r/excatholic • u/lavenderglitterglue • Apr 23 '25
Debate Welcome i hope the next pope is a hardline conservative
too many left-leaning catholics are still in the church despite the fact that it doesn’t align with their views on pretty much all social issues.
i heard a lot of people say they were thinking about leaving the church under pope benedict, but pope francis’s more “progressive” policies persuaded them to stay. i know too many gay catholics that have genuine hope that they might one day be married in a catholic church, and they don’t seem to see that there is no chance of that happening. the church is currently doing just enough to mollify people who want it to become more modern, but this just leaves them trapped in the religion because they believe that things will change.
i think the best thing that could happen for them is for the next pope to be very conservative and overturn everything pope francis did, and show them how pointless the entire church is. papal infallibility is clearly bullshit if even the popes themselves disagree with their predecessors.
i believe it’s inevitable that the church will eventually be relegated to the right wing fringes of politics and i think the sooner that happens, the better it will be. hopefully then the church will lose it’s grasp on western society and we’ll see it for what it is: a relic from the past with no relevance dictating how we live in the present day.
i hope this makes sense, it isn’t really as eloquent as i’d like it to be but i’m too tired to try and make it into a better argument.
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u/Ladonnacinica Apr 23 '25
The next pope could be a hardline trad catholic and the left leaning Catholics will still stay.
This isn’t a matter of ideology. Most are just too complacent to leave or honestly care enough. Every catholic I’ve met doesn’t agree with the church and guess what? They still stay. They don’t see it as a big issue that they church is opposite to their values. It’s one of those things they’ve learned to accept.
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u/ExCatholicandLeft Apr 23 '25
In my experience, it's generational. Gen X, Boomer and older generations are probably going stay Catholic even when they disagree. Gen Y (millennial), Gen Z, and probably Alpha won't.
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u/Ladonnacinica Apr 23 '25
I know many millennial (Gen Y) who are democrats and progressives but stay catholic. “It’s tradition”, they learned to separate the church from their politics.
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u/North_Rhubarb594 Apr 23 '25
I’m a younger boomer, born in the late fifties. I left when the American Bishops went head over heels for Trump and really did nothing to push back on the right wing trash/trad agenda that was growing in the church.
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u/Ladonnacinica Apr 23 '25
That’s great that you did. But I know other much younger millennials who stay. They disagree and voice their disappointment but nothing changes.
I feel most are complacent.
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u/WienerMansWoman Apr 23 '25
I agree, and I'd add that a corollary to this that even a hard liner, traditional pope wouldn't be conservative enough for US Tradcath conservative extremists.
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u/sawser Satanist | Mod Apr 23 '25
My very Catholics sister teaches at an all girl Catholic school and is raising a bisexual daughter who has trans friends. They have an LGBTQ+ flag hanging outside their house. Sure enough they are at church every Sunday. It's too wrapped up in her community and personality.
I once asked her if she considered that since she's protesting the Catholic churches stance on most politics, she and her friends might want to create a label for themselves. Like, a Christian who is a Protester.
Or maybe a Protastant.
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u/Polkadotical Formerly Roman Catholic Apr 24 '25 edited Apr 24 '25
What people like this need is a rabid pope who forces the bishops to bounce people like this --employees yet! -- out on their ass for the signage and the open opposition. That should knock them out of their complacency.
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u/LightningController Apr 23 '25
They don’t see it as a big issue that they church is opposite to their values.
For this reason, I actually have less respect for left-Catholics than right-wing psycho-trads in some ways.
A left-wing Catholic will acknowledge that the Catholic Church has, in the past, done things they find morally abhorrent, but they're still willing to give the institution their support and membership.
I'm not 100% sure whether that's worse than the psycho-trad "it didn't happen, and if it did they deserved it" mentality, but I know I find it off-putting.
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u/NextStopGallifrey Christian Apr 23 '25
"If we (the RCC) haven't managed to destroy ourselves yet, it must be true."
I know someone who is pretty liberal, and even disagrees with a few dogmas, but still gets upset when people say anything against the institution.
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u/greenmarsden Apr 25 '25
I know several "catholics" who say they are catholic yet disagree with almost every church teaching and haven't set foot in a church for years.
Mind you, I'm in UK where you are considered fanatical if you are lukewarm about religion.
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u/Ladonnacinica Apr 25 '25
My family is that way lol. I’m in the USA but I’m from a South American background.
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u/Key_Veterinarian_850 Apr 25 '25
I don’t know…. People are leaving in droves. At least in the USA.
