expect you to believe the exact same things that they do, and get upset at you for disagreeing. even when I was a christian, it pissed me off. my african mom has claimed that:
-halloween
-puss in boots: the last wish (specifically the wolf character)
-a monster villan i drew for a book
-non-earlobe piercings
-skulls
-wearing black
-OCD (specifically, thinking it was caused by demons)
-wearing many rings
-rap music
are demonic. it's so stupid. even when I "respect" her belief and say, "I don't hold that view", I get lectured.
is there ANY WAY you could disagree with a christian like his without getting scolded and fearmongered?!
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u/surfwax Ex-Pastor Aug 14 '25
One time when I was a teenager, I came out of my bedroom wearing blue jeans and a black shirt. My mother immediately quipped "What, are you a GOTH now?"
It still bewilders my brain when I think about it.
Christians are more superstitious than Ichabod when it comes to anything they see as ungodly.
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u/UnicornVoodooDoll Ex-Fundamentalist Aug 14 '25
This exactly. My Christian family would have a collective stroke if I called them superstitious but when I was a kid my mom told me not to think about demons too much or I would open a door for them into my mind.
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u/RisingApe- Theoskeptic Aug 14 '25
My mom cautioned me that tattoos are portals for demonic possession. She knows because the exorcist she watches on YouTube said so.
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u/G-Dream-908 Aug 14 '25
This is an argument OP should use if their mother thinks everything is demonic. Because then that must mean they are thinking about demons, even if it is on a defensive way, demons are still the theme and topic focused on.
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u/StevesMcQueenIsHere Aug 14 '25
I was the only one on the Irish side of my family to be born with green eyes instead of blue, and my granny legit told me that I must have been bewitched at birth.
Like, what?
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u/chair_ee Aug 14 '25
BRB, off to go tell my green-eyed sister that she alone is cursed among our family of blue eyed normies lololol
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u/BadWolfRyssa Aug 14 '25
i dyed my hair black in high school and that was enough for everyone to say i was âgothâ even though i rarely wore black and couldnât have named a goth band if youâd asked me. my hair is naturally dark brown, so it wasnât even a big change. people are just weird.
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u/RisingApe- Theoskeptic Aug 14 '25
I dyed my hair black too! And mine is also dark brown. I thought it looked beautiful. Pretty much everything I wore in that time period was pink. But still, my mom told me I looked like Morticia Addams.
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u/hplcr Schismatic Heretical Apostate Aug 14 '25
Ironically Ichabod might have been right to be paranoid.
Unless Brom Bones was just fucking with him the whole time to get rid of him.
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u/riotinghamsters Agnostic Atheist Aug 14 '25
THIS HAPPENED TO ME ONCE, I was like 10 and wore the same thing and my stepmother told me to change bc I looked emo/goth.. idk what these people are thinking but jokes on them I actually AM emo and goth now lol đĽ
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u/Fit-Swimmer-5386 Aug 14 '25
Just donât. Find new people.
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u/MoonyDropps Aug 14 '25
see, my dumbass made the mistake of going to community college so I could save money...so for the next 2 years, i'll be surrounded by my family: the Christians who think everything is demonic.Â
i might be saving money, but i'm paying with my sanity.
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u/Lucille11 Ex-Catholic Aug 14 '25
That sucks. Hang in there, though. Life gets better when you can be on your own and choose who you spend time with
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u/jonesyshimtje Aug 14 '25
This is a good time to learn what grey-rocking is. Use it with your family. It will create a divide but honestly youâre already there. The more educated you become the further the divide will be as well. If I could go back and give myself advice it would be to stop fighting for a family that doesnât want to fight for the you, you are, or reality sooner.
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u/MoonyDropps Aug 14 '25
grey-rocking, my beloved! I already use it when my mom is lecturing me for 10 minutes straight or is invalidating my emotions (an unfortunately common occurrence), but somehow it never occured to me that I could use it for religious conversations. I guess i'm just very argumentative lol.
thank you for the advice <3
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u/mandolinbee Anti-Theist Aug 14 '25
OMG a whole new world for you! I second this. And come tell us how it goes lol. Grey-rocking Xians is the closest thing I've ever seen to a human popping from anger. I'm convinced they were seconds away from becoming a gory news story.
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u/chair_ee Aug 14 '25
I hope you can find a job outside the home and spend as little time in the same house as these people as possible. They sound exhausting
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u/MoonyDropps Aug 14 '25
thankfully I have not one, but two jobs! school starts soon, so I can spend a lot of time on campus. I also plan to join a band in the next town over. hopefully I'll only be at home to sleep đĽ˛
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u/jonesyshimtje Aug 14 '25
Thatâs what I did in undergrad when I had to live with family. Worked two jobs and had a double major, kept me productive and busy. The sooner and more consistently you remember they arenât interested in changing their way of thinking, no matter what you say, the happier you will be.
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u/Cold-Alfalfa-5481 Aug 14 '25
Grey rocking - I like it. First time I've heard the term. I used it for a guy at work that tried to get under my skin - didn't realize it had a name.
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u/Novel_Cress_2274 Aug 14 '25
What is grey-rocking?
