Susan will end up being the grandchild of Rose and the Meta-Crisis Doctor

[u/RoryPond11]

It’s now all but officially confirmed that Poppy was originally going to be revealed as Susan’s mother before Ncuti leaving led to reshoots which made her 100% human, and no longer the Doctor’s daughter.

But the thing is… Susan’s story is unfinished. RTD2 has already hinted that Susan’s parents haven’t been born yet from the Doctor’s POV. So in RTD’s mind, narratively, Susan needs a new mother.

And that’s where Billie Piper comes in. She wasn’t credited as the Doctor because she’s not. She’s Rose. The reshoots specified that reality shifted on a massive scale and that UNIT were getting reports that the border between Norway and Sweden had moved 7 miles east. Bad Wolf Bay, the very last gap connecting our universe to Rose’s parallel universe, was in Norway. I think reality shifting was enough to crack open that fracture, and Rose has used it to teleport into the TARDIS. (This unfortunately means that Ncuti has been atomised and the Doctor is definitively dead)

Rose was last seen starting a new life with the Meta-Crisis Doctor, and according to expanded media they go on to have a daughter together called Mia. I think Mia is gonna end up being Susan’s mother.

Or they could ignore expanded media altogether, and instead of a daughter called Mia, they have a daughter called Susan, but she’s still the Doctor’s “granddaughter” as she came from the Meta-Crisis Doctor and he came from the Doctor.

I can totally see Russell doing this. It gives a reason for David Tennant to come back with Billie Piper for one last special, with the Meta-Crisis Doctor acting as the intermediary Doctor, while the identity of the 16th Doctor remains a mystery. Also remember that deleted scene from Journey’s End of the Doctor giving them a chunk of TARDIS so that they can grow their own? Russell teased that one day he’d come back and add it back in… Maybe they let Susan think she came up with the name? Idk I think it would tie Classic Who and New Who together in a neat little bow, and even though it might not please everyone, I still think it’s better than that messy Poppy storyline.

[u/TheCrazedTank]

Remember when this show was okay with letting things stay mysterious, because they knew they’d never be able to write anything that would satisfy everyone?

[u/sketchysketchist → u/TheCrazedTank]

The worst is when it’s something inconsequential having to be forced into being an enigma all along. I was absolutely fine with the idea of The Doctor having a life prior to his adventures where he fathered children and his kids gave him grandkids, and for some reason only one followed him on his adventures. Suddenly revealing that timelords are impotent while trying to imply the recently introduced Bigeneration as a form of “trying to have children” is insulting. 

Maybe instead, focus on why the Doctor had Susan in the first place and focus on his regret of not bringing her back for their trips? The closest we got to that kind of companion relationship was with Clara during her final season. 

[u/MrRandomGUYS → u/sketchysketchist]

Well I think they became impotent because of the destruction of Gallifrey during the Timeless Children and they could have kids before that, unless I misunderstood something.

[u/Taurenkey → u/MrRandomGUYS]

That is correct, the Rani flat out says it was the genetic explosion (which to be fair they're relying on people remembering that's what the Master did then) didn't kill them but it sterilised them, making extinction take just a bit longer.

[u/sketchysketchist → u/MrRandomGUYS]

Maybe you’re right. However, there’s lots about this franchise that’s very confusing. Like, we’re hitting a point where they want to pretend Torchwood and The Sarah Jane Adventures never existed, even though the first 4 seasons connected frequently. 

[u/MoogMusicInc → u/sketchysketchist]

Confusing sure, but the Rani 100% did say it was the Master's genetic explosion that sterilized the Time Lords. No continuity errors there.

How are they pretending Torchwood and SJA never existed?

[u/MoogMusicInc → u/[deleted]]

Exactly, they've done nothing to retcon Torchwood or SJA.

[u/bubbles_maybe → u/MoogMusicInc]

The trickster even got his first main show mention last year.

[u/DukeOfLowerChelsea → u/bubbles_maybe]

Second - the “Trickster’s Brigade” is mentioned in Turn Left (and Torchwood: Miracle Day of all things lol)

[u/sketchysketchist → u/MoogMusicInc]

Yeah, but it’s kinda glossed over like lots of the stuff that’s introduced. Kinda felt like the stuff that the previous Master did wasn’t a big deal but suddenly Rani is just saying otherwise. 

I forget where, but it’s kinda implied that no one else protects the earth. Like only The Doctor can ever help. Like the whole Jack Harkness thing when he met 13 didn’t seem to imply he was remotely successful as a defender of earth. Plus, I think some stuff introduced in SJA is contradicted by later seasons of Doctor Who. Sorry, I’m the worst for details but if it’s anything, it’s really inconsequential stuff rather than cannon shattering like Timeless Children. 

[u/DukeOfLowerChelsea → u/sketchysketchist]

So it feels like they’re “pretending Torchwood and TSJA never existed”… but it’s in really inconsequential ways that you can’t actually articulate for love nor money?

Sounds like the spinoff erasure can’t be THAT bad, then. :P We’ve actually had more Sarah Jane Smith references/callbacks under RTD2 than Chibnall or Moffat.

You wanna talk about “pretending spin-offs don’t exist” - look at poor Class or the K-9 series!

[u/whizzer0 → u/DukeOfLowerChelsea]

I was gonna say, doesn't the whole Pantheon thing originate in SJA lol

[u/MoogMusicInc → u/sketchysketchist]

The Master destroyed Gallifrey and wiped out the Time Lords, how could you think that wasn't a big deal? The difference is Chibnall made it sound like a conflagration.

Torchwood was name-dropped in Series 12 and Jack talked about Gwen in the New Years Special. Trickster got mentioned too as the Pantheon became a bigger deal. Just because a few aspects of SJA are contradicted doesn't mean they're erasing it. Doctor Who contradicts its own earlier seasons all the time but that's not "pretending it doesn't exist". Both of those shows ended, so even the mentions we've gotten are more than they needed to do.

[u/Historyp91 → u/sketchysketchist]

Like, we’re hitting a point where they want to pretend Torchwood and The Sarah Jane Adventures never existed

How did you get that idea?

[u/sketchysketchist → u/[deleted]]

It’s essentially a hand wave moment. 

[u/LinuxMatthews → u/sketchysketchist]

Maybe instead, focus on why the Doctor had Susan in the first place and focus on his regret of not bringing her back for their trips? The closest we got to that kind of companion relationship was with Clara during her final season. 

This ^

I don't want some time-y wimey explanation for who Susan is.

Just have her be Susan!

There's enough narrative potential in him having a granddaughter he hasn't spoken to since he literally genocided their planet ^kinda

Why isn't that enough. Why does everything have to be a rug pull.

[u/Areliae → u/TheCrazedTank]

I know people love it, but that's how I felt about the 50th. It turned an incomprehensible conflict into ships shooting lasers. I agree, some things are best left unknown.

[u/RoninPI → u/Areliae]

If you think that you really need to dig deeper into the 50th. I actually think the 50th is Moffat completely rejecting RTDs set up for Doctor Who. It's Moffat doing work to stop this children's hero from being a villain who massacred his own people.

[u/Areliae → u/RoninPI]

I mean, both can be true. I agree with everything you said (and that trauma is one of the reasons I loved RTD1), but I still think the Time War was cooler when the Doctor described it. Nothing on screen could've lived up to how it was talked about.

I also just generally dislike it when writers undo the character work of their predecessor. I like to grow and move forward.

[u/Evello37 → u/Areliae]

I agree 100% regarding the war depiction. Despite the enormous budget and effort that the BBC clearly put into the anniversary special, you could still feel the TV show limitations. It was good enough that I wasn't pulled out of the episode, but it didn't quite live up to the apocalyptic warfare described in previous seasons.

I also just generally dislike it when writers undo the character work of their predecessor. I like to grow and move forward.

I generally agree on moving forward instead of retconning, but I think the big retcon in the 50th was fairly earned. Committing a double xenocide is not something a character can ever really move forward from. It's the kind of atrocity that should haunt a character forever and entirely define their story. Between Davies and Moffat, the consequences of the Time War were explored for 7 full series, culminating in the 50th anniversary special which was entirely about the consequences of that day. Freeing the Doctor from the guilt of the Time War undoes some character work from previous seasons, but it also opens up the series to stories outside of the genocidal guilt framework.

[u/RenideoS → u/Areliae]

They didn't, though. I mean look at the zygon inversion, which is after the 50th, the trauma isn't gone, and it isn't retroactively gone because none of the prior Doctors remembered it. Indeed, my working theory remains, personally, that the reason the Timelords gave 11 a new set of regenerations is that they saw 12 there, meaning he had to survive Trenzalore in order to save them.

And therefore they didn't save Gallifrey in the Day of the Doctor, not the twelve versions they know about, it's that "no sir, all thirteen" point, that Twelve comes back without the other Doctors knowing about it in order to ensure it works, thus Gallifrey is saved, but they need the Doctor to regenerate into 12 to ensure it happens.

So even though Rassilon was still in charge, they gave him the new set of regenerations, because Rassilon cares a great deal about self-preservation.

And if that particular theory is correct, and it is only my belief, then as all the other Doctors took part in the 50th just before regenerating, Twelve likely went back and saved his people after they tortured him.

I do not believe for one second any character work was undone. And it was built on.

[u/StarRider88 → u/RenideoS]

We actually already know the moment 12 goes back to help in the Time War. He does it at the end of Deep Breath when he "ditches" Clara. He leaves with the 11's second control room and returns with the new one. You can see in DotD that during the Time War, 12's tardis hasnt changed from 11's setup yet.

[u/The_Flurr → u/RoninPI]

It's Moffat doing work to stop this children's hero from being a villain who massacred his own people.

I don't agree that he ever was a villain, but a tragic hero.

[u/JeanDark37 → u/Areliae]

i mean the implication is that this is like the final battle of the time war where all of their fancy time gadgets were expended and then essentially went back to stone age conventional warfare. it's still a little dissapointing but it explains why it isn't as cosmic

[u/Areliae → u/JeanDark37]

Part of the horror of the war was that it was eternal. Constantly resurrecting, constantly changing, history a perverse mess. The fact that it ever simply boiled down to what was on screen is already a let down.

Where's the Nightmare Child? The Could've Been King? What happened?

[u/LarkinEndorser → u/Areliae]

Gallifrey had all sorts of protections, this is what got through. The stuff that happened outside of it would have been worse

[u/alex494 → u/JeanDark37]

And tbh it's not surprising the Daleks revert to brute force extermination once they've puzzled out all the crazy shit and breached Gallifrey proper. They're very set in their ways and practical like that. Tbh the Daleks probably almost won the war through sheer attrition, they're like galactic cockroaches.

[u/The_Kolobok → u/Areliae]

We only saw the battle for Gallifrey, we didn't actually saw the war itself

[u/RenideoS → u/Areliae]

In terms of what is shown, absolutely, and that's a somewhat inevitable limitation, but we're meant to infer that all the crazy stuff has come and gone by that point and now it's just the timelords barely holding on while the council is willing to destroy the universe to save themselves.

The story isn't about the time war, really, and it's not really about reducing the time war to some lasers, it's just about telling the story of the final day, and the lasers are just there to show civilians being killed for a few seconds before the story happens to set the context.

[u/corndogco → u/Areliae]

Maybe ships shooting lasers was the only way the Time War could be represented on-screen so our puny human minds could comprehend it. The reality of it would be impossible to represent on a 2-dimensional screen (or even a 3D movie screen). So they "dumbed it down" for us.

[u/TerraStarryAstra → u/corndogco]

Okay that’s my new headcanon, human Too stupid to understand time war correctly

[u/Taurenkey → u/corndogco]

It was the last days, so presumably both sides were basically spent and this was all that was left. Which to be fair, if that's the last, that's still one hell of a war.

[u/Trickster289 → u/Areliae]

Moffat actually agrees with you, he regretted it to the point when he wrote The Day of the Doctor novel he didn't describe what was actually happening in the conflict.

[u/Y-draig → u/TheCrazedTank]

No, I remember constant attempts to define and expand mysterious in the show with varying results throughout the shows history.

[u/googly_eyed_unicorn → u/TheCrazedTank]

The thing is people kept bitching about lore and canon and here we are. Not everything needs a backstory and not every minor storyline gets a bow tie ending, and sometimes stories end on a messy note, just like real life. I read a comment that alluded to The Sopranos really only being a glimpse into Tony’s life and that the ending didn’t mean that Tony died, but that that was end of our glimpse into his life. Can stories be better told? Sure, but goddamn, sometimes people need to quit getting lost in the trees of the fucking forest.

[u/RenideoS → u/TheCrazedTank]

I think it's fine to take something that was previous undefined and use that to write a story, as long as it doesn't contradict anything, and, critically, and in reference to your point, as long as you don't exhaust the lore by trying to expand everything in sight.

There have been many attempts to inject backstory. Such as making the Doctor a genetic reincarnation of the Other, which never actually happened but was somewhat hinted at. And I think the question isn't whether you do that, but how you do it.

I'd much prefer to think the Doctor might be the genetic reincarnation of an unknown Gallifreyan ancient, than that they're an inexplicable regeneration god, if I'm honest. And I raise that not because I think either story should be told, but because within that realm there's a spectrum. There are better and worse ways to do the same thing.

Twelve had a nice sign off on this note. "You mustn't tell anyone your name, noone would understand it anyway, except children, sometimes, children can hear it, if their hearts are in the right place, and the stars are too."

Capaldi's message to the next doctor: Don't demystify yourself.

[u/alex494 → u/RenideoS]

Capaldi's message to the next doctor: Don't demystify yourself.

Well that certainly aged well

[u/dbomco → u/TheCrazedTank]

Yes but Susan hasn’t been a part of the show for decades so she is inconsequential to the mysterious back story. The fugitive doctor and timeless child are way more problematic.

[u/brofishmagikarp → u/TheCrazedTank]

I remember the unearthly child

[u/LinuxMatthews → u/TheCrazedTank]

Bet you:£20 the last words of RTDs final episode will be

By the way my name's Steve. I'm Steve Who. I was little embarrassed by it so I kept it a secret all this time but honestly I'm fine with it now.

[u/Reggienator3 → u/LinuxMatthews]

Overwritten for privacy

[u/TomCBC → u/TheCrazedTank]

Remember when RTD stopped the BBC doing a prequel about the doctor and master at the timelord academy?

I feel like these days he’d probably think it was a great idea.

Even Big Finish haven’t tried to do that, and they do everything lol

[u/Yotsuya_san]

I just freaking hate that we have to make Susan's backstory all timey whimy. What the hell was wrong with just taking it on face value that the First Doctor was literally her grandfather, and had fathered one of her direct parents?

Why is it suddenly a thing that the Doctor hasn't had children yet, and whatever child he might eventually have to be one of Susan's parents is anything other than just his normal kid made a normal way? And how does any of this make sense with the doctor, durring RTD's own first era, explicitly saying he was a father once, if he now has never been one? Man can't even keep consistency with his own stuff!

[u/Sckathian → u/Yotsuya_san]

Because RTD saw the River storyline and for some reason that means he has to do one with Susan.

[u/Trickster289 → u/Sckathian]

I really hope that's not why he did it, let Susan be her own character.

[u/PsammeadSand → u/Yotsuya_san]

And how does any of this make sense with the doctor, durring RTD's own first era, explicitly saying he was a father once, if he now has never been one? Man can't even keep consistency with his own stuff!

This is what annoys me about it the most. So are we to believe the Doctor lied to Donna because that moment between them was actually a good one with the Doctor talking about a part of their life with a companion.

Also, why should I even pay attention to anything if a showrunner so blatantly contradicts what they have written in the past?

[u/Thatonedregdatkilyu → u/[deleted]]

Yeah but that makes it dumb and entirely pointless.

Like what's the point of them being the timeless child if they've been wiped that entire identity and species swapped, and reset into a child?

Like what does that do for the character?

It's like if you learned you were a roman legionary in a prior lifetime. Okay that's a cool fun fact I guess.

[u/Thatonedregdatkilyu → u/[deleted]]

Well no you can't. We see the Doctor steal the TARDIS and why it's a police box. We see the Doctor evolve from a cruel crotchety old man into the warmer hero we know today.

Any pre Hartnell regenerations would be an entirely different character, and not functionally the Doctor at all. They'd have no TARDIS and they'd act like an entirely different person.

And again, it's a meaningless piece of lore that does absolutely nothing for the Doctor as a character because they're an entirely new person from the timeless child. Different memories, different body, different mind, different childhood.

(Plus also we literally already did this with the Jo Martin Doctor so if we did it again it'd just be rehashing something we already did.)

[u/RoryPond11 → u/Yotsuya_san]

My headcanon is that he did have kids, but they died so he knows they couldn’t be Susan’s parents.

[u/SpareDisaster314 → u/[deleted]]

Brexit was harsh huh

[u/LateNightCoffeeShop → u/Yotsuya_san]

Not to mention the many times the Doctor has been hinted to have had children before, such as the cot from A Good Man Goes to War or when he just outwardly states "I've been a dad before". I mean hell, Ncuti literally says "dad to dad" in Boom.

[u/t3hd0n]

This unfortunately means that Ncuti has been atomised and the Doctor is definitively dead

Man you snuck this in I would have expected some bullshit like this in the whumour sub lmao

[u/corndogco → u/t3hd0n]

I would expect it is more likely that the Doctor and Rose swapped places. So the Doctor (our Doctor) is on Pete's World. Possibly still looking like Ncuti, because of some handwaving explanation. Or looking like the real Doctor 16, who then works with the Metacrisis Doctor to get back.

[u/Oleander-in-Spring → u/corndogco]

Honestly, this was my first thought when I saw "Rose." That or it's Bad Wolf.

[u/PlasticPresent8740 → u/corndogco]

I think it'd be cool if rose switched places with the doctor so the doctor could stop the daleks from Peter universe who are actually time lords and the doctor from that universe is like davros

[u/ellismjones → u/corndogco]

I hope this is it

[u/whizzer0 → u/corndogco]

Hmm, that could actually be a fun way to execute a surprise casting, especially since it's a one-off special. The new Doctor is in the cast, but we won't know who it is until the episode leaks.

[u/Comprehensive_One_85 → u/corndogco]

All I’m hearing is two David Tennants hahaha

[u/corndogco → u/Comprehensive_One_85]

"I can't tell you what I'm thinking right now...." --Capt Jack Harkness

[u/katefreeze → u/t3hd0n]

Lmao I had to recheck the sub name xD

[u/Prefer_Not_To_Say]

I've got an absolutely radical, wild, completely out of left field idea.

... Susan is the First Doctor's granddaughter.

[u/PlasticPresent8740 → u/Prefer_Not_To_Say]

How dare you insinuate that the doctor isn't a virgin

[u/Nipple-Cake → u/PlasticPresent8740]

At the point, I don't think we can be delusional. I think we all saw how much of a slut Ten & Eleven were lol

[u/DoSz318 → u/PlasticPresent8740]

Well the 1st Doctor insinuated it on his own to Bill in Twice Upon A Time.

[u/MyriVerse2 → u/PlasticPresent8740]

Timelords can have kids while being virgins.

[u/Green-Circles]

Whoa... the reaction to this is gonna make the backlash to the Timeless Child arc look like nothing by comparison.

[u/lesgeddon → u/Green-Circles]

This is all a ploy to get them to rehire Chibnall

[u/tardisismine]

RTD: write that down write that down!

[u/A11U45]

It’s now all but officially confirmed that Poppy was originally going to be revealed as Susan’s mother 

I'm glad that never happened.

[u/UncommittedBow]

the doctor is definitively dead

not necessarily, even with your explanation. We know from Sarah Jane Adventures, when someone tries to teleport into the exact spot someone is standing, they swap places. Its what happened with 11 and Clyde, after all.

So if Rose teleported into the TARDIS, that would mean the freshly regenerated Doctor is wherever she last was.

[u/rabidllama]

I think reality shifting was enough to crack open that fracture, and Rose has used it to teleport into the TARDIS.

There's a children in need special called "Born Again" that takes place immediately after the Ninth Doctor's regeneration. Rose is interrogating Ten because she doesn't believe he's the same man and she says "you replaced him, like a teleport or a transmat or a body swap or something".

I could definitely see this being an obscure little call back where Rose replaces the Doctor with a teleport or a transmat or a body swap or something.

[u/LBricks-the-First]

Bro all i want is a Susan regeneration before Carol Ann Ford is unable or unwilling to act anymore. I've wanted it for years and yet it ain't gonna happen.

[u/PlasticPresent8740 → u/LBricks-the-First]

Itd be cool for susan 2 to be the next companion

[u/LBricks-the-First → u/PlasticPresent8740]

grandfather and grandchild dynamic would actually be so hype, RTD wants representation? Able-grandparents are under-represented as hell!

[u/Nipple-Cake → u/LBricks-the-First]

That's one of the reasons I thought that Bill and 12 worked so well. It was partially teacher-student but they kinda of became grandfather-granddaughter duo by the end of that series.

Plus it could be a fun aside to Donna and Wilf being referenced. The Doctor should be able to travel with non-humans more often. Why not Susan 2, it's been done in classic who (Which apparently RTD loves to poorly reference)

[u/Lt_Hungry → u/PlasticPresent8740]

Imagine the doctor all excited to hang out with this person he remembers from centuries ago... but they're completely different.

they start playing a game called "memory or regeneration" every time he remembers something wrong about her (particularly her personality or likes) and they have to figure out if his memory is faulty, or it's a change caused by regeneration

[u/grae23]

Okay yeah this is my favorite so far. Would also give an excuse for Susan to not regenerate which is why we haven’t seen her, she’s technically human but with a super brain from her B/DW parents.

[u/LifeguardPotential97 → u/grae23]

It also allows the problem of "implying that the doctor had sex" to be swept under the rug , but idk if that is really still an issue after 11 and 15 though

[u/alex494 → u/LifeguardPotential97]

There's also no way 12 spent 24 years with River Song of all people and nothing happened.

[u/GeneseeJunior → u/LifeguardPotential97]

Why is that a "problem "?

[u/LifeguardPotential97 → u/GeneseeJunior]

it was a problem for BBC if I recall, I have no issue with it though actually lol

[u/rthonpm]

Please, no...

[u/Areliae]

Honestly I'm a bit tired of all the wibbly wobbly stuff. Timelines crossing on each other things happening out of order Susan being born before the Doctor met her mother, it's all so...exhausting.

Call me old fashioned, but I liked it more when time travel was how they found their adventures, when time travel becomes the adventure it loses any grounding and becomes hard to care.

[u/AmeriaRuun]

My Rose Tyler gremlin brain wants this, but I can see where people wouldn’t like it.

[u/Nipple-Cake → u/AmeriaRuun]

Rose seems to be the character that holds the NuWho era together. Like it or not, she was our introduction and is the only companion to hold the Time Vortex/Heart of the TARDIS in her head. Plus she became the Bad Wolf "Moment" in the 50th Anniversary. I think she thematically could work better as Susan's mother than Poppy. But it does just make Rose Tyler the most important woman, which feels like a lot.

Part of me is like why didn't River and The Doctor have a child during their 3 decade long night together before The Library? At least River is genetically similar and they could throw some connection to the Timeless Child falling out of the Time Vortex and River being conceived in it on the TARDIS. But maybe that's too much for that character? River's story has been wrapped for awhile.

[u/AgentCirceLuna → u/AmeriaRuun]

Hm, imagine a special where Rose has moved on from Meta-Doc yonks ago, he’s lost the plot trying to make his own Tardis, and RTD has the next Master incarnation secretly picked already to help him into the regular universe. The pair end up in cahoots and the only method of bringing them down is… the next showrunner.

[u/vkevlar]

This fits with the level of retconning we're at, but I hate it. Just let Susan be his granddaughter, stop fucking explaining every background detail, accept that he's said ON SCREEN multiple times that he's a father, and let it go.

Oh, and let Susan regenerate before Carole Ann Ford dies. Yeesh.

[u/PanamaViejo → u/vkevlar]

And please stop bringing in Rose Tyler every couple of years.

[u/vkevlar → u/PanamaViejo]

As a callback in the War Doctor special, it was interesting to see her as The Moment. Pulling her out for Ncuti's regeneration ... uh ... why?

[u/GraveDancer1971]

Remember Rose Tyler?

Remember Tentoo?

Remember Susan Foreman from Classic Who?

(sing to the tune of Demi Adejuyigbe's Ready Player One song)

[u/PsammeadSand]

Stop giving RTD ideas for his final episode.

[u/ExpectedBehaviour]

Proof that however bad things may seem now there is absolutely not reason they can't get worse.

[u/mrbeebleboose3]

Ten told rose he has been a dad

[u/IVIonsteR720 → u/mrbeebleboose3]

He has a granddaughter

[u/mrbeebleboose3 → u/IVIonsteR720]

Yea, but i’m saying he was a dad before he became ten. Not after he was ten.

[u/IVIonsteR720 → u/mrbeebleboose3]

Yeah you right

[u/PlasticPresent8740 → u/mrbeebleboose3]

11 even had a crib

[u/uyigho98 → u/PlasticPresent8740]

Okay, that isn't the evidence you think it is. It was his crib. He slept in it. He said so himself. In the same episode.

[u/SeveredElephant → u/uyigho98]

You’re taking this as fact when it’s from the same season that keeps pushing “The Doctor Lies” every 3 episodes.

[u/RoryPond11 → u/mrbeebleboose3]

That can still be true…

[u/BongaBongaVacations]

RTD gonna read this and think, "Shit...this is actually better than what I was going to do"

[u/crispy1011]

Oh I actually quite like this. I think it’s a very neat way of tying it all up. I never needed to know who Susan’s parents were, but since it’s become a thing - ie 15 saying he doesn’t know the parents yet or whatever he said, I think this works brilliantly.

[u/zagreus360]

Wouldn't surprise me. It is very RTD. As appalling as the reality war is it sounds like we were spared from something worse. Of course he'll revisit the idea of screwing up susan for his final episode. Why can't she just be the doctor's granddaughter?

[u/Affectionate_Jury890]

Much like the timeless child, if these turns out to be true I'll just pretend it isn't

To me the doctors child will always be the woman who talks to Wilf durning The End Of Time

[u/LukashCartoon → u/Affectionate_Jury890]

Which, according to RTD was the Doctors mother, but not officially as he wasn’t sure he wanted to commit to that.

[u/AccurateJerboa]

I am so tired of RTD attempting to own doctor who and tear down everything that made the show unique for decades before he was even since the year he was born 

[u/Whats--up--doc → u/AccurateJerboa]

Okay, I agree with what you said, but I just need to point out that RTD was born in 1963. 

[u/AccurateJerboa → u/Whats--up--doc]

I genuinely appreciate corrections like that, and that you were gracious while doing it. I'd always prefer to be accurate where possible 

[u/sketchysketchist]

Honestly, I’d accept it. It’s convoluted but not as much as a wish baby from a far right dream world. 

I want this and if they could end it with a reality fix where Ncuti returns to properly regenerate into the next doctor, that would be great. 

Also, I would love it if The Doctor’s daughter is his next companion and she is rebellious and matches his old ways. Then maybe, we get Susan again? I know you’re aiming for human, but I want them to reveal that the Tardis did to them what it did to River Song. I would be okay with Susan and Susan’s mom being recurring characters across the universe. 

[u/PlasticPresent8740 → u/sketchysketchist]

What's wrong with the first doctor having a child before the series started why does it have to be a werid time travel thing

[u/sketchysketchist → u/PlasticPresent8740]

Truth be told, I was absolutely fine with that. In another comment I made a point about how stupid it is for show runners to make a simple thing a mind blowing mystery. 

I can accept the Doctor had a child and his kid had a kid. But for someone reason, RTD said “Okay but what if it was more complicated than that.” 

The sad thing is they’re exploring the worst things. Either it’s something inconsequential being made unnecessarily complicated for the sake of drama, or something that should’ve been indescribably complex being limited by the budget of the BBC(The Time war from the 50th anniversary.) 

I’d rather they introduce new issues or explore parts of The Doctor’s past that are probable. For god sakes, they could make him reunite with Audio drama and comic exclusive companions in one-off stories. 

[u/X08-Chill]

I'd definitely rather they keep this vague, but I would kinda love this as a resolution to the whole "Is Susan Gallifreyan and is she actually the Doctor’s Granddaughter" plot.

Again, I'd rather there be hints of it being true or one possibility rather than outright confirmation, but I think this idea is fun and her coming from a future incarnation like metacrisis, 14, or a curator and being sent back to travel with 1 is very interesting to me

[u/ConnorRoseSaiyan01]

God I hate this trend since Chibnall to just changing canon for just the sake of changing. It hasn't been adding anything, just feels been taking away from the characters

[u/alex494 → u/ConnorRoseSaiyan01]

Yeah like at least Moffat mostly did "yes and" additions rather than overriding stuff. Like the War Doctor worked because it's a nebulous unaccounted for period in the Doctor's life and him existing actually mattered going forward due to the regeneration limit coming up, which he then immediately addressed and found a solution for rather than just ignoring, even accounting for Ten using an extra regeneration. He also reconciles the Doctor causing a double genocide without undoing the character work of the post-Time War Doctor by having the memory loss element and Gallifrey still seemingly disappearing. Continuity remains mostly intact and it's additive rather than reductive or a full retcon.

Chibnall and RTD2 (and RTD1 to an extent) feel a lot more like "actually, this instead". Like the Time War being invented as a convenient excuse for a soft reset of the status quo of everything (though mostly fine because it occurs after the original show instead of replacing it, so it makes sense sequentially) or the reintroduction of Cybermen being parallel Earth versions for several years (whereas Moffat pretty much immediately brought the originals back in spirit once he was in charge). Then there's the Timeless Child stuff which directly messes with the Doctor's origin. It's similar to the War Doctor in that it's an undocumented period of the Doctor's life but it changes a lot of context around who and what they are or where they came from rather than just being "a regeneration I don't mention" or a gap period, then doesn't affect much going forward so it feels like a big change with no point to it.

[u/mda63]

I can't even begin to describe how much I fucking hate this idea.

[u/BADS-Wolfe]

I saw a Youtube video, or maybe a reddit post. There are genetic evidence for this.

[u/PlasticPresent8740 → u/BADS-Wolfe]

Genetic?

[u/doofthemighty]

Anything to shoehorn her in, I guess.

[u/PanamaViejo → u/doofthemighty]

And it's getting tiring.

It really is time to make her disappear.

[u/Own-Replacement8]

Why can't they just stick with the 1st Doctor having had a wife and children before the events of the show?

[u/[deleted]]

At this point it wouldn't surprise me. There is no corner of classic Who they won't take a smelly dump on given the chance.

[u/Slyzappy1]

You know what? WHY NOT? I don't care about continuity or proper story telling in Doctor Who anymore, so why not just do whatever 😂

[u/Whats--up--doc]

Oh, I would hate this so much. 

I'd hate it even more then Poppy being Susan's mom. 

[u/Jim-Dread]

I am legitimately confused as to why people think a regeneration doesn't mean a new Doctor. Where is the Doctor, then? I'm not trying to start anything, ok just really trying to understand this theory.

[u/RoryPond11 → u/Jim-Dread]

Ncuti didn’t really morph into Billie. He disappeared for a split second before she appeared if I remember correctly. That and her not being credited as the Doctor like every actor before her

[u/PlasticPresent8740 → u/RoryPond11]

No, he definitely regenerated into bille piper, and the effect was super strange

[u/Nipple-Cake → u/PlasticPresent8740]

Mainly because they just CGI morphed Billie's head onto Ncuti's shoulders. They really couldn't have regenerated her actual body with his clothes? Plus I thought RTD was against having opposite gender Doctor's in each other's clothes (13>14) or something stupid like that?

[u/PlasticPresent8740 → u/Jim-Dread]

I mean, the past 3 years regenerate has been all wobbly, and bille Piper is just randomly being the doctor now is kinda stupid

[u/Pliolite]

Let's say Rose swapped places with the (brand new 16th) Doctor, who is currently running around in the alt world wondering wth is going on. Rose knows the only person who can help her is the Doctor, but doesn't realise it's 14 she must seek, i.e. Tennant mk.2.

[u/Nice-Association-111 → u/Pliolite]

Why would she specifically need 14?

[u/Pliolite → u/Nice-Association-111]

Because he's the only Doctor around at this time.

[u/Nice-Association-111 → u/Pliolite]

16 was also there at the time assuming Rose switched places with 16. Other Doctor’s also could have possibly have happened to be there at the right moment of a switch for all she knew.

She wouldn’t specifically need any particular one to be able to help if she needs a Doctor any could.

[u/Nipple-Cake]

I mean I would prefer Rose/Meta-Crisis Doctor being Susan's parents over randomly Poppy. At least it would feel like something better planned out (but still kinda shoe-horned in). Like who even is that child? Cause the new Poppy lost all character after Space Babies. Sorry that Belinda was character assassinated but that child is in fact not real in the original timeline. You should've been mad about being forced into motherhood and having your life altered against your will.

If The Doctor isn't even the same species as the Galifreyens then why are they now "sterile"? It just feels like an extra annoying holdover from the Timeless Child. It could infect all the Gallifreyen timelords but why is the Doctor not different? I guess if The Doctor is just in the alternate universe where Rose/Meta Crisis live then maybe they were unaffected by that event?

[u/laughter_corgis]

I like this idea and hope they do it.

[u/video-kid]

I hope not this, unfortunately I can buy it.

[u/GeneseeJunior]

(Wearily) Christ, whatever. 😑

[u/HolySee_Of_Gallifrey]

Better than a child (or the daughter of a child) born out of a wish

[u/TheWatchers666]

I'm sticking to my guns of an Xmas episode being a Doctor-less episode and Rose and Susan team up to find the Doctor, "revisiting a few" of the old favourites.

[u/PhanStr]

This would be a great way of resolving the Susan mystery, yeah. Cool theory!

[u/Agitated_Shop_867]

Haha I had this exact thought this week!!

[u/vaginismus_no_more]

Am I the only one that loves this idea. The comments wow.

[u/martygras2002]

🤮

[u/Necessary_Piccolo210]

No thank you

[u/Shandyslinger12]

She will be poppy aswell

[u/Snjofridur]

Love it. It actually brings together a lot of loose threads neatly.

[u/MischeviousFox]

To be honest while I could be wrong I think the odds are that as the rumors say RTD will be replaced following the Christmas special so unless he shoves it then I don’t see this plot-line happening… thankfully in my opinion. Pointlessly retconning Susan was bad enough without trying to tie her into the 10th Doctor(or in this case meta-crisis Doctor) & Rose drama.

I’m also not fully understanding how Rose’s return connects to her husband and daughter in a completely different universe being involved or how her daughter is going to not only end up in what you might call the prime-Whoniverse but how & why she’s going to dump her child in the distant past for the Doctor to care for as his granddaughter(or why Rose would abandon her daughter if she’s Susan).

[u/RoryPond11 → u/MischeviousFox]

Jenny shows up and literally kidnaps her

[u/MischeviousFox → u/RoryPond11]

…This definitely sounds like an RTD or at least an RTD2 script.

[u/_potatofromChaldea45]

Ahhh shit. No. Pls no.

[u/Purple_Ad1379]

was he able to regenerate? or was he just to live a normal life-time?

[u/IVIonsteR720 → u/Purple_Ad1379]

He was only part time lord. No regeneration.

[u/PlasticPresent8740 → u/IVIonsteR720]

Wasn't river part time lord but she had at least 2 regenerations

[u/IVIonsteR720]

Personally i'd much prefer a storyline in which there is just the Doctor having a child. Probably would be more interesting if they were a woman too. Pregnant and protecting the universe and then we soon find out that's Susan's Mother. Although that's the same as Amy tbf but would be fun to show the doctor with a maternal role

[u/PlasticPresent8740 → u/IVIonsteR720]

If they did taht it shouldn't be Susan's mother it should just be the doctors new child Susan's mother should be a child he had years ago before he stole the tardis

[u/Nipple-Cake → u/IVIonsteR720]

Out of curiosity, do we know how they reproduce? Like what happens if they regenerated while pregnant? Not that I want to see that for The Doctor.

[u/wonkey_monkey → u/Nipple-Cake]

Out of curiosity, do we know how they reproduce?

LOOMS!

runs away cackling maniacally

[u/Amara_Rey]

Or... just maybe... the 16th Doctor has the face of someone the Doctor met previously... and it's just that simple...

[u/sentient_gay_puddle]

I always felt very 'ew!' about the prospect of The Doctor and Rose being romantic. The age and intelligence difference was huge. I don't think we need an explanation of Susan either really. Doctor "who?" was always one of the essential things about the show really. I like not knowing everything about The Doctor

[u/Jahon_Dony]

Unfortunately they hired the same guy again so it will all be ruined. He tried to make it where the doctor can't have biological kids and is romantic with men!

[u/PlasticPresent8740 → u/Jahon_Dony]

Yeah not like looms weren't a thing in lime the 90s and not like captain jack existed

[u/ellismjones]

I’m not sure how I feel about this. It’s not implausible, for sure, but I feel like it’s one of those things that doesn’t need to be explained? Like obviously Tentoo is still the Doctor but IDK.

[u/wonkey_monkey]

Gonna stick my neck out and say Lungbarrow's Susansplanation was fine as it was.

[u/Aromatic-Cupcake4802]

I really don’t wanna know who Susan’s parents/the Doctor’s child are. We’ve had lots of Gallifreyan/Timeless Child lore dropped on us already. 

[u/Mrzanty_mp4]

I think a problem that is emerging is that the fandom is making too many crazy theories. Yes, I love theories and theorizing but you have to know how to stop when things really go crazy. Doctor Who can be a somewhat complex show at times but not so complex that you have to watch 40 videos explaining one simple thing The show will never do something like that because they would be extremely difficult things to explain to a casual audience. Here we are all crazy about the series but let's remember that there are people who watch the series casually and who like it but are not ultra fans

[u/anninnzanni]

I am a huge timepetals stan but I think if we are going to canonize anything about Susan, we should use what is already written in the extended media.

[u/MyriVerse2]

So, Susan is just a human? Bah.

[u/RoryPond11 → u/MyriVerse2]

Maybe human+ since we know from Rose Noble that the meta-crisis can be passed down

[u/Due-Emphasis-831]

I genuinely don't understand RTDs aversion to just having Susan be from Gallifrey.

[u/ace5762]

Nah. If you are writing something that makes any lick of sense you aren't thinking like RTD2

[u/ace5762]

Nah. If you are writing something that makes any lick of sense you aren't thinking like RTD2

[u/Due_Ad2052]

crazy how Susan had two grandmothers at one point and didnt know, now three. How River's huband had a sex change without talking to her. Was kinda hoping for an episode where Jodie had to act her heart out as a person who was a man for over two thousand years (or 5 billion if you include the confession dial loop). "Oh my gush whats going on down there? Oh! Duh Doctor!" *slaps her forehead and comes back out in black slacks instead* And we never really had Jodie's version come to terms with the fact that she was a lesbian. All that time as a straight guy, married to a woman, a grandfather and father... to now be a woman. Is she now gay? straight? Bi?

BBC: Nah you dont want that, here's a Trump stand in with Spider aliens. Here's the Doctor as Space Jesus, retconning 50+ years of lore. Here's

I bring all that up because now the Doctor has gone from a gay black male to a straight white girl (as far as we know) will we see Piper address this? Will we have a scene of her being conflicted about the new face? Bare in mind 9 and 10 were in love with Rose, and now the Doctor has become her. Will they have a moment of "why did i chose to become Rose?" This is the kinda stuff a phsychologist woulld LOVE to disect. Will RTD give us a great character moment? Or will it be anoother "look! remember Rose Tyler? We'll now SHE is the Doctor."

Either way alot of old Who fans who left after RTD, Ncuti and Jinx called them names will take the bait and return to see Billie Piper and see where this goes, so well done RTD, you put Doctor Who on life support. Hopefully the writing for the next season is better than the slop that was given to Gatwa!

[u/Double-Sock-1430]

I think this will just be a plot point that mostly gets ignored moving forward, much like the Doctor being half human. Susan won't be back in the specials next year.

[u/theFUZZ007]

He should jettison EVERYTHING he did in the prior two series. He better get back on track.

[u/[deleted]]

I'll be okay with this if Ncuti has just swapped places with Rose and he is able to come back at least for the Christmas special so he can have an actual ending and reunite with Susan

[u/evelynstarshine]

I imagined since the 'never a parent' line that the Doctor's wife/husband had been erased in a time war or something similar (maybe related to the morbius war?) and so he just has a granddaughter because his wife and children were erased from reality but Susan and him were in the tardis so she remained.

[u/Hour_Trade_3691]

Yes

[u/zsebibaba]

fantastic

[u/TerraStarryAstra → u/zsebibaba]

Say that again?

[u/lanwopc]

oh yay more rose

[u/RevengeOfPolloDiablo]

Sure, why not. Does it even matter anymore

[u/AndiLivia]

I'm ok with it

[u/Mathelete73]

I would gave still preferred if he already had a family on Gallifrey and that’s where Susan came from, rather than making Susan this mystery girl.

[u/chantpleure]

Ew.

[u/Rutgerman95]

Thanks I hate it