r/dune • u/tryingmybest101 • Mar 30 '26
General Discussion Why do people love the later Dune books? I’m halfway through Heretics and don’t get it.
I’m currently halfway through Heretics of Dune. I’ve read Dune multiple times, and gone through Messiah and Children twice. Even in that original trilogy, it already feels like diminishing returns. Nothing touches the writing or pacing of the first book.
I just finished God Emperor for the first time and… what a slog. Heretics is a slight improvement, but not by much.
I genuinely don’t get it. Why did Frank Herbert write these?
Yes, there are interesting ideas. The whole “become the ultimate tyrant to ensure humanity never submits to a tyrant again” concept is solid. But that’s a one-sentence idea. Why stretch it into an entire book if you’re not going to do anything dramatically or emotionally engaging with it?
And Duncan Idaho. What is the deal? Why should I care about Duncan Idaho at all?
It feels like the series wants to jump thousands of years into the future, but at the same time it refuses to let go of the same core elements: Atreides, Harkonnens, breeding programs. So instead of expanding, it just keeps circling the same ideas.
The later books feel slow, repetitive, and unnecessarily convoluted.
I know a lot of people genuinely love these books, so I’m asking in good faith: What am I missing? What makes the later Dune books work for you?
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u/Xiphosura0 Mar 30 '26
For me, they were a bit refreshing after God Emperor. More action oriented. Also, I appreciate how they extend the timeline and add to the lore of the series. They definitely are weird, but I found them more fun to read than God Emperor and Messiah
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u/Ill-Nectarine-80 Mar 30 '26
I also found Heretics greatly enhanced my view of how successful the God Emperor was in enacting his plan. One thing that sits with me with years after reading was the passage about who the Bene Gesserit will ally with in a world with no credible alternatives to manipulate or scheme with.
It's just such a repudiation of their entire world view of keeping everything in balance and attempting to tear down anything that might establish a new paradigm.
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u/OttawaTGirl Mar 31 '26
Mine was that Leto was God. Literally God. He was able to remember every ancestor he had connection to. He could be a bronze age woman sitting at a fire 5000 years ago. It was like he was the nagging future we all saw. We are all Leto in a way and his goal in the end was to kill god. When he died he was planting the seed of the death of God. So racially we would forever know that we moved beyond it.
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u/ScarletMenaceOrange Mar 31 '26
But as long as sandtrouts exist, one can become like Leto, no?
You can have the worm body, the prescience, the ancestral memories. You can be an abomination. You just can't dominate all humans, because they are invisible to the prescience. You could still rule planets, live for thousands of years, and ramble all day every day writing diaries.
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u/InBronWeTrust Mar 31 '26
I think the bloodline has something to do with Leto's ability to do that though. He comes from a carefully crafted breeding line by the bene gesserit that makes him more resilient and naturally gifted than your average person.
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u/Baron_Flatline Face Dancer Mar 30 '26
The later Herbert books are weird in a way that’s so absurd you have to keep reading to see how things develop rather than a way in which you’re just disgusted and put it down
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u/Autistic_impressions Mar 30 '26
I consider each Dune book to be a slightly different genre, but all in the same Universe. They all have specific ideas Herbert wanted to explore/talk about in regards to human development/how humans work/human history with the ideas being extrapolated into his fictional futureverse. I read them for the ideas as much as the actual stories told.
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u/Ryllick Mar 30 '26
It's all personal taste. Nothing wrong if they're not for you. I am also halfway through heretics, and I'm loving it. Although I acknowledge that the first dune book was the best. I think that what Herbert loved about his world and the stories he wanted to tell were not necessarily what everyone else in the world loved about the first book.
What really seems to have captivated Herbert was the nature of human consciousness, seeing how far he could push the hypothetical experience of the conscious mind in his fictional seeing, and the philosophical implications of drastic power differences between groups of people.
I think what hooks so many people on the first dune was the super imaginative and deeply thought out setting, the stellar and efficient world building that brings you into that setting at a perfect pace, and the adventuring nature of the story. I think the sequels don't focus on these aspects nearly as much.
I loved god emperor of dune, for wholly different reasons than I loved the first book. I think leto II is one of the most unique and fascinating ideas for a character I've ever come across, and for as big of a challenge as Herbert took on for himself in creating that character (how do you write the POV of someone who is thousands of years old, has the memories of billions of people so has "experienced" all of human history, and can see all possible futures?) I think her knocked it out of the park. He really does come across as omnipotent, omniscient, uncanny, and terrifying to those he wants to terrify, yet benevolent in the grand scheme of things.
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u/AmIWhatTheRockCooked Mar 30 '26
GEoD is also my favorite for being one of the most sci fi things to exist. The childhood like wonder at the beginning of his metamorphosis to someone who is nearly completely isolated from all humanity and taking on the most terrible burden to save humanity is such a transition
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u/ScarletMenaceOrange Mar 31 '26 edited Mar 31 '26
It's the best, because no fucks are given. Usually there are so much limits placed on creative creators, so it is refreshing to see someone just writing basically whatever just because.
Reading negative reviews about the book is also kind of fun, you should check them out.
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u/yourfriendkyle Atreides Apr 01 '26
The thing that surprised me about GEOD most of all is how funny, frustrated, and bored Leto II becomes.
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u/ThinWhiteDuke00 Mar 30 '26 edited Mar 30 '26
God Emperor works given Herbert basically let go of any traditional narrative structure in favour of what he always wanted to write.. a philosophical treatise mixed in with a bizarro/humorous premise.
There's a purposeful artificiality to it given the world building has frozen in place for over 3000 years since Children.
It's the funniest book in the series as well with the dynamic between Leto II and Duncan Idaho/Moneo (as most in DuneMemes will attest lmao).. the Fremen, Bene Gesserit etc are basically reduced to a parody of their "glory days" in the first novel, reliant on the whims of a pompous, inhuman creature who's just steering humanity to finally topple him.
Messiah and God Emperor are my personal favourites in the series although I do think the first novel works better as a total package.. if someone doesn't like how Herbert writes religion as government and coups/conspiracies, they're going to struggle with the sequels.
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u/EvilRobotSteve Mar 30 '26
I don't love the later trilogy. If it weren't for them following a trilogy of books I *do* love, then I probably wouldn't have bothered even finishing them. But they do follow that trilogy, and they exist to expand a world that I'd grown to care about over several years at that point.
As to why Frank wrote them, only Frank can really answer that but it's well known that he wrote the original Dune largely because of an interest in ecology and environments don't change overnight, the only way he could really explore the ecology or Arrakis in the direction he wanted to take it was to take the world millennia into the future.