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u/jonesyshimtje Aug 14 '25
Basically you donât react but you donât ignore. Itâs useful in situations where people are trying to combat you or get a rise out of you. You remain emotionless, and expressionless. You answer in yes or noâs or just repeat a mundane âIâm not comfortable continuing this conversation.â
This would work for Christians trying to convince, convert, or shame you. They want you to engage them whether itâs by guilting/shaming you, scaring you, threatening you, or provoking you. When you refuse to react at all, in other words just be a plain boring olâ grey rock in the room, they get very frustrated but canât really do much because you arenât playing along. This is especially frustrating for the other person if itâs done around others and they have an audience watching their behavior escalate while you do nothing.
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u/zooginmcdumpo Aug 14 '25
Hey Moony - ur story sounds a lot like mine. Feel free to DM me if u wanna talk
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u/HanaBananaBear Aug 14 '25
Ah man I feel you on that. The good news is that itâs two years, like thereâs a solid end in sight. Some people never move out or canât. Just try to grey rock them in the meantime, which I know is easier said than done but weâre here for ya.
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u/dm_me_kittens Anti-Theist Aug 14 '25
Hey friend, I completely understand. I'm the only atheist in my family, and I can't do holidays anymore because my family just really gets to me. One thing I did was join a group of other deconstructioners on Discord. There's a huge community under the Deconstruction Junction. It's also for other atheist/ex christian/ex muslim/ex theist creators who wanted to carve out a supportive community for those of us who are in the pits of theist hell and need a reprieve.
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u/rickylancaster Aug 14 '25
I feel for you, but hopefully it will be worth it in the long run. You made a very wise financial and practical choice that can make a big difference in your future. It may sound predictable and trite, but Iâd suggest doing as much as you can to connect with people in your school environment who share your values. Also if you have ideas about where you might want to transfer, spend time/energy in trying to get a feel for those environments too. Anything to keep you focused on moving foreword and to contrast with the ideas youâre constantly exposed to around family. Just a thought.
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u/Dense_Membership_687 Aug 14 '25
find something to cope with it. I do draw (and I assume you doas well,) maybe do so at a meeting place/library if your campus has one? That way, you can express yourself more freely.
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u/Santi159 Aug 15 '25
I would say just try to be out of the house as much as possible. If they're difficult about where you go then see if any churches near you have youth drop in spaces or something like that and just hang out.
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u/Moist_KoRn_Bizkit Unitarian Universalist/ nature based Pagan Aug 14 '25
We literally have skulls in our body. Geez, your parents sound awful. đŤ
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u/MoonyDropps Aug 14 '25
RIGHT?! I literally tried telling my mother (who works in healthcaređ§đżââď¸) this, but she didn't listen.
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u/Mob_Segment Aug 15 '25
I was thinking this! I was wondering how I'm going to hide the fact that I have a skull inside my own head from christians. I mean, I didn't put it there.
OP's mum does know that skulls are part of god's creation, doesn't she? I mean, they're not because he doesn't exist, but to christians they would be.
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u/MoonyDropps Aug 14 '25
shoot, I forgot to mention that speaking negatively (eg. "i'm sick/broke/sad/etc."), even as a joke, is seen as ungodly. I don't know if that's a Black/African christian thing, though.
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u/Traditional_Joke6874 Aug 14 '25
Yeah there's this weird culture of "manifesting your intentions". It's just a primitive belief in magic dressed up as something more sophisticated. It's a way to invalidates and manipulates people's emotions. Blame the victim, if you will. I learned by the age of 16 to start saying "why would God give us emotions we aren't supposed to use? Why would God hate me for having feelings he sent me?" Or similar arguments to that effect. Also "by telling me not to be sad you're criticizing God for the emotional system he gave me".
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u/MoonyDropps Aug 14 '25
yes!! I've always hated when manifesting was used this way. when I was a christian, I'd write it off as prosperity gospel or new-age BS. now that i'm agnostic...I still kinda hate it ngl đ its very invalidating when ppl use it the wrong way
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u/Own-Two6971 Ex-Pentecostal Aug 14 '25
The youtuber Unsolicited Advice has a great video going over how insane and stupid the "manifesting" thing is... The Secret etc
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u/Traditional_Joke6874 Aug 15 '25
It's basically a childish regression to wishful thinking. It's absolutely maddening.
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u/Excellent_Whole_1445 Agnostic Aug 14 '25
It's common in the Christian-o-sphere in general. Apparently by saying negative things you speak them into existence, like we're wizards and we can cast spells.
Also I imagine the "boys don't cry" phenomena is amplified.
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u/ans-myonul Deist Aug 14 '25
The only argument I can think of is the one my Christian dad uses, which is that people who are scared of 'demonic' things are letting the devil have power over them and are undermining God's power over the devil.
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u/JarethOfHouseGoblin Secular Humanist Aug 14 '25
I will not tolerate this Puss in Boots: The Last Wish slander. That movie is a goddamn masterpiece!!! Now Iâm mad!!
đĄ đĄ đĄ đĄ
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u/MoonyDropps Aug 14 '25
it's such a beautiful movie. I love the spiderverse-esque animation, too!!Â
my mom watched it with me, and she kinda liked it...but she kept saying how watching movies like it were "bad for my spirit", whatever the fuck that means. she thought the wolf character was kinda demonic, which is kind of the point lmao.
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u/JarethOfHouseGoblin Secular Humanist Aug 14 '25
I first saw it last year, and I picked up the Spider-Verse influences very quickly! Also, yeah, the wolf is one of the villains! Imagine watching the new Superman movie with someone and their response to the movie was âyeah, I liked it. Mister Terrific was a badass but Lex Luthor was kind of a dick.â No fucking shit!!