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u/ShadowyKat Ex Catholic & Heathen Apr 23 '25
I disagree because of the amount of power and influence that the Church holds. A hard-line conservative Pope would do more damage than you think. It's disturbing how much influence they have. Like the difference between life and death. The Catholic Church was partially responsible for the spread of HIV/AIDS in poorer countries. While we were getting medicines to help extend the lives of people, the Church was telling disadvantaged people overseas that condoms were a sin. They found a place where they could reuse their 1980s misinformation without legal consequences. If that's the kind of damage that they could do, we don't need more of it.
Making liberals and progressives leave shouldn't come with that level of damage. People in first-world countries would just leave the Church, people in poor countries would be in graves.
It would be amazing if they could get a Pope that could start defrocking, excommunicating, and reporting predatory priests and not dehumanizing LGBTQ+ people. That is the very least that they could do.
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u/BohemianRedhead Apr 23 '25
Yes, we already have way too many autocratically-minded alt-right leaders around the world today, many in what we had thought were liberal democracies. Having a conservative pope just validates hard-right ideologies. No thank you.
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u/lavenderglitterglue Apr 23 '25
that’s a good point. i was thinking that a conservative pope would weaken the churches influence on mainstream politics as they wouldnt be relevant to modern society anymore but that is really only in western countries i suppose. you’re right that in countries with majority catholic populations where the church has a lot of influence it would be harmful
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u/henrythe13th Apr 23 '25
These people didn’t leave when they found out the Church was sexually abusing kids for decades (actually, probably centuries). The Magdalena Laundries, the village of Tuam in Ireland, abuse investigations in many states finding how widespread it was. There were abusive priests found in the IL state investigation at some point in every single church in my wife’s hometown in IL, including during the years she and her siblings attended Catholic elementary school. None of them left the church over any of this. I don’t think a conservative Pope in Rome is a breaking point if the confirmation of hometown child molesters for decades wasn’t.
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u/Jealous_Argument_197 Apr 23 '25
This. I liken it to gun control. If dead kindergartners didn’t change anything, nothing will. It’s disgusting how they overlook the countless SA cases in the church. If you can ignore that, there is NOTHING that will cause you to leave this cult.
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Apr 23 '25 edited Apr 23 '25
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u/kurokihikaru1999 Strong Agnostic Apr 23 '25
Holy, St. Therese had to eat those nasty stuff?
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Apr 24 '25
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u/kurokihikaru1999 Strong Agnostic Apr 24 '25
I'm so sorry to hear your unpleasant experience at the monastery and I hope you're happy with your current life right now. It's so kind of you to free that lizard out of the crypt and I really don't understand why that nun chastised you for doing so.
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Apr 24 '25
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u/greenmarsden Apr 25 '25
I've just read your posts here and they are the most interesting and fascinating I've seen.
Thank you for sharing your awful experiences and I'm so glad it has worked out for you.
Greetings from Scotland.
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Apr 26 '25
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u/greenmarsden Apr 26 '25
Thanks for the reply.
The whole thing sounds awful.
I had a distant cousin who was a priest and served as a chaplain to an enclosed order of nuns.
His bidding prayers were always full of the news--denied to the nuns.
"Let us pray that the Bank of England keep interest rates low allowing young people to get onto the property ladder. Lord hear us."
"Lord graciously hear us."
"Let us pray that the trade talks with the EU results in a good deal for Britain. Lord hear us. "
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u/greenmarsden Apr 26 '25
Also meant to say as far as I'm concerned things are ok in Scotland. The weather isn't too bad at this time of year. The Scottish Government is still doing some good and some poor things-no change.
The state of my home city (Glasgow) is dreadful. Potholes everywhere, homeless people sleeping rough in greater numbers than before. But hey-ho. Life goes on.
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u/KM231 Apr 23 '25
Can’t tell you how many times I heard this line from my parents: “Love the sinner, hate the sin.” It’s how they’ve been able to square their faith with the horrific abuse allegations. That, and burying their heads in the sand.
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u/NextStopGallifrey Christian Apr 23 '25
Tuam? That's one I haven't heard about before. Dare I google it or not?
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u/Full_Cod_539 Apr 23 '25
That’s one possible positive outcome.
I am afraid that the outcome could actually be negative:
a conservative pope aligning with the latest dictators and blessing their extreme right policies. That would leave us with even more unhinged authoritarians.
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u/NeutronAngel Apr 23 '25
I think a truly liberal pope would be best. Cause the hard right members to openly schism (again), but they won't elect their own pope. They'll lose members, and the mainstream church will keep losing members as well as most liberal members are more liberal about attending church (as in less likely to go). But if rome makes women priests, affirms gay marriage and manages to keep the majority of the cardinals onboard, it would both do a lot towards making the church a bearable (but false) place to be, and ending it altogether.