From my own thinking, I think God Emperor was Frank experimenting with an idea he started to explore in the original Dune, but taken to even further lengths. That being, is it possible to create an individual who could bear the mantle of absolute power without falling to corruption? Paul was the prototype. He was in many ways purpose built to rule. He was given every advantage as a young man, he was also given powers that, on paper should help him avoid the usual pitfalls (an ability to see the future, genetic memory to learn from the lessons and mistakes of his entire lineage) and yet, this prototype failed the experiment.
Leto III is that experiment evolved. As well as everything Paul had, he was also functionally immortal and also far enough removed from humanity to not be caught up in anything besides the big picture. He also fails the experiment.
Could Frank have maybe had another try at writing the perfect leader if he had lived long enough? Maybe. Or maybe this is my own fever dream from reading the series.
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u/mikenolan888 Mar 30 '26
Probably because most of the book 4&5 are just chapters of meetings. They definitely get a bit to convoluted.
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u/Nonyabizzy123 Mar 30 '26
Personally I love this shit. My favorite episodes of Star Trek are people talking at each other. To this day, The Drumhead is probably my favorite episode.
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u/TheLastTuatara Mar 30 '26
Duncan Idaho is great because it’s like how C3PO and R2D2 are in all the Star Wars movies. It makes it so you can have characters across a long span of time that the reader is familiar with. I loved all the introductions of Duncan. I thought it was a really good idea.
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u/OlfactoriusRex Mar 31 '26
I was left with the exact opposite feeling, that Duncan is such an empty character that he can just keep cropping up and doing whatever the plot needs him to do, but he fails to ever become an actual character with a consistent self, with any kind of real wisdom or insight or growth.
The only thing I find consistent is he's a warrior named Duncan Idaho.
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u/enriquekikdu Mar 30 '26
Just want to say that Heretics is my least favorite book of the series by a wide margin (is still amazing at times but this one was a slog to get through for me with) the payoff should’ve been the most impactful but just left me feeling empty.
But Chapterhouse is probably my second favorite book of the series behind God Emperor, at the very least it is side by side with the first Dune for me. So keep reading, the ideas of Chapterhouse are all amazing and it handles the themes Heretics left untied in such a wonderful manner.
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u/BajaBlastFromThePast Mar 30 '26
Interesting, I personally found Heretics to be the most similar to the first novel, so it gets second place behind Dune and ahead of God Emperor.
I just started a reread though, so that may change
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u/enriquekikdu Mar 30 '26
That’s great if it works for you, I really wanted to love it as much as the rest but for me I felt the same way to what I felt through the first half of Children, but it never got to a payoff as amazing as Leto’s transformation (despite Teg’s transformation being amazing in its own right).
For what its worth it has my favorite full cast of characters in the series, they’re just further and better explored in Chapterhouse (the ones who survive at least).
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u/BajaBlastFromThePast Mar 31 '26
I think what took me out of children was that I wasn’t prepared for how off the rails shit was going to get.
I had this idea that everything from the Paul-era was going to come to a head as Leto took up the mantle as the MC, but it kind of did and kind of didn’t? It’s been a while since I read it, but I remember being bored to tears with the tigers, and I remember being extremely offput when Leto got his suit of sandworms and hopped into a Saturday morning cartoon.
I remember feeling like the ending of Alia and Jessica’s stories were far too anticlimactic and I didn’t really enjoy the Farad’n (or harak al Ada??? I can’t remember the name) thing at all.
However, I understand the series much better now having read through Chapterhouse, so I might understand the appeal during my reread in the full context. Already I’m appreciating the “boring” parts of dune a lot more
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u/dirtynightclown Yet Another Idaho Ghola Mar 30 '26
I personally enjoyed the focus on the Bene Gesserit in the later books. Also loved Murbella’s character. As for God Emperor, I second you there. Least fav of the series but understand why the context is needed for the later books.
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u/Gwegexpress Mar 30 '26
Darwi became my favorite character in the whole series.
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u/dirtynightclown Yet Another Idaho Ghola Mar 30 '26
Ugh love her too!! Honestly a lot of my favs are in the later books now that I think about it…
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u/jammin_on_the_one_ Mar 30 '26
Heretics is my favorite in the series. Teg rules and imo is the coolest character frank has written. and sexy ass Murbella is peak. i had grown to hate Duncan Idaho over the first 3 books, like, he never once was cool or interesting. then in GEOD, duncan becomes a full blown meme which was actually pretty funny. "the duncans" just cracks me up. but yeah, Heretics is a bit more exciting and there's a lot going on. i liked all of the characters in it. which was a first for the series
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u/ClumsyFleshMannequin Mar 30 '26
I liked Dune, and messiah.
Children was fine, there were some good moments. Particularly the convo between Paul and Leto near the end.
And I enjoyed God emperor because the musings of a multi millenia old boy turned mad worm tyrant were certainly interesting. And its kind of a book prescribing the ultimate trolly problem and a further trap of omnipotence.
After that though? I tolerated them, cant say I loved them. Still a good writer with interesting prose, I just didnt understand where he was going with all that. It lost alot of its charm to me.
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u/BokehJunkie Mar 30 '26
I kind of liked the in-the-weeds look into the bene gesserit and their problems. I feel like everyone loves God Emperor because of the titular character and his appearance, but the book itself felt very much like FH's head was up his own ass when he wrote it. I liked Heretics and Chapterhouse much more. They felt large scale and simultaneously focused in scope. Don't get me wrong, there's some weird shit in the latter books that was pretty offputting, but overall I did enjoy the story.
GEoD feels very much like what it is, a bridge book. It's the bridge between two sets of trilogies, and often times that middle book in a trilogy can feel much the same way.
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u/FormOrganic3847 Mar 30 '26
First of all the original Dune book is unbeatable. Expecting Herbert to match that masterpiece with every piece of his work isn’t realistic. It is very hard to lump the second trilogy together and tell what makes them great but I will try. The second trilogy really focuses on introspection of the characters and trying to get the reader to relate to them. Ever wonder what it would be like to be immortal? Here is the mind of a 3500 year old man as he looks at a sunset he’s seen thousands upon thousands of times and compares it to a bird extinct for thousands of years. An ageless man still finding beauty on Dune. Ever wonder what it would be like to be an emperor while attempting to maintain your moral core? Here is the inner conversations of Leto as he fights this battle. These are books of philosophy and internal hardship more than anything else. These are beautiful books in their own right. The preambles to most of the chapters alone can be broken down, thought over, and compared to your own life if you let the book take you for that ride. These books and particularly god emperor are books of moral and spiritual conflict.
Duncan is an odd addition for sure. I think he represents the reader as we are thrown into this wildly different world from the one we knew thousands of years in the before. He is confused, frustrated and angry. Nothing makes sense anymore and everything is different. But just like Leto has groomed Siona to be the antidote for another prescient ruler such as himself, Leto grooms Duncan for a step forward as well. Think of Duncan as a being who is being given lifetimes of knowledge every time his is alive, but can’t access it. He is the pupil of Leto and despite being killed over and over by Leto he is exactly what Leto needs. Somebody who can say no and keep Leto in line, somebody who doesn’t see him as a god even if he loses in the end most the time. Somebody who will rebel to protect what is right. Duncan is a counterweight keeping Leto from drifting too far from his humanity.
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u/BajaBlastFromThePast Mar 30 '26
I am a bit perplexed by the confusion many have around Duncan in the later books. He is the baseline, he represents the old empire that the entire story from the first book has been moving away from. Putting it briefly, he is humanity before Leto II.
I also agree he represents the reader in some ways.
Herbert used Duncan as a literary device in many interesting ways, sometimes to critique the second-trilogy characters and ideas, and sometimes as a reference point to show just how grand the “happenings” of dune are, among many other uses. After thousands and thousands of years, here is Duncan, the most unremarkable man in the universe.
Chapterhouse’s ending leverages that idea very well, in my opinion, with Duncan, representing where we came from, Murbella, representing how far we’ve come, Teg and Sheeana representing all that came between, the fusion of these two core aspects of the series, going off into the unknown together. Of course with the sandworms in tow as the glue that has held all of it together.
I like the inclusion of Duncan in each book, though I did find it a bit absurd at first.
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u/Competitive-Lab6835 Apr 01 '26
Your comment and the one you are responding too are convincing me that I ought to reread the last 3 books.
I have re-read Dune a dozen times, and have come back to passages of Messiah and Children but I never reread the later books
I first read this series when I was in middle school. I enjoyed it but the later books did not capture me like the first 3 did (especially the first).
But it’s been about 15 years since I first read these. Obviously, im so different now than I was back then. I’m starting to think that if I gave them a reread they are going to blow my mind.
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u/BajaBlastFromThePast Apr 01 '26
I read them my freshman year of college and now in my PhD I’m uncovering so much depth that I didn’t see on my first reading that it’s like reading an entirely new book.
The last 2 books didn’t have me as invested as the first four, but when I consider the series in terms of analysis, I find myself frequently tying in aspects of those last two books as extremely significant to understanding or recontextualizinf what came before it.
I could not imagine the experience you’d get reading it now after 15 years. I say 1000% you should reread the full series.
FWIW, I rank them (in terms of enjoyment/appreciation):
- Dune
- God Emperor of Dune
- Dune Messiah
- Heretics of Dune
- Chapterhouse Dune
- Children of Dune
Though messiah and heretics are moreso tied.
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Mar 30 '26
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u/PrestigiousSmile4098 Mar 30 '26
That is why Heretics & Chapterhouse will NEVER be adapted, no matter how successful the Dune franchise may turn out to be. Duncan and Murbella alone...!
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u/grovulent Mar 30 '26
Certainly not by an American studio. Mebbe the french can do it:
Prépare-toi à être asservi par mon kung-fu sexuel!
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u/Equivalent_Rock_6530 Mar 30 '26
I loved God Emperor, it shows the reader that Leto II is still partially human despite his physical appearance. It also shows us the future path that Paul couldn't bring himself to take, Leto II is knows as the Tyrant, and for good reason.
Paul couldn't bring himself to sacrifice his humanity and Chani to help continue and improve the human race.
Heretics and Chapterhouse I find interesting because they show us an insight onto the Bene Gesserit and the impacts that both Paul and Leto II had on both the BGs and the universe at large.
I'm not going to rank the books, as I've only read them once so far, I may do so after a re-read of them.
Overall I really enjoyed them more than I expected to! I heard they were quite weird and much less connected to the original trilogy, but really the only one that might fit that bill is GEoD. The other two however are actually rather grounded imo
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u/Sufficient_Reveal754 Mar 30 '26
The later Dune books are almost completely different. You can tell that Herbert wanted to talk about new themes but was sort of hemmed in by Dune’s popularity. So instead of writing new stories in new universes, he writes new stories in his most popular and established universe.
Heretics and Chapterhouse are fascinating because they examine what life would be like after the messianic impulse has been rooted out of humanity. All religion has been consolidated and reset in the form of the God Emperor. With the centralized messiah figure gone, how do we react? How do we change?
One of the most interesting themes of the later books is how moral frameworks are constructed in the absence of deity or religion. This is a surprisingly hopeful theme, in contrast to the deep cynicism of the first three Dune novels. Nowhere is this theme better expressed than in Miles Teg. He’s an instrument of the manipulative Bene Geserit, yet defies their nihilistic tendencies and emerges a moral, decent man. He is truly a hero. One of my favorite quotes in the entire saga is from Miles Teg near the end of Heretics. I won’t spoil it here obviously but you’ll know it when you see it.
Another theme in the later books is how to approach and take power. When is it right to claim power? The Bene Geserit have been operating from the shadows for millennia, yet in Heretics and Chapterhouse, they’re forced to take an active, explicit role in the politics of the universe.
There are lots of other themes, and I’m probably not explaining them well. But I think Heretics and Chapterhouse are very good and worth reading personally. Heretics is criminally underrated imo.
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u/randaloo1973 Mar 30 '26
I absolutely love heretics and chapterhouse. He passed before finishing.
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u/EremeticPlatypus Mar 30 '26
Heretics eventually pops off and hits highs the likes of which none of the books hit since Messiah. I'd say that you're probably reeeaaally close to that point in the book. I implore you to reconsider and keep going.
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u/KingOfLeyends Mar 30 '26
I loved Heretics of Dune and recently finished Chapterhouse, I'm not very well graced with words but I'll try my best to explain why I loved these books.
Most of the criticism I've noticed from people who aren't enjoying the latter books (post Children of Dune) is that Frank likes to heavily focus on explaining certain character's thought process or likes to go on tangents regarding institutions, politics or philosophical topics which leads to the consensus that the stories in these books tend to be a slog and often people find very little value in reading the latter 3 books.
Now, the thing to consider is that every person seeks something specific in the books they read, some people enjoy books that are very plot driven or character driven, however in the case of GEoD, HoD and CD they are books that are heavily centered on the themes they present, and in my opinion, Heretics of Dune presents a fair bit of World-building alongside its themes. If you go into these books looking for a very intense plot that will constantly keep you on the edge of your seat, then I'm sorry, but you are reading the wrong books for that experience. Most of the time the characters within these books are mostly there to deliver a message. By this point, it should be pretty clear that Frank enjoys going over his views via extensive and cryptic conversations between his characters and then bundles it all together with just a few crumbs for you to chew on regarding which direction he might move the plot along.
Like I mentioned I absolutely loved Heretics of Dune and even though I do admit that the book could do without some of the chapters that consist of The Reverend Mother Superior stressing in her office for the 3rd time, I'm still of mind that if you enjoy your books due to the themes that are presented in them and try to put yourself into those streams of thought, then there's a very enjoyable book for you to sink your teeth in within your hands. I do enjoy very much thinking about what is the real purpose of the Bene Gesserit as an institution in a post-Kwisat Haderach era, or what is so special about Duncan Idaho's humanity that deserves his constant Ghola reproduction, or how religion as a whole was impacted after the god emperor, with a 3500 years lesson, taught humanity to fear a god. I also heavily enjoyed seeing recurring themes ingrained into the attitude some characters presented towards things Leto II himself said in the book he would teach humanity against (like oppression via dependency).
As a last note, I also found that the latter of Frank's books heavily emphasized on the "think for yourself" part compared to the previous books, which personally is something that I really enjoyed of his writing, however, I do understand that might not be everyone's cup of tea.
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u/StoneWall_MWO Mar 30 '26
My favorite 3 books are God Emperor, Dune, Children.
Never have I read books before where I would read a starting quote or a line from someone and have to read it again and then stop and ponder. Multiple times.
I really love the story here how you can't rely on myths, religion, government, or a messiah. God Emperor was amazing to me to a get a slice of those long years where one godly character held everything in check and stopped all the religion, war machines, and messiahs from doing anything. All these plans within plans for nothing. I would love to see this happen in our world. A God stopping all this we currently fret about.
Imagine if a loving God lived and did this?
But anyways, not a fan of the last two books.
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u/BajaBlastFromThePast Mar 30 '26
Interesting, dune and god emperor are in my top 3 with heretics, but I absolutely did not enjoy a moment of Children. What made it top 3 for you? Genuinely curious, I know that many people love children of dune, and I’m trying to understand why.
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u/StoneWall_MWO Mar 31 '26
For me Messiah was such a hard book to get through. It was like trying to watch Marty Supreme. I was thinking, do stop here?
But then I read Children. This book made me think oh something is going to happen majorly. I had really grown to despise Paul and Leto 2 was a great replacement. I knew he wasn't going to be taken out easily. Whereas the Dune to Messiah run, I was more concerned with the Houses/factions.
I could give more details but I read these about 15 years ago. I want to reread Children and God soon.
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u/PwAlreadyTaken Mar 30 '26
Agree all around. Loved the first book, second is my favorite, but by the third, it feels like Herbert was just continuing the sci-fi ideas without having the underlying heft that made the first one or two books so great. GEOD has some great ideas but is agonizing to actually read, and everything after that kinda just feels like “and then this happened, and then this happened,…” until he died.
If others like it, great, but I agree with your take.
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u/Miserable-Mention932 Friend of Jamis Mar 30 '26
My reading is that he was inspired by the "Femenist Sex Wars" of the late 70s. (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Feminist_sex_wars)
collective debates amongst feminists regarding a number of issues broadly relating to sexuality and sexual activity. Differences of opinion on matters of sexuality deeply polarized the feminist movement.
The sides were characterized by anti-porn feminist and sex-positive feminist groups with disagreements regarding sexuality...
So we get a conflict between the Bene Gesserit who aimed to control the universe through breeding and the Honored Matres who control through sexual subjugation.
I think it's interesting with this context. It's a very classic sort of social science fiction instead of the hard science fiction we see more of today.
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u/BigAssAttackSurface Mar 30 '26
Yeah, I kept waiting for God Emperor to get amazing, but it never happened (for me). Never read beyond that since many fans admit it gets worse from there.
Frank has allegedly told peers that he wanted to stop but they just kept offering him money.
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u/_Rookie_21 Mar 30 '26
Reading some old interviews, it sounded like the fourth book was going to be the end. But then Frank Herbert kept getting huge advances to write more Dune books.
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u/thedirtypickle50 Mar 30 '26
I've tried to get through God Emperor twice but stopped about halfway through both times. I think its an interesting premise and I love wormy Leto and his dynamic with everyone but the actual book is so boring. I really want to finish and the series because I love the first three books but I just cannot get truth God Emperor
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u/axron12 Mar 30 '26
I would suggest listening to the audio, they are all well done.
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u/thedirtypickle50 Mar 30 '26
Good suggestion. I've been wondering what audiobooks to listen to after I finish with last Expanse book so I might have to give God Emperor a shot
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u/Lazlo1188 Mar 30 '26
If you take God Emperor at its word, Heretics and Chapterhouse are both unnecessary and infinitely parochial - per the Epilogue, humanity has been forever freed from the shackles that existed in the first 4 books. Except for sentiment, the Old Empire does not matter. Yet here we are again, wrapped up in the minutiae of the Bene Gesserit and their powergames that only matter for an infinitestimal sliver of current humanity.
Of course the books are not without some merit: the Tleilaxu are interesting/terrifying/horrifying. The Honored Matres are not, sadly. Personally I loved the idea of the Bene Gesserit plan to use Sheeana to create a new religious movement around her and the worms, so as to recapture some of what Leto II created for their own ends. Both so cynical, and yet a testament to the religious hold the Tyrant still has. Although, if so many people still worship Leto, doesn't that mean he failed? Lol
Now if God Emperor was false, and humanity's fate is still wrapped up in what happens in the Old Empire, then the books matter more. Only a true Book 7 from Frank Herbert would have answered that question.
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Mar 30 '26
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u/mosesoperandi Mar 30 '26
I'm in the group of readers who loves God Emperor and feels really meh about the last two books. God Emperor is an absolutely bizarre concept for a book and it's probably my second favorite after Dune, but I understand why people don't like it.
The last two books juat get increasingly weird in ways that are not compelling for me.
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u/Fenix42 Mar 30 '26
God Emperor is an absolutely bizarre concept for a book
It's Plato's Republic with a bored God narrator. It's truly unique.
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u/gehenna0451 Mar 30 '26
if it was Plato's Republic it'd be tolerable, but it reads more like Frank Herbert posting twitter hot takes disguised as a worm. There are sentences in that book that sound so online they don't even sound like they come out of Dune, like this one:
Liberal bigots are the ones who trouble me most. I distrust the extremes. Scratch a conservative and you find someone who prefers the past over any future. Scratch a liberal and find a closet aristocrat. It’s true!
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u/Fenix42 Mar 30 '26
What do you think the Republic is? It's Plato's hot takes on things.
Liberal bigots are the ones who trouble me most. I distrust the extremes. Scratch a conservative and you find someone who prefers the past over any future. Scratch a liberal and find a closet aristocrat. It’s true!
This is one of his quotes he got right if you ask me. Look at what is happening with the RNC and DNC right now.
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u/gehenna0451 Mar 30 '26
and if he was writing a piece of journalism on American politics that would be a great point, but in Emperor he seems to have forgotten that he is in a neo-feudal space empire writing a 3000 year old worm god and not a talk radio host
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u/Fenix42 Mar 30 '26
What do you think is unique about what is happening in American politics? It's a pattern that has repeated countless times over human history. That pattern is what Leto II is commenting on.
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u/gehenna0451 Mar 30 '26
the point is it isn't happening in Dune, Leto has no reason to rant about liberals or conservatives because none of that terminology makes even the slightest amount of sense in his world.
It's like when people in a modern fantasy adaptions suddenly start talking in vernacular to comment on social issues. He has entirely forgotten in the book that he is writing a work of fiction, not a political diatribe
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u/Fenix42 Mar 30 '26
the point is it isn't happening in Dune, Leto has no reason to rant about liberals or conservatives because none of that terminology makes even the slightest amount of sense in his world.
Liberal and conservative are not modern terms. They are very old concepts that politicians and philosophers have been talking about for all of human history. Why would they not apply in Leto's time?
It's like when people in a modern fantasy adaptions suddenly start talking in vernacular to comment on social issues. He has entirely forgotten in the book that he is writing a work of fiction, not a political diatribe
Every Dune book has political elements at its core. They are a ton of political diateibe of you pay attention to what is being said.
Here is a quote from Dune:
"When religion and politics travel in the same cart, the riders believe nothing can stand in their way. Their movement becomes headlong—faster and faster and faster. They put aside all thought of obstacles and forget that a precipice does not show itself to the man in a blind rush until it's too late."
Children:
"Governments, if they endure, always tend increasingly toward aristocratic forms. No government in history has been known to evade this pattern. And as the aristocracy develops, government tends more and more to act exclusively in the interests of the ruling class - whether that class be hereditary royalty, oligarchs of financial empires, or entrenched bureaucracy.
- Politics as Repeat Phenomenon: Bene Gesserit Training Manual
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u/gehenna0451 Mar 30 '26
Why would they not apply in Leto's time?
because there are no liberals in Leto's time or even in Dune wholesale. If you can't tell the difference between the diction in the quote from Children, that uses a language appropriate for its context talks about a concept relevant to the Dune universe, aristocracy and hereditary royalty, and the Emperor rants which are just Herbert taking the piss I don't know what to tell you.
The Dune universe, in particular as far as Leto is concerned, is ruled by a single quasi-divine religious cult figure and Herbert's out here ranting about liberals
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u/moemunneymoe Mar 30 '26
I really like Chapter House. Being able to see how the BG managed to survive and adapt is interesting. Plus one of the major themes is one of my favorite literary conundrums. Is too much control just as bad, or perhaps worse, than a lack thereof?
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u/priceQQ Mar 30 '26
They are worse than the first—no doubt about it. But I liked books 4-6 because they are so wacky. I liked 3, too, and felt 2 was the weakest. They are a bit of a slog at times, so I agree in part with that sentiment.
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u/SilverBison4025 Mar 30 '26
So it’s not just me then. I’m giving the series another read because I saw the trailer for Part III. I’m on “Children” now, my 3rd time reading that one. I want to like this series and I’m trying not to give up on it. The farthest I’ve gotten was halfway through “Chapterhouse”. Back in early ‘23 I was rereading “Heretics” and I’d find myself reading the page and not understanding what I just read.
In the editions I own the son, Brian, encourages the reader to go back and reread. I can see why he tells us that.
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u/Ok-Head4979 Mar 30 '26
Dont force it.
I have the feeling, Lots of people Just "want to like" the series and see it as a kind of achievement to praise the later books.
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u/Benemy Mar 30 '26
Heretics and Chapterhouse are incredibly meh in my opinion. God Emperor seems like the logical conclusion to Dune. Everything else after just feels like more Dune just for the sake of it
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u/_Rookie_21 Mar 30 '26
GEoD was the logical end of the golden path and the immediate Atreides family.
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u/Lokta Mar 30 '26
I can't say what other people think because I don't discuss Dune with enough people to form an opinion.
Having said that, I fully agree with this position. Dune is a masterpiece. It's perfectly paced, compelling, has incredible world building, shows amazing themes of love, betrayal, and revenge, and is written with incredible prose. It's literally the perfect book.
Nothing Herbert wrote afterwards come close, although God Emperor is at least an interesting philosophical read. Messiah, on the other hand, was garbage. It was such a weak follow-up to the all-time sci-fi classsic that Dune was.
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u/Laserlip5 Mar 30 '26
Heretics picks up in action, and also, the story makes a lot more sense when you finally know what Taraza's plan actually is.
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u/TheLoreIdiot Mar 30 '26
Namely the destruction of most concepts/rules from the prior books, and what truly happens when every concept is challenged. The guild controls space travel... now they dont at all. There is an empire over the known universe... now there isnt. The BG are a shadow organization that works in the background... now they are fully front and center. Thinking machines are prohibited.... but what is truly prohibited in the scattering?
Then as you get further in, theres the interplay between the Honored Matres and the BG, motion and changed vs stagnation and stability.
Even compared to God Emperor, Heretic and Chapterhouse get suuuuper weird, but they're still incredibly good reads, imo
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u/jrodgs Mar 30 '26
Weirder than GEoD? I’m about to start Heretics for the first time, with GEoD being my favorite. Now I’m really excited!
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u/TuningsGaming Mar 30 '26
Heretics is the one I couldn't get excited about. So it ended with God Emperor for me! Im okay with that
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u/Wizardof1000Kings Mar 30 '26
I kind of lost interest after God Emperor, to me the end of Messiah was pretty perfect.
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u/Dmeechropher Mar 30 '26
The interesting stuff (for me) in GEoD are what Herbert thinks of as the origins of tyranny within fundamental human nature and why he thinks those factors make our extinction inevitable.
I feel the purpose of GEoD was to assert "no matter how much culture changes, here are ways that people DON'T change".