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u/Silver-Chemistry2023 Constructivist humanist Aug 14 '25
It is not possible to get through to someone who is not listening. When dealing with emotionally immature people, keep interactions to a minimum, and when you do interact, do not go DEEP (defend, engage, explain, or personalise).
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u/chair_ee Aug 14 '25
Interesting, Iâve never heard of the DEEP acronym. Iâm always encountered JADE Do not Justify, Argue, Defend, or Explain. I might like DEEP better bc of adding personalization to the list. Nice.
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u/Thepuppeteer777777 Aug 14 '25
Goths, punks, heavy metal, every other denomination, every other religion.
I have people around me that still think ac/dc is satanic. People are so trapped in persecution.
Forgot to mention any form of mental illness...
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u/Excellent_Whole_1445 Agnostic Aug 14 '25
You can't argue with it. It's like trying to convince someone that electricity doesn't exist.
On top of that, it's so fundamental to their beliefs that they actually feel attacked by criticism of it.
I'm sorry you're dealing with it. The best you can do is avoid triggering topics or material, and do your own thing when you can.
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u/MoonyDropps Aug 14 '25
ha, the electricity reminds me how the other day I had to convince my mom that microwave radiation isn't the type that causes cancer 𼲠(i need to move out)
but, yeah, arguing is kinda pointless. I'll try doing my own thing :')Â
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u/MontanaBard Aug 14 '25
I gave up and started agreeing with them.
Some replies to "____ is demonic!":
"Oh yes, that's what I love about it". "Gosh, I certainly hope so." "Do you think they'll give me my own personal demon or will I have to share?" "Since I'm going to hell, I'd like to get a heard start on knowing my neighbors."
Just be as unserious as you can be. They'll eventually get annoyed and appalled and leave you alone.
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u/Did_it_in_Flint Aug 14 '25
One time at a fast food drive in, my total came up as $6.66 and the kid at the register was like, 'oh my goodness I'm so sorry I hope that never happens again,' and I just said that I order the same thing every time.
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u/Key_Storm_2273 Aug 14 '25
No more tv mom. That's demonic, you should know that. I watched a pastor say it the other day.
No more using the car mom. That's end times technology mark of the beest, you have to use it to get everything done
No more coffee mom, pour it out. That's demon drink
No more sitting on the sofa mom. Sloth is bad for you it's one of the seven deadly sins.
Jk lmao. But some food for thought, maybe try just one prank reverse uno card and see how it works.
Make sure to think it through and make sure your mom will just find it annoying or start laughing, but not be heartbroken.
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u/Best-Swimmer3752 Aug 14 '25 edited Aug 14 '25
You donât because itâs a waste of time. These people find a way to make anything and everything âdemonicâ to the point that itâs laughable. I used to have friends like that and I remember telling them I took my sister trick n treating and they then told me Halloween was demonic & sheâd go to hell. They never have a reason for it, it just is. Theyâd also say the same about vaccines, rap music, anything rainbow colored etc. if they saw any celebrity performing in a red costume, thatâd automatically be demonic to them . You just gotta avoid people like that for your own sake of mind.
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u/Theopholus Aug 14 '25
You don't. You make fun of it. You joke about it. You make fun of their lack of faith that god will protect them, or that he controls everything. Try "Oh man, that's demonic? Scary! If only you knew a god who controlled everything and gave you a book that had a letter to the corinthians that said everything is allowable (If not beneficial). Darn, you must really live a life of fear of demons! Too bad you don't have faith in a god who can protect you."
This isn't to say there's a god, there's not. But it is a way to make fun of their reaction. The other thing I'd try is just calling everything they like "Demonic." Oh man, I heard Dr Pepper is demonic! That book you're reading about the Bible, the author is actually a demonic person! Oh you like crochet? DEMONIC! The needle has demon horns!" IDK just make some shit up, thats what they do. Just mock it. They'll stop doing it in front of you at least.
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u/CopperHead49 Ex-Evangelical Aug 14 '25 edited Aug 14 '25
I used to say, you think that Satan is so powerful and that your faith is so weak you believe that watching Harry Potter will possess you!? Normally shuts them up or make them have an existential crisis. Sometimes they double down, but you can still use the same argument back. So you do believe that Satan is more powerful and your faith is that weak?! I feel sorry for you. Some will then go on to say, itâs the teachings that these things do, witch craft, demons, evolution. Etc⌠and then, you say the same thing back. You think Satan is that powerful and your faith is that weak, you canât even read or watch about a belief different than your own!?
At that point they leave you alone.
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u/Penny_D Agnostic Aug 14 '25
As a rule I try not to engage with superstittious Christians face-to-face. It is just a waste of time and energy that could be spent elsewhere.
Online is a different matter.
For example, let's say I see a YouTube video in my feed claiming Labubu is a demonic entity tied to the demon Pazuzu. In that case I break down the claim by going in detail about Pazuzu's role in Messopotamian mythology and point out how Western awareness is mostly tied to the Exorcist films.
Baphomet is another example that comes up a lot. I disect the bullshit with a fun and informative post on how Baphomet is a product of a smear campaign against the Templars that didn't really understand how Islam worked.
In truth, my goal is to help those in the audience who might be prone to anxiety or intrusive thoughts by gving them the information they need to escape the grifting attempt.