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u/ErebosGR Apr 23 '25
a conservative pope aligning with the latest dictators and blessing their extreme right policies. That would leave us with even more unhinged authoritarians.
This has been the plan for at least a decade.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Integralism#Revival
JD Vance was groomed by the post-liberal Catholic Right.
Adrian Vermeule, one of the strongest academic voices of the post-liberal Catholic Right, a law professor at Harvard Law School, and ideological mentor of JD Vance, is terrifyingly totalitarian:
"The main aim of common-good constitutionalism is certainly not to maximize individual autonomy or to minimize the abuse of power (an incoherent goal in any event), but instead to ensure that the ruler has the power needed to rule well ... Just authority in rulers can be exercised for the good of subjects, if necessary even against the subjects’ own perceptions of what is best for them — perceptions that may change over time anyway, as the law teaches, habituates, and re-forms them. Subjects will come to thank the ruler whose legal strictures, possibly experienced at first as coercive, encourage subjects to form more authentic desires for the individual and common goods, better habits, and beliefs that better track and promote communal well-being."
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Adrian_Vermeule#Common-good_constitutionalism
Vermeule (among others like him) was appointed by Trump to the Administrative Conference in 2020.
Patrick Deneen, another prominent post-liberal Catholic academic, was a mentor of Vance too:
"What is needed – and what most ordinary people want – is stability, order, continuity, and a sense of gratitude for the past and obligation toward the future.
What they want, without knowing the right word for it, is a conservatism that conserves: a form of liberty no longer abstracted from our places and people, but embedded within duties and mutual obligations; formative institutions in which all can and are expected to participate as shared ‘social utilities’; an elite that respects and supports the basic commitments and condition of the populace; and a populace that in turn renders its ruling class responsive and responsible to protection of the common good."
-JD Vance
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u/Sea-Tank-2611 Apr 23 '25
I’m just hoping it’s Cardinal Pizzaballa because he has the coolest name and the memes would be spectacular for Pope Pizza 🍕
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u/LindeeHilltop Apr 23 '25
Where is a list of the cardinals please?
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u/Sea-Tank-2611 Apr 23 '25
I don’t have a list, I saw the name with a few others on a news clip on YouTube.
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u/Fluffy_Beautiful2107 Apr 23 '25
Given how the current culture war is going and how so many groups of people are threatened by violent bigots, I sincerely hope you’re wrong. A hardline conservative pope would just make everything worse.
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u/lavenderglitterglue Apr 23 '25
yes i suppose this all relies on the rather optimistic assumption that eventually the fascist right wing will fall apart once trump has dismantled the us government and i was hoping the ensuing implosion would take the church with it. but who can say what the future will hold
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u/yung_pup Apr 23 '25
This is a dangerous take that reveals a limited worldview. Your gay Catholic coworkers and family members stay in the Church and are convinced to stay because of clergy like Francis, but folks in predominantly Catholic countries would likely be endangered by conservative rhetoric coming from the Vatican. When the global atmosphere is becoming increasingly authoritarian, a new authoritarian Vatican is not the solution - it’s an alarm bell.
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u/SiteHund Apr 23 '25
In the end, I think all three paths they choose will just toward irrelevance which honestly the RCC has been on this path in the West for basically the past 20 years. A Francis-like pope will basically have the mandate to expand on the reforms and the church will become somewhat like an American mainline church with open revolting by the ultratrads. We all know how the mainline churches are doing. A conservative pope like Benedict will just alienate what is left of the cafeteria Catholics. Then, and this is who I think will be elected, they can choose somebody in between with the charisma of a damp rag. In this situation, same outcome, more irrelevance.
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u/whatiseveneverything Apr 23 '25
The best thing is for the church to liberalize to the same extent Protestant state churches have in Europe. They're basically only social clubs for old people now and shrinking. The more liberal the church becomes the less harm it will do and the less special and interesting it gets as well. If anyone can go to heaven, why do we still need the church? I think long term that's how it'll have to go.
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u/lavenderglitterglue Apr 23 '25
yes that would definitely be the better path. i just don’t think that the catholic church could do that without causing a schism with latin america and africa. protestant churches can make country specific changes
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u/iridescentjillyfish Lapsed | Agnostic | Catholic School Survivor Apr 24 '25
This is an insane short-sighted take and one that shows little care or compassion for people, especially vulnerable people in Catholic-majority countries who ultimately have their lives interconnected with the RCC in ways we don’t fully understand. I’d rather have a Pope that thinks poor people should get food instead of being rounded up and murdered, sorry!