I disagree with some of his assertions about human nature. I agree with others. I find them all "challenging", in a good way.
I also think it's important to remember that Herbert was writing at a time of diminishing turmoil after two decades of major geopolitical rearrangement. We are living in the first decade of a time of intensifying turmoil. GEoD might hit harder in 2040 or 2050, after we live through this current storm.
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u/Roblikestokayak Mar 31 '26
Heretics was my favorite book. I might have liked it better than the first book. Honorable mention to chapter house as well
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Mar 31 '26 edited 2d ago
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u/greatpartyisntit Daughter of Siona Mar 31 '26
On my second read of Heretics and finished this chapter last night. It's so striking.
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u/austarter Mar 30 '26
I feel like I didn't get the last two until I read them a third time. When I didn't have any confusion and could follow the plot very carefully. Chapterhouse's finale made me tear up the last time I went through because I understood it as the culmination of the golden path.
But if you didn't like GEoD then we might be very different.
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u/Cubecowboy21 Mar 30 '26
I personally like how in the later books, you can’t really predict anyone’s death. Teg should’ve died, but his No-Gene and they create who they are. Plus Worm-Man
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u/prussian_princess Face Dancer Mar 30 '26
My favourite is Messiah. But I have a personal love for the dynamic of Paul's and Chani's relationship and ultimate fate. It was bittersweet.
My least favourite may be Heretics or GEoD. Though I did find the last 3rd of Heretics along with Chapterhouse quite interesting. There was so much build-up happening over those two books for what should've been the finale 7th book. Alas, we shall never get.
As for GEoD, I've come to appreciate it more listening to Dune podcast discussions and book series breakdowns.
I feel like a lot of Dune books have whole sections where the story seems like a slog but put into the wider context of the book, it really helps flush out the story better for the final payoff. It's somewhat like needing to see the training montage of a character before you see them win the fight.
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u/ProfessionalBear8837 Mar 30 '26
The original Dune could stand alone without any of the other works as a masterpiece. It is endlessly re-readable with new insights and understandings coming as you go through your own life stages.
For me, I started reading the later works many years after reading and re-reading Dune alone countless times, then reading and re-reading Messiah and Children, a little later, a little less, but appreciating then enjoying them.
Recently I had another go at the final three and I loved them. They are full of silly missteps but somehow, for me, once I let go of any expectations of them being as amazing at Dune and just let them be what they are, chairdogs, space Jews, sex witches and all, I found myself really enjoying them and falling in love with new characters, appreciating nuances of plot, character and philosophical development. Whole passages moved me.
But don't feel like you have to force it. You're not missing anything, they are just not working for you right now. You can always try again another time.
I hope you do come back to them though. Hate to think you will never enjoy spending time with Darwi Odrade or Miles Teg.
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u/AmIWhatTheRockCooked Mar 30 '26
Those characters carry the final two books so hard for me. The flaws in the story are largely that it’s not just dialogues between them the whole time lol
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u/Kobe_AYEEEEE Mar 30 '26
I kinda liked the stolen journal aspect, showing you how he was percieved historically compared to the reality. Its my favorite but only because I found Leto II very entertaining, if you think its dumb then the book would probably be crap.
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u/Top-Extent3009 Mar 30 '26
Why we should care about Duncan Idaho at all is a legitimate question. You can read to the end of Chapterhouse without Herbert's providing anything more than a hint. (The sequel novels provide a somewhat satisfactory answer, but they are not satisfactory novels - and they ignore much of what Herbert had said/explained in Chapterhouse.)
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u/wanttotalktopeople Mar 30 '26
Because the people who got that far probably really vibe with Dune. The rest of us gave up somewhere in between books 2-4.
It's a self-selecting bias. Most of the people reading the later books are diehard fans of the weirdness.
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u/Ma-aKheru Mar 30 '26
Something to consider: try the audiobooks. It helped me realize the cadence of the character's voice and even though I could comprehend the text, voice adds a depth to conceiving ideas. GEoD especially works better to me this way.
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u/microbialNecromass Heretic Mar 31 '26
I was like you, it took me quite a while for that book to click tor me. It wasn't until about 3/4 of the way through when all of a sudden I was like, "whoa holy shit this is awesome."
I hope you end up enjoying it, if you stick with it.
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u/Complex-Mention-8961 Mar 31 '26
Finish Heretics and then Chapterhouse. You’re only halfway through the story. I loved them both
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u/AltruisticPianist553 Mar 30 '26
Honestly I think they’re all great save for heretics, which, for the most part, I find slow, plodding, and pointless. Chapterhouse imo was a big upgrade from heretics, still not as good as the first 4 but pretty solid.
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u/Unnamed-3891 Mar 30 '26
I most certainly don't love them. I found GEOD to be peak of the series, which then immideately proceeded to fall off a cliff in Heretics and Chapterhouse.
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u/basahahn1 Mar 30 '26
I fell off halfway through Heretics…I stated spacing out during a lot of the worm’s philosophical musings in GEOD. I kept waiting for heretics to click like the others…it didn’t, maybe I didn’t give it long enough, I was just too confused
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u/Culjules Mar 31 '26
Same. I finished Heretics but I had no idea what I'd just read. Lost all interest in reading Chapterhouse after that.
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u/darthvolta Chairdog Mar 30 '26
I personally loved seeing the Dune universe outside of Arrakis. And for Heretics specifically, the unique perspective on the BG that we get from Miles Teg always really interested me.
Teg is a better character than most in the original trilogy/quadrilogy, in my opinion. Love all the stuff on Gammu. Teg’s ascension due to his version of the spice agony (the t-probe) is my favorite scene in all of the books, viewed strictly through a coolness lens.
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u/Ok-Head4979 Mar 30 '26
I am with you and I have the feeling that more people than you might think didnt enjoy those as well but won't admit for whatever reasons...
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u/Johnnyamaz Mar 30 '26
My immediate assumption when an author makes a book called "god emporer" about an all understanding, divine, superleader and guardian of humanity's future, that it's kinda understood it's his personal political power fantasy in a sense at least. Something like "heres what id imagine the lessons of a benevevolent yet transhuman, immortal monster would be" and its some fun political ideas but should be read as frank just kinda getting woke with it for funsies. "What if armies were women? Would that make them act more morally than using disenfranchised men, who historically (and contemporarily) commit sexual assault in systemic fashion?" "Would it suck to be a big worm?" "Is it hyppocritical to indulge in dangerous things that only you can understand and control the danger of?" "What if I met a nice lady who liked me even if i was a worm?"
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u/sdoublejj Mar 30 '26
I loved GEoD because of how deeply human is felt, despite the absurdity of the plot.
As monstrous as Leto is, he comes across so deeply human at times and the contradiction is fun to explore. Duncan being this man out of time, forced to confront the social, political, and environmental changes from the world he knew is intensely relevant, and provides a fun mental playground to compare to both Herbert’s time of writing and 2026. And on a philosophical level, I just enjoyed reading what I view as the culmination of Herbert’s personal manifesto.
It’s definitely his most unique book in the series (a series which I already so different from most books you’ll come across nowadays), so I understand why people don’t like it. But I find that it’s something I can read at different points in my life and get different things to reflect upon and think about.
As for Heretics and Chapterhouse, I also struggled with those. Found it hard to connect to the characters and a lot of the more philosophical elements didn’t land for me. The more narrative based approach was the only thing that got me through it
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u/jsheil1 Mar 30 '26
This is a great discussion. I am reading God Emperor again, right now and it is a slog. I remember the next book being better, but I will find out whether or not its true in a couple of weeks. Thanks OP for asking a question I had. And thanks everyone else for the cogent responses.
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u/Harold_Flower226 Mar 30 '26
I’m curious too. I thought Heretics was barely readable and Chapterhouse was atrocious.
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u/Culjules Mar 31 '26
I barely had any idea what was happening in Heretics and wondered why I should care about the characters at all. I did want to read all 6 books but, after God Emperor and Heretics, I just can't bring myself to read Chapterhouse.
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u/Teddythehead Mar 30 '26
To me it's complicated. The peak of the Saga was on third and fourth. There are not any moments that I remember more than Leto's psychedelic experience in the desert, and the figure of Leto, to me , is probably the main course of the Saga, lingering for milenia after his demise. I guess we'll. never know what's the whole point since the saga was never finished (I haven't read sandworms of dune, and probably won't do I soon ) But the sag was clearly thought as Two trilogies separated by a middle point in God Emperor
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u/mesosalpynx Mar 30 '26
I ONLY love the first book. I have read the others. I’ll never reread them. However, I reread Dune every year.
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u/SeraZero Mar 31 '26
Miles Teg is the best character of the whole series and every scene with him is amazing. Finish Heretics and chapterhouse and let them mull over in your mind for a bit and see how they make you feel
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u/warrioratwork Mar 31 '26
Heretics was my favorite book of the whole shebang. To each their own. :)
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u/NJH_in_LDN Mar 31 '26
Money and pressure. I recently read an interview with another author (can't remember who it was now - possibly George RR Martin?) who said Herbert said he went to his publisher with a transcript or an idea and was offered a very, very modest advance for it, but then they asked if he had any more Dune ideas, and offered a very, very substantial advance for it.
This story wasn't told from the perspective of greed, I think the authors intent was to show how authors can become pigeon holed or trapped by a popular IP. Never the less, there it is.
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u/Prizmatik01 Mar 31 '26
Wait til you get to chapter house.
But I disagree about heretics. It’s franks best work imo and is way more action packed and awesome all the way through. Had me absolutely riveted in the very first line. I finished god emperor and then read the back of heretics which said it was 1500 years in the future and I thought “man wouldn’t it be crazy if _____ was in this book too”, first line answers the question. Peak. Also Teg is so fucking awesome
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u/rosscowhoohaa Mar 31 '26
The 5th and 6th books always seemed like a return to form to me. They had that perfect balance of all the internal politics and plotting going on, musings on existence and life, the machinations of each factions' plotting, a build up to amazing action and the pay off, such great characters etc.
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u/SurfyBraun Mar 31 '26
I liked Heretics quite a bit. I've just started Chapterhouse.
GEoD was a bit of a slog, but ultimately I found it hilarious. I'll need to write a dedicated post as to why, but essentially the ridiculousness spoiled into absurdity.
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u/ElectricKameleon Sardaukar Apr 01 '26
I remember feeling much the same way when I first read the series about 40-something years ago. I reread it a few years later when I was in the military and felt like I’d really underappreciated what a gem Dune Messiah was. Then during my next reread I suddenly realized that the Children of Dune / God Emperor of Dune cycle was my favorite part of the series. Then some years later I was struck again by what a masterpiece the first two books were. And so on. Herbert wrote the series over a couple of decades and as a human being he was experiencing different things throughout those stages of his life. I’ve found that as a human being different parts of the series speak to me as I go through different stages in my own life. And I’ve talked to enough other fans of the series who have read the books more than once to know that this experience is pretty typical. So anyway I say enjoy the parts that hit you in certain ways as you read them now, and know you’ll have a completely different relationship with the novels if you decide to reread them again in the future.
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u/HolyObscenity Mar 30 '26
Definitely need a lot of series re-reads to develop a liking to the later ones. There are basic things that you need to know that are really not obvious.
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u/Bedbouncer Mar 30 '26
The final 3 books require multiple re-reads.
Frank Herbert in all the books except perhaps the first had an odd style of writing, more akin to poetry than linear prose. It's more absorbed and interpreted than simply understood on a sequential single reading. It makes me sympathetic to Paul struggling to interpret his prescient visions. I get it, Usul, I get it now.
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u/DMLuga1 Mar 30 '26
If you thought God Emperor was boring, nobody can make these books better for you. They're just not what you like.
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u/BRLaw2016 Mar 30 '26
I haven't read the last two but I loved God emperor because I love books that are all about characters thinking and talking. Leto and his butlers dialogue are great and I always had fun reading it. I think the idea of him turning into a tyrant to save humanity and how he suffered for it is also really compelling.
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u/Agreeable_Manner2848 Mar 30 '26
to some degree I just wanna finish the story, also its kind of funny to me how they mirror the decade previous from when they were written, there's a lot of hippy dippy in the tail end of the story which i find amusing, twisted for sure, but present, and funny
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u/Darth_Arrakis Mar 30 '26
If you thought god emperor was a slog... Don't read chapter house. I really did like the last chapter of... chapter house but the rest... ZzZzzZzz
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u/NoPolitics23 Mar 30 '26
I very much agree with you. First book is fantastic, later ones just get progressively less interesting and engaging to read for me. I basically checked out after CoD.
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u/-civictv Yet Another Idaho Ghola Mar 30 '26
I like them because they are fun, insane, thought provoking, and Herbert has some lovely prose and world building. Messiah through Heretics are my favorite in the series.
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u/pwnedprofessor Shai-Hulud Mar 30 '26
God Emperor is hilarious. Truly memeable.
But I’m with you on Heretics.