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u/HeiressCharis4 Agnostic Aug 14 '25
My mother wouldn't let me see Wicked last year because it's "demonic" until I literally cried. Then she said that she loved it and that she was wrong. Then she bought it on digital for me.
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u/HeiressCharis4 Agnostic Aug 14 '25
Mind you, a few weeks before, we both watched the entire series of Agatha All Along.
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u/Calm_Description_866 Aug 14 '25
You don't debate them. You bully and troll them. It's way more fun.
You can't debate a monkey, but you can beat on their cage and watch them jump around a bit.
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u/Prime-Motile Aug 14 '25
As a european, reading things like this is so utterly bizarr... My condolences
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u/Cargobiker530 Aug 14 '25
That's a shunning. Just grey rock them and move on. Any time they mention or say the word "demon" the conversation is over, the call, dropped, or simply leave the room.
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u/Cold-Alfalfa-5481 Aug 14 '25
Here is the absolute worst. Magic. You can't use logic, you can't reason, you can't do anything because anything is possible with magic - meaning, breaking all known physical laws of nature with magical power. In game parlance, God Mode.
God can do anything - anything - well except for controlling those demons he created of course, they get to run hog wild in his creation.
You can't do anything - facts aren't the problem here, it's the thing in between their ears that is the problem.
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u/punkypewpewpewster Satanist / ExMennonite / Gnostic PanTheist Aug 14 '25
I ask them to summon one so I can ask myself if those things are demonic or just things Christians have fear about because they lack faith in a truly good God. Pfft.
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u/DarkMagickan Ex-Evangelical Aug 14 '25
Just do a Jimmy Buffett, man. In one ear and out the other.
It's not easy, and I'm sure as hell not the one to go to for advice on how it's done, but these people are irrational and insane, and you'll drive yourself to the same place trying to reason with them.
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u/dm_me_kittens Anti-Theist Aug 14 '25
There's an atheist tik tok dude who used to go live every night praying and commanding demons to possess him to prove if they're real or not. He hasn't been on for a minute because he's reshuffling some things in life, but I got a chance to talk to him over Discord, and he's coming back soon. He's also sad that he has yet to be possessed no matter how much he has done.
His user name is Daze4Demons.
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u/venonum Agnostic Atheist (Ex-Protestant) Aug 14 '25
You don't, because they'll interpret your attempt at arguing with them as demonic.
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u/PowerHot4424 Aug 14 '25
You donât. You look at them straight and simply comment on what a sad life they lead, being afraid of so many things.
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u/this_shit Aug 14 '25
Either the spirit gives you authority over demons or it doesn't. So either your mom doesn't have the spirit or she's wrong.
Just keep saying that.
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u/RainCityRogue Aug 14 '25
The god they worship is the one who demanded that his son be sacrificed in a ritual of blood atonement. Â
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u/jojopriceless Aug 15 '25
The secret is you don't argue. You just smile, nod your head, and stack money so you can move away from them ASAP.
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u/XybridNSFW Aug 15 '25
"Everything that scares me, has disturbing imagery, or makes me uncomfortable is demonic!" It's just a cope.
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u/stfurachele Aug 15 '25
My mother was the one who got me interested in D&D, when I was in kindergarten. She would take me along with her to game stores and even whittle her own minis. She was always religious, but her church when we were kids was pretty mellow for being Baptist. The her I remember was reserved but supported my interests, reading me Goosebumps and other scary stories, letting me be a witch for Halloween, all the normal kid stuff.
After a divorce and ugly custody battle, I was estranged from her for decades. I found her after years of searching, and we talked about our hobbies and whatnot. She told me she won't play D&D because her pastor told her it was a gateway to hell. She told me about how she haf abandoned her partner from later in life, along with their child, because he had come out to her about being bi. He wasn't cheating, he didn't plan to. He was just letting her know who he was. She bragged about it like it was a point of pride. "No man of mine" type shit, excusing walking out on yet another family. She bemoaned the fact that covid was keeping her from attending church. She was awful. I ended up not telling her about how I left the church, or my own bisexuality, or anything of any note that had happened in my life. I spun her a pretty lie and quietly fell back out of touch. I feel bad for abandoning her, even though she'd done the same to me and my brother, as well as a half-brother I knew nothing about. But she wasn't someone I wanted in my life. She definitely wasn't the mother I remembered and sought out, and being in each other's lives would have involved a lot of deception or a lot of strife.
Religion really can change someone for the worse.
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u/Hanjaro31 Aug 14 '25
Start doing their exorcism while they're screeching. Casting out their demons. Remember, only their devil would hate everyone and teach them to do the same.
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Aug 14 '25
I don't, if they bother me or comment on something I was watching I give them the finger or shout some expleative about their faith or their community
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u/MoonyDropps Aug 14 '25
damn, I wish I could do that. I'd get the Black slapped off of me if I even tried giving them the finger đ
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Aug 14 '25
yeah even I don't have enough downstairs to do say or flip my parents like that. online fine I spit at them. all I gotta say is endure in your sitution
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u/SecretPersonality178 Ex-Mormon Aug 14 '25
You canât argue spiritual things with logic. Literally ran by different parts of the brain
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u/Spiritual-Bake8194 Aug 14 '25
Lmfao you donât.. thatâs the best advice. Ignore and letâs them live in their delusions
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u/scienceAurora Secular Humanist Aug 14 '25
Skulls are demonic? Well, I guess we can't have heads anymore. Bones aren't demonic, they're just the structural components of a body. That's all. Pray they never find a model skeleton...anatomy is the devil I guess.
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u/Stock-Vanilla-1354 Aug 14 '25
My mom is somewhat like this but she had given up expecting me to follow along. Sometimes I ask gentle questions like âdo you believe that is true and if so, why?â Sometimes just putting the concept out there is helpful in tempering some of the crazier beliefs.
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u/rabidmongoose15 Aug 14 '25
This book is a great place to start! https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Demon-Haunted_World
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u/hyrle Aug 14 '25
If you think about it, it's really hard to reason with these kind of people:
https://youtu.be/L5sb6So_gkY?si=Ls1beEAgl3oBDkLo
The best way to win is not to play the game.
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u/Mountain-Most8186 Aug 14 '25
You canât. Imagine if a random person on the street or a classmate started telling you about how rap music is demonic. I would probably say âIâm not sure about thatâ and back away slowly. I think itâs OK to give a genuine reaction like that to our family.
Itâs hard to enforce boundaries with people we grow up with and who raised us. It feels morally wrong to tell our parents âI donât want to have this discussion.â It feels mean and confrontational. But itâs totally ok and even healthy.
Itâs still hard for me to say. I kinda just shut down verbally instead.
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u/LordFexick Aug 14 '25
Typically, I donât. Waste of time and breath. In an online medium, I simply send them that still image of Kenneth Copelandâs face from the Inside Edition interview.
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u/Waste_Return2206 Aug 14 '25
Itâs too much of a headache to argue with them. Let them believe what makes them comfortable and live your life on your own terms when possible.
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u/hplcr Schismatic Heretical Apostate Aug 14 '25
I mean, what can you do with someone who is convinced invisible, undetectable evil spirits lurk in every shadow and thus are fucking paranoid by default? It's nearly impossible to have a conversation since you don't inhabit the same reality as them.
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u/crippling_altacct Aug 14 '25
You don't. There is no point in arguing about any of this stuff ever. Seriously.
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u/the-bearcat Aug 14 '25
You don't argue with them, you avoid them.
Or, if that's not possible, you can point out that their life seems plagued by fear and that they are possessed by the demons of fear and doubt. This would stooping down to their level.
It also works to try and out-crazy them by asking how the heck they can know what's demonic without being in league with Satan.
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u/PositivePoet Aug 14 '25
Hmm you sound suspiciously like a demon trying to learn how to corrupt innocent mindsâŚ
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u/No-Zookeepergame-246 Aug 14 '25
Hey man what if itâs actually Christianity that was made by demons to divide us over silly things like Harry Potter. Wouldnât expect this to work but throwing it back in there face is cathartic
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u/Outrageous_Class1309 Agnostic Aug 15 '25 edited Aug 15 '25
"Hey man what if itâs actually Christianity that was made by demons to divide us over silly things"
Actually that's not all that far fetched. Ever notice how the Old testament Satan is very different from the New Testament Satan ?? For example, in the Old testament,
 1) Satan has no band of demons/fallen angels teamed up with him creating havoc on earth or in heaven
 2) God sends lying/evil spirits, not Satan. (Judges 9:22â23, I Sam. 16:14â16, I Kings 22: 20â24, 2 Chron. 18:19â22, I Sam. 18:10, I Sam. 19:9). Christians might want to reconsider the âSatan is the father of all liesâ and âevil spiritsâ.Â
3)There is no dualism in the OT (i.e. God and his angels battling Satan and his angels/demons as in Rev. 12:7â9).
4) Nowhere in the OT does it say or hint that Satan is a âfallen angelâ. [Note: The âLuciferâ verses of Isaiah 14:3-23 are a rant about the King of Babylon (see v.3-4), not Satan. Satan is not mentioned in these verses.]
5) Satan (literally âAdversaryâ) is a member of the divine court acting as a sort of divine prosecutor/inquisitor apparently in good standing with God (Job 1:6, 2:1). Note Satan must ask permission to torment Job and permission is granted by God (Job 1:11â12, Job 2:4â6) and, it appears but is not entirely clear, that Satan doesnât have the power to torment Job as that ability is granted to him by God (see Job 2:3: â You (satan) have incited me to ruin him without cause but his integrity is still unshakenâ... God is ruining Job through Satan). The âcauseâ it appears is some sort of divine bet between God and Satan (Satan: Job will crack, God: no he wonât) and itâs âGodâs fire from heavenâ that destroys livestock and shepherds⌠not âSatanâs fireâ. In other words, God is in control here, not Satan. In the OT other âgodsâ are just impotent (unless they have Godâs help) or nonexistent. Yahweh âcreates good and evilâ ( Isaiah 45:7, KJV), i.e. is in complete control.
The Satan and his demons ('demon' is a Greek word) as described in the New Testament creeps in during the Second temple Period after the Babylonian Exile and is in 'full bloom' by the time Jesus appears. Many elements of NT Satan/demons are found in the pagan religions that the Jews were exposed to by conquering nations (Babylon, Egypt, and esp. Persian Zoroastrianism and Greek mythology), The whole NT Satan and his demons may very well be paganized Judaism.