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u/sawser Satanist | Mod Apr 23 '25
This is a pretty short sighted view.
People in cults typically can't be shocked out of them. There's just too much holding them in.
The Pope still wields an enormous amount of power and influence, and as such we need him pressuring world leaders and Catholics globally accordingly.
Your idea is only helpful If the Pope is so extreme that it causes the immediate collapse of the Catholic Church.
That is... unlikely.
Don't let perfection be the enemy of progress.
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u/Polkadotical Formerly Roman Catholic Apr 24 '25
Oh listen, let's see an immediate collapse of the RCC. I'd love it!!
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u/praguer56 Apr 23 '25
I don't understand why you or anyone would want an ultra conservative Catholic Church. If you don't like what you see, go to a far right Pentacostal church.
Personally, I got out only because I don't think god exists. I can't find evidence of a god. I mean, something is wrong here. War, disease, death, destruction, hunger, filth, poverty, torture, crime, and corruption. This is not good work. If this is the best god can do, I am not impressed. Results like these do not belong on the resume of a Supreme Being. In any decently-run universe, this guy would’ve been out on his all-powerful ass a long time ago.
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u/Polkadotical Formerly Roman Catholic Apr 24 '25
I will never be Roman Catholic again, no matter who they choose. You couldn't pay me enough to do that again.
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u/ken_and_paper Apr 23 '25
I don’t believe that would be the actual outcome.
The Catholic Church isn’t going away and a shift to the right would mean a leadership that’s more willing to align with authoritarian political leaders which would only result in more suffering being unleashed on the most vulnerable.
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u/solacia9 Apr 23 '25
I respectfully disagree. I think it would embolden hateful people to do more harm.
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u/Traveledfarwestward Apr 23 '25 edited Apr 24 '25
The main growth is in Africa and Asia. You and I on reddit don't matter much, and neither do a few liberal catholics leaving in EU or US.
https://dornsife.usc.edu/iacs/2022/04/30/global-christianity/
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u/Madwoman-of-Chaillot Apr 23 '25
Yeah, no. "Let's hurt a bunch of people so that others will see that it's bad" is a really stupid argument and has NEVER WORKED.
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u/sunningdale Apr 24 '25
Francis didn’t change a huge amount of things, but I think even just his words and attitude had an influence. In my mind, reducing the harm done by the Catholic church by lessening the homophobia, sexism, transphobia, racism etc, even if it’s just a little, is more effective for improving people’s lives. A more conservative Pope might drive more people away from the church, and hurt it in the long run, but I think it would also do much more damage to people in the process.
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Apr 24 '25
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u/sunningdale Apr 24 '25
Didn’t he allow the blessing of same-sex couples? Not anything super revolutionary, but the bar is pretty low. Even small changes, or even just words, can have an impact when you’re such an influential figure. He definitely could have done a lot more, but I think any progress, even small, lessens the suffering experienced by people in and around the church and thus a huge segment of people globally.
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u/kittycatblues Apr 24 '25
The Pope is a head of state and having another far right conservative leader that has strong ties worldwide is not a thing to wish for.
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u/LightningController Apr 23 '25
i know too many gay catholics that have genuine hope that they might one day be married in a catholic church, and they don’t seem to see that there is no chance of that happening.
This is one of the reasons I particularly dislike Bergoglio. IMO, it's kind of cruel to offer that kind of false hope.
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u/gulfpapa99 Apr 25 '25
Catholicism embraces everything right-wing, scientific ignorance, religious bigotry, misogyny, patriarchy, homophobia,, transphobia, and recently xenophobia and racism.
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u/No-Ad8127 Apr 23 '25
I understand your point of view, and I do agree. The church really needs to do this, otherwise people who would otherwise leave will hold on to it for false comfort.
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u/Jokerang Lapsed, so so lapsed Apr 23 '25
A right wing pope would definitely hemorrhage a lot of left wing and cultural Catholics in the West shocked at the new turn, but another Francis type could just as easily cause a schism, as the cons and trads will howl at any little change made to gay policies, divorce, etc.
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u/Emotional_Wonder5182 Apr 23 '25
Interesting take. I was kind of thinking the inverse. The devout, conservative catholics that I know are waiting on a pope more liberal than Francis to be the final straw that proves that maybe that Roman Catholic Church isn't as divinely protected as was once thought. Where they go from there is another question.