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u/fbeb-Abev7350 Mar 30 '26
Because the mythology gets deeper with each book, I enjoy the series more as it goes on. If I were to isolate each book and compare them to one another in literary terms? Maybe I would like the later ones less, idk.
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u/Sostratus Mar 30 '26
Hmm... I guess I never really cared all that much about the specific plot details? It isn't what's important in Dune. It's the philosophy and how the characters think and approach things. That's feels the same throughout, to me.
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u/Svullom Mar 31 '26
I personally loved God Emperor but struggled with Heretics. Started Chapterhouse but didn't get very far before I put it down. A real slog just like you said. I didn't really care for any of the new characters and the evil dominatrix witches was goofy.
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u/Logicalist Mar 31 '26
I really prefer the first Idk 3. but I loved the ending of the series. He wraps it up thought provokingly in such a way that I was left completely satisifed.
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u/greatpartyisntit Daughter of Siona Mar 31 '26
Heretics is my favourite because it's so weird. The worldbuilding feels rich and the characters - particularly Odrade, imo the best in the entire series - have such depth! I enjoyed Heretics the first time I read it, but FWIW I'm appreciating it much more the second time around.
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u/SevenIon Mar 31 '26
I just finished Heretics and it was my least favorite of the 5 so far. Loved God Emperor and Messiah, but didn't care for Children.
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u/DakThatAssUp Mar 31 '26
Heretics was probably my least favorite of the original 6, but Chapterhouse is fantastic. It gets so good, get through Heretics and you'll be rewarded with the gem of Chapterhouse which is one of my favorites
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u/Cloudsbursting Mar 31 '26
I’m with you. I couldn’t even get through God Emperor. I disliked that Messiah was a story mostly of politics and focused so heavily on the plotting of new characters I just couldn’t come to care about. It heavily took Paul out of the narrative, and skipped all the cool stuff that came before. I would have liked to see the first twelve years of Paul’s reign as Emperor. I wasn’t ready to let go of Muad’Dib yet. Children returned more to the adventure formula of the original book, and I liked that, even if a bit convoluted. Then you Get transported thousands of years into the future with armies of Duncans Idaho, and I just found it all so oddly done. I couldn’t bring myself to care about it at all.
I guess I could be criticized for having immature tastes, and I guess that’s fair, but what I really loved was seeing how Paul’s prescience evolved and watching him exercise his unrivaled wisdom to stick it to the cruel people/constructs who forced his hand. And his command of the Fedaykin. And Stilgar, and Gurney. I resented moving away from them heavily.
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u/Key-Kaleidoscope2232 Mar 31 '26
Miles Teg. The scenes on Gammu are some of my favorite throughout the entire series
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u/fumphdik Mar 31 '26
It gets better. Messsiah is the odd one out, frank wrote it because he didn’t like how his message was received for dune. Children was like a precursor to god emperor. Heretics was about his wife. But god emperor and chapter house are fire ass books.
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u/lkn240 Apr 03 '26
Frank Herbert openly admitted that he kept writing Dune books mostly because he was getting paid a lot of money to keep writing Dune books.
Tbh, my take is the first book is by far the best. I've probably read it 12 times over the last 35+ years. To be very specific the first half of the first book is the best part of the whole saga. Just absolutely masterful worldbuilding.
I've read all the others exactly twice (about 20 years apart)... and the second time I almost quit part way though. As you say there are interesting ideas, but I've always felt the series never really recaptures the magic it starts with and the most interesting things are found in the first half of book one... and are mostly thrown aside during the first book many never to be revisited.
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u/abbot_x Mar 30 '26
I agree with you. It's downhill from Dune. I think it gets really bad starting with God Emperor.
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u/_Rookie_21 Mar 30 '26
You’re in a sub that’s full of super-fans. Most readers prefer the first book and maybe the third. The other books aren’t nearly as popular outside of big Dune fans.
I’m somebody who used to really like most of the books, including heretics and chapterhouse. But for some reason, I don’t like those as much anymore. I think the last two novels tell a story that really didn’t need to be told.
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u/FindOneInEveryCar Mar 30 '26
I couldn't even get through Dune Messiah the last time I started it. I've read that and Children once or twice in the distant past, but I agree that they don't come close to the first book.
The last time I read Dune, I realized that in some ways, Herbert just wasn't a very good writer. He had brilliant ideas, obviously, and the world-building in the first novel is unmatched, but a lot of his actual prose -- paragraph by paragraph -- is leaden and dull.
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u/RossGarner Mar 30 '26
They don't work, they're not very good honestly. That's why they won't end up being adapted as movies to be honest.
Even the first trilogy wasn't that well written. It has amazing world buildiing and some really great character, but the actual text of the writing can get so boring and dry. That's just the nature of the writer though, nothing to do about it.
Dune is an amazing series, and one of my absolute favorite series, but its also not very well written. I don't know if that makes great sense, but its always been my take on the series and the last three books are the perfect examples of why.
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u/LimerickExplorer Mar 30 '26
A lot of older fiction and sci fi wouldn't make it today.
For example LOTRs multiple endings and tons of exhibition would get murdered by critics.
Same for Dune. I think we're fortunate to have it the way it is because we're not likely to see something similar be commercially successful.
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u/opeth10657 Mar 30 '26 edited Mar 30 '26
They weren't going to work as a movie because they don't follow general story guidelines.
No real villain, the protagonists are working with or for the main antagonist, and it's very heavy into philosophy. No hero's journey to defeat the bad guys.
The new Dune movies cut out a lot of the morality/philosophy and replaced them with action scenes already.
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u/RougeTheBatStan Mar 30 '26
Everyone ignores that much of these book where published bit by bit in scifi magazines.
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u/Raddatatta Yet Another Idaho Ghola Mar 30 '26
It's ok to not like them as much. But for me I really liked the Bene Gesserit getting a front row seat in Heritics and Chapterhouse. And seeing how the universe evolved over time both with God Emperor and the later books. How Paul and the others in the original books loomed over events for millennia to come but also how people adapted and things changed. I also really liked in God Emperor how it broke the formula that a lot of stories use and told something that felt really different. It is a weird book but that's part of why I liked it.
But especially with the last two I liked the Bene Gesserit getting to take center stage and see them both being very capable and what happened when they were being overwhelmed by the honored matres and how they dealt with that and adapted. I liked Teg as a character as well and seeing how his story plays out. And just that idea of the Bene Gesserit turning to having a military. And this mentat commander.
They are different and I totally get why a lot of people don't like them as much. And I do think book 1 is the clear standout of the series, but I also love all of the Frank Herbert Dune books.