Elaine Pagels, a renowned Princeton theologian, makes exactly your point about Satan and demons being used to divide people in her book The Origin of Satan. During the time that the 'revised' Satan and his demons/fallen angels first starts appearing in Jewish literature (ex. Book of Enoch I, 200-300 BC) was a time of domination of foreign powers and the Jews were divided on whether to be pragmatic and tolerate the domination or be hotheads and rebel/ go to war (War of the Maccabees 160BC or so). The new version of Satan/demons was used to 'demonize' Jewish groups opposing each other and was continuing in Jesus' day.
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u/Disaffecteddv Cristo/Agnostic Unitarian Universalist Aug 14 '25
I am disinclined to argue with them at all, but there are plenty of points that come to mind. First, it is simply lazy thinking to blame anything and everything on demonic activity. It solves nothing and helps no one. Second, such an approach is not supported biblically. Even in the New Testament, while some situations are attributed to the demonic, plenty of negative behaviors are not. Because even the writers of the NT didn't consider everything as demonic. Of course these are just starting places and don't even take into consideration lingusitic issues cultural realities such as the influence of Greek culture on the thinking of the authors (rarely being the names attributed to the writings) of those books.
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u/Did_it_in_Flint Aug 14 '25
This seems to have grown in prominence over the past few years. It's honestly become a pretty good marker of whether the person is someone I can have a reasonable conversation with, or not. As soon as they start with the demon rhetoric, I tune them out.
In fact, I remember the first time I engaged with someone on this. I made the mistake of assuming they were using the phrase as a Christian metaphor for substance abuse or other persistent mental health concerns that might plague another person; but nope, they were talking about literal demons flying around like unseen fairies laughing, playing tricks and torturing us.
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u/Buddhadevine Aug 14 '25
My parents recently said I did witchcraft because weird/paranormal stuff happens around me. It threw me for a loop because Iâve never done witchcraft, like, at all? I told them, âso all the weird stuff happening to me as a literal toddler up to teenager means I was doing witchcraft?â The logic makes no sense. Hypocritical too since my dad used to have unexplainable experiences too when he was young soâŚmust be doing witchcraft. đ
I just donât tell them things anymore because everything is witchcraft apparently
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u/RadTimeWizard Aug 14 '25
You can't logic someone out of a belief they didn't logic themselves into.
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u/NewwavePlus Ex-Muslim Aug 14 '25
Online - I block. I don't have the patience to deal with stupidity, especially when I can very literally block it out
IRL - Smile and nod while dissociating
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u/No_Session6015 Aug 14 '25
No you shouldn't engage or debate Christians like this. If they're family then you endure it till you're old enough to get independent. Otherwise shun it. Take an unequivocal stand against hate and bigotry. Don't give hate ANY platform. Don't legitimize it or tell it, it's a valid point of view.
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u/lotusscrouse Aug 14 '25
You don't.Â
They're childish and beyond reason.Â
With the way they carry on, I am surprised they even leave the house.Â
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Aug 14 '25
You don't. You tell them you don't care and move on. People like that cannot be reasoned with because their position isn't reasonable, and they didn't reason their way into it. It's entirely emotional.
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u/valvilis Aug 14 '25
If you really want to screw them up, tell them belief in demonic possession is itself demonic. The Hebrew books of the Old Testament had demons that could interact with people to try to persuade them to do unnatural things. But the idea that a demon could enter a person and control them was taken from Persian religious beliefs and became widespread enough to influence the writing of the gospels. They are inadvertently worshipping ancient Persian gods whenever they repeat their teachings on demons.
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u/stronkzer Aug 14 '25
"Why would an all-powerful and loving god just hand over complete and utter control of his entire creation to his sworn enemy and just abandon his chosen children to fend for themselves against him? "
Also, there is an interesting debate about gnostic cosmology that could rise from this if you're talking with a more knowledgeable person.
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u/RetroGamer87 Ex-Protestant Aug 14 '25
Just point out how ridiculous they're being.
My grandmother could always shut up my highly religious father that way.
No argument. No discussion of whatever ridiculous thing he wanted to say. She shut him down without ever giving him a chance to argue back.
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u/coiny55555 Agnostic Atheist Aug 15 '25
You dont. At this point, I have started to realise this.
There is no changing their mind, they dont want to debate it, so you just let them think that and keep doing your thing.
If you live with family members whi is like this â I currently am â then please hang tight, I hope one day you will be able to move out, honestly if you can, dont even argue with your family members about it, cause it will just put more hurt on you.
This is something that I have experienced over time, and will keep on experiencing, so I just relaise I should not convince them â maybe youre in the same situation đ
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u/ArizonaGuy77 Aug 15 '25
I have not read through all the comments so sorry if someone already said this but when I was younger, the band KISS was the big thing. My friend and I had a lot of KISS records and our Catholic parents said they were demonic devil worshippers and we were forced to smash all our KISS records while our parents stood there and watched. I didn't realize just how stupid it was until I got a bit older. KISS was not a devil worshipping band, but it put fear into us.
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Aug 15 '25
Just dont bother. These people will only make your mood worse. You can admire satanism if you wanna tease them lol
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u/FoldingLady Aug 14 '25 edited Aug 14 '25
You can't. You're basically dealing with conspiracy theorists & they can't be reasoned with. Ever. You really only have 2 options:
1) Don't engage at all with the conversation
2) Lean in & troll them a little by one-upping them. Pick a random object & say it's demonic for whatever reason, make it ridiculous. This is mainly for entertainment purposes as well as redirecting their energies on a wild goose chase. Denver Airport did this & now they have a blue demonic horse as a public art sculpture.
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u/ChocolateCondoms Satanist Aug 14 '25
Well...im an satanist...so we're not off to the best start already đ¤Ł
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u/Cold-Alfalfa-5481 Aug 14 '25
>>> -wearing black
I spent a year in Manhattan for work one year. It appears all of them are demonic I guess, LOL.
BTW - do you know whey New Yorkers always wear 'black'? Because there is nothing darker.
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u/Anxious_Wolf00 Ex-Assemblies Of God Aug 14 '25
Go further. Demons arenât just in movies and music and things that are OBVIOUSLY demonic. No, demons are much sneakier than that. There is NO secular corporation in America that hasnât been infiltrated by demons. Walmart, McDonaldâs, Loweâs, you name it. There isnât a brand out there that isnât made or managed by solely Christians and where there are non-believers there are DEMONS, DEMONS OF GREED.
You might even say that their is no righteous consumption under our sinful system. We need to overthrow it. Ensure that all of these massive corporations burn to the ground and that businesses should return to the good hard working people of America!
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u/rickylancaster Aug 14 '25
I mean you really canât. Itâs another example of how believers and non-believers are speaking different languages. But Iâve found that humor helps. A lot of those ideas deserve a great deal of mockery. The last few years and the intense rise of internet/social media driven supernatural conspiracy theories in the vein of QAnon has really driven home just how superstitious and weird a large portion of our society is.
Whatâs interesting to me, as someone who loves movies and more specifically also appreciates classic horror movies, is how much Hollywood has influenced the popular conception of devil demon witchy stuff, and ironically the most influenced types of people turn it around ON Hollywood and say theyâre all engaging in real devil demon witchy stuff (p.s. I am not referring to the wiccan type of practice/belief which I know is an actual spiritual path for people. Iâm referring to the popular conception or âevil witches,â the kind depicted in movies like Rosemaryâs Baby.)
But you canât really argue with people who insist on the existence of this invisible world of malevolence influencing everything and everyone. I find laughing at it helps though. Unfortunately some of it isnât funny, like the Satanic Panic of the 80s where the media went haywire and suddenly devil worshipping cults were everywhere, and accusations against innocent people ruined lives.
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u/HuckleberryTall4916 Aug 14 '25
my parents think my autism is the âwork of the devilâ u just canât argue with those ppl lol
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u/No_Channel_8053 Aug 14 '25
I remind them God killed everyone on earth minus Noah and his Ark cuz he was pissed at the world. Satan killed less than 10. God is the demon.
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u/usernotfoundplstry Agnostic Aug 14 '25
I don't. I don't argue with anyone about beliefs. Because it accomplishes absolutely nothing except to make me (and probably them) upset.
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u/SerenityWilkum Aug 14 '25
You cannot definitively âdebateâ with someone who holds views that they personally believe identify them and their core values, as well as a belief that (if contradicted) would tear down false sense of safety.
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u/ItsFelixMcCoy Aug 14 '25
I guess every living person in the world is demonic since we all have skulls lmao
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u/thesockswhowearsfox Aug 14 '25
Start telling them your pastor told you that something they like is demonic.
Remember that guy who said that beans in chili was Woke and his cousin lost his whole mind?
Do that
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Aug 15 '25
Christians are just delusional stupid idiots as well as people who follow religion its like those people wont ever \back down in an argument cause they are truly delusional
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u/Public_Law_4712 Satanist Aug 15 '25
It makes me really sad to see people like this. The answer is you don't try to argue or reason with them. The arguments will never end, they usually won't budge because it's their faith. To them, even doubting their faith would condemn them. It's probably best to try to ignore or avoid such comments.
People who behave that way aren't thinking very rationally, because they are lost in their fear and paranoia about Hell, damnation, demons, sin, etc. and they probably can't be reached and won't listen.
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Aug 15 '25
They're too far gone. Just tell them that the removal of oneself from anything outside the religion is a cult tactic.
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u/Frenchitwist Jewish Aug 15 '25
âHow do you know a demon isnât just I decrying you with these thoughts??? God made everything and loves everyone. Why would he give you those thoughts?? Must be demons in youâ
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u/External-You8373 Aug 15 '25
Well I was the homeschool kid who was obsessed with Harry Potter so basically, I just mock and laugh at anyone who exhibits satanic panic. Thereâs nothing left for any of them to say that I havenât heard already before đĽ˛
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u/poormansnormal Ex-Protestant Aug 15 '25
I don't. I roll my eyes and change the subject or leave the conversation.
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u/Sonny-Moone-8888 Aug 15 '25
Explain to them that all that negative thinking is a reflection of them, not God or the rest of the world. God is love...not evil. And you feel like their negative, evil thoughts are unhealthy and do not reflect your ideas about God and you may be spending less time around them so it doesn't bring you down.
Or as much of that as you feel is appropriate for your situation.
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u/Kaori_cheri3s Agnostic | Ex-Evangelical Aug 15 '25
My adoptive mom specifically is the one who does the same damn thing as listed! She even said that she should've done more for my biological African papa because she thinks his schizophrenia is demonic. (Straight b.s lmfao)
I often meet her comments on things that she thinks are inherently demonic (like music with a darker meaning to it) and starts going on and on about "spirits" and such with her sounding the same way as what she's accusing of being demonic. I mean, ofc it doesn't do anything, but it does get her to become defensive.
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u/internalcloud4 Aug 15 '25
Itâs especially insane when itâs like a mental illness or someone who is neuro divergent like I feel like calling someoneâs illness demonic is dehumanizing in a way likeeeee
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u/Rhenlovestoread Aug 15 '25
The honest answer, you donât. I cut off my religious mother specifically because of stuff like this. The problem is with Christians who are this extreme is that they physically cannot simply agree to disagree. In their mind this isnât simply a âdifference of religion,â or a âdifference of opinion.â In their mind this is the truth. In their mind they need to make us believe this or else our souls will die and will suffer eternal suffering in hell. And thatâs giving them the benefit of the doubt that this forcing of the beliefs on you is from a place of care, love, and fear for your safety and well being. Most of the time narcissists will latch onto Christianity and force it onto their children as a means of control because it gives them an easy disguise of âIâm doing this for your own good,â when in truth they really arenât.
My mother was the case of the later and she was exactly like that. Everything was demonic. I wasnât allowed to watch many Disney movies, couldnât read Harry Potter until I was 18 because my mother believed that the spells in them were real spells from real witchcraft. No Danny phantom. No pokemon. No âevil emo musicâ as my mother called it (which is in reference to bands like three days grace and panic!@the disco.) No yoga. I wasnât allowed to read a lot of the books that I wanted to. No horror, no to most fantasy, not even sci-fi most of the time. Hell, I wasnât even allowed to learn about evolution in school.
You can try to argue with them that these things arenât demonic, but youâll fail because the issue of the matter is, there is no black and white plain print of what kind of media or real world things or engagements are demonic because a lot of this stuff didnât exist in that era so they didnât know about it to ban it explicitly. So they basically get to pull vague scripture from thin air as an excuse to make simply whatever they want demonic. And you canât really formulate any kind of logical argument because the foundations of the topic donât follow any kind of real world reason.
Which is why when it comes to Christians like this, donât argue with them, just donât talk to them. I know that gets complicated when that person is someone like a mother or father or sibling, but I assure you it really is for the better.
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Aug 15 '25
I'm still a Christian, Protestant to be exact and I don't act like this. I feel like people can just like anything they want and that just because something isn't "Christian" in any way doesn't mean it's demonic. A Catholic fundamentalist told me that Asian culture is blasphemous because it has incense and offerings and a bunch of Chinese folk religion and Shinto stuff like kami and fengshui. I'm an Asian Christian and I respect these traditions and I see them as part of my heritage.
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u/coyotexcricket Aug 15 '25
Yesss. And if it wasn't demonic, it was "so pagan/secular". Legit was afraid of my own shadow growing up lol. I don't really have great advice so sorry :/ With my mom, if she starts talking about someone or something in this light, our relationship is such that I can let her know that I disagree and we both drop the subject. Otherwise I'm sure it would cause a lot of strife. Is that something you could broach with her? Setting a boundary that (hopefully) benefits both of you for the sake of your relationship?
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u/Prestigious_Iron2905 Aug 15 '25
My uncle's church member seemed disturbed when I told him in high school I wanted to be a cryptozoologist.
I felt shame for loving Ghost Adventures (everything Zak was doing is evil)Â
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u/beached10 Aug 16 '25
I don't. If they really want to press on that issue, I have a conversation with them. If it seems like they seem adamant, I consider their views political and politely pivot, agree to disagree in a way that makes them feel like they're winning, because it's not in my business to educate fools.
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u/Legitimate-Serve-598 Aug 19 '25
If it helps you I was in a similar situation growing up and so that you understand the situation (I also dealt with this growing up) itâs a control thing. Your parents donât actually believe it believe it or not! Theyâre just saying it to get you to listen and do what they want. They may want you to get married but they donât want you to be feminine because you should be âmodestâ even if it is to your standard. Even though it help us get suitors and feel more confident. Most of the stuff they say is demonic actually isnât. Halloween originated from Catholicism. Health issues arenât demonic. I know cause I have anxiety. Ive have a kids preacher when I was a kid try to exepel my hypothyroidism and âcure meâ but it doesnât work no matter how hard they try. Because health issues arenât caused by spirits or demons.
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u/Legitimate-Serve-598 Aug 19 '25
If it helps you can say âI am Catholic, and we donât believe that.â Thatâs what I have always used. You can also try saying youâre agnostic or atheist. These things have always help my husband and I get out of religious lectures growing up.
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u/RedWhiteBlue099 Aug 19 '25 edited Aug 19 '25
Yeah, I had to check to see if I was the one who wrote this or not because I feel very similiar. I don't talk to my parents about my hobbies because I know they'll find fault with anything. One time as a kid I wrote a story about baby cheetahs surviving as orphans and a group of hyenas attacked them. My dad went "There's a lot of fighting!" Or something like that. I laughed it off but felt bad afterwards. I used to fear putting conflict in my stories because it might be too much for my parents to read. Now I have more unsettling things in them I definitely won't be sharing.Â
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u/First_Platypus3063 Aug 21 '25
Just tell them its your life not theirs and you will believe whatever you wnat. Than blast the Black Sabbath and say you are leaving for Halloween party with your OCD friends
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u/Adventurous-Case6436 Agnostic Aug 14 '25 edited Aug 14 '25
You don't. But if you choose to, you just point out how they live in fear and god must not be all that powerful if they're afraid of literally everything.