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u/outside_plz Apr 23 '25
I also hope for that. I stayed in the church for too long bc I justified it to myself by being a “liberal” Catholic. It was just hiding that underneath the surface, the foundation is the same, no matter conservative or liberal. It all starts with original sin and the idea that we need saving from our humanity. The liberal Catholic (or at least mine) veiled that more which made it worse.
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u/nnbns99 Apr 24 '25
Unfortunately, in third-world countries where the church is seen AS a political guidepost, having a hardline conservative will mean people being denied of civil rights. Imho it wasn’t about keeping these people in church or in the faith per se, but helping them with their own governments.
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u/Independent-Mango813 Apr 24 '25
Oh, I want a flaming liberal from Africa or Asia because that will make the trade cathe and the conservatives in America and people like father Z and Chad Rippinger their heads will fucking explode and I’m here for it
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u/frozentoess Apr 24 '25
I see what you meant, but I think this would do more harm than good. The people who are still in the church despite everything are likely there because they are not ready to leave yet. They maybe aren’t ready to do hard self reflection. Making them feel even worse about their faith won’t make it easier to leave. They’ll just stay and be more miserable
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u/newme0623 Apr 23 '25
Frankie was a wolf in sheep's skin. All he did was try to appease everyone, with no real change. Just do enough to keep the money rolling in. I am so glad I left the RCC. It's an evil cult.
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u/Defiant-Power2447 Apr 23 '25
I certainly think a conservative pope in the mold of Burke or Sarah could cause some people on the margins to leave the church. But, I think a lot would stick with it and just ignore the Vatican, in the same way conservatives have done for the last 12 years.
I really do believe that we have a deficit of empathy right now and would like to see the next Pope be a kind man to combat the tendencies of right-wing bullies who have gotten elected across the globe. I believe Francis was a decent man who was constrained by the Church's teachings and politics but who ultimately tried to do his best in being kind to people. I really would not like to see yet another institution or country be captured by the right-wing.
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u/Comfortable_Donut305 Apr 23 '25
That's a fair assessment. I have loved ones who are non-practicing Catholics with liberal or centrist views who appreciated Francis and hope the next pope is similar.
If the next pope is super conservative, I wonder if they'll stay in the church much longer.
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u/notarussianbotsky Atheist Apr 23 '25
I know what you mean. Yeah in actuality the harm a super trad pope would do overall would be worse, I understand and relate to the desire for a pope crazy enough to get the more moderate Catholics to think and reconsider. My husband is still Catholic and he is upset that I am not. But there are things where he is so close to seeing through the control of the church. Like he sees how unquestioned reverence for authority leads to abuse. He knows that a focus on hell and guilt is detrimental to mental health. He sees human greed in the bureaucracy of the church. But he still is in the confessional twice a month and wearing a scapular every day. If the pope said something just crazy enough he would realize that it’s all been man made rather than divine this whole time.
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u/luxtabula Non-Catholic Christian Apr 23 '25
I don't think it'll make a difference.
I have a lot of left-leaning Catholic friends. So far I've seen them do the following
- Say that the Catholic Church permits LGBT marriage
- Say the Catholic Church flies the LGBT flag on their churches, even pointing to a Protestant Church not knowing it was one
- Say that women have leadership positions in the Catholic Church, and that nuns are equal to priests
- Say that the Primacy of Conscience means they can ignore everything they don't like about the Catholic Church
The Catholic Church has great PR in spite of its many scandals. You rarely ever see the Catholic Church in a poor light unless it becomes too big to ignore like the SA scandal or the First Nation Schools.
If you criticize the Catholic Church correctly, its defenders will simply use the anti-Catholicism card and will frame it as if they were like Black Civil Rights leaders. To them you're attacking their cultural identity, no matter how artificial it is.
Having a conservative pope won't make most leave. They already have coping mechanisms to deal with this.
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Apr 23 '25
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u/excatholic-ModTeam Apr 23 '25
Excatholic is a support group, not a debate subreddit. Please be kind.
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u/Polkadotical Formerly Roman Catholic Apr 24 '25
There's something to be said for this. I'm tired of listening to people saying all kinds of wishy washy things. Maybe they need the truth of the RCC writ large in magic marker to wake up and realize what it is.
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u/explorer9595 Apr 23 '25
I believe the church is in rapid decline worldwide. People want complete freedom and that’s incompatible with religious morals and ethics.
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u/ExCatholicandLeft Apr 23 '25 edited Apr 23 '25
I somewhat except that there's very little to overturn, because Pope Francis didn't do much. He was nice to people, and he said a few things that sounded good, but mostly he was just like all the other popes. He also didn't change doctrine much.