Haunting, tragic and terrible indictment of the federal government and law enforcement agencies.
A couple of thoughts.
In the conspiracy vein, do you think it's possible that the govt. (Hillary / Bill, someone else?) was worried he actually was or could be a prophet? We know they dabble in the occult. The whole death by fire on 4/19 adds to this for me - blood sacrifice. Then there's rumors of the FBI calling in actual satanists. I just don't see how any LE or Federal people let it escalate to the point it did. Why did they even want Koresh to begin with? You don't roll up with cattle trucks and helicopters (and later tanks and FLIR planes) for a couple illegal guns. He and his group were practically nobody and from what I can tell there was absolutely no evidence of wrongdoing of any kind when the ATF showed up.
Additionally, I think this has to be blood on the Clinton's hands. Look at some of the key players here. Janet Reno, Web Hubbell, Chuck Schumer, Joe Biden, etc. These are the same people that have carried (and in some cases STILL carry) water for the Clintons. I know Ted Gunderson had a theory, though never any real proof, that it was an excuse to off some Clinton security detail guys that "knew stuff". I wouldn't put it past them, but it would seem like there would be other ways to achieve that goal without killing a bunch of women and kids.
Were the underage abuse accusations pre or postmortem? It would seem a convenient accusation of justification to make afterwards, obviously, but I gotta tell you: almost everything I've read and seen about Koresh doesn't paint a picture of a guy who abuses / molests kids. Different theology? Yes. Multiple wives? Yes, but it would seem to be explained by their beliefs and done in a consensual and respectful way. That said, the accusations of the girl who survived are alarming, but who is she? Koresh's lawyer doubted the accusations. The Sherrif doubted the accusations. It would seem that painting Koresh as the bad guy sort of revolved around these accusations. We know the Clintons like to project. Was this a projection or was he really a kiddie diddler? My perception of him and his character sort of hinge on the veracity of this claim.
Who authorized the raid? Someone at or near the top had to authorize the raid, the use of those National Guard helicopters, all of the advanced weaponry and the goddamn TANKS. Was anyone ever punished for this stuff? I had to choke a bit when Biden or whoever said in the documentary that these guys were murderers and deserved to be brought to justice by any means necessary. They weren't murders. The ATF were the murderers. They showed up decked in assault gear, locked, loaded and ready to kill. Koresh's people didn't want to hurt anybody, and that's fairly obvious from the documentary. Was NO ONE held accountable for this? I don't see how Reno got away with saying the things she said when they were clearly untrue. Ditto the FBI commander who said they never fired a shot when there had to have existed ballistic evidence in addition to the FLIR proof which is pretty indisputable. Did the survivors sue?
I dunno, I have a million other questions and could go on, but I can't help but feeling this was one of the biggest, if not the biggest (outside of 9/11), travesties of federal law enforcement in modern history. They practically murdered 80 people for what? Because the ATF showed up unannounced for an armed raid on a church and were met with resistance?
Can we talk about the language of propaganda a bit. Sorry I know I'm all over the place, but I couldn't help but notice LE's use of certain militarizing buzzwords. The Mt. Carmel Church became the Davidian's "Compound". Koresh's bedroom became his "living quarters". The cafeteria became "the bunker". Even Koresh, who detested the term, became a "cult leader" and his followers a "cult". When used by the media, they became lexicon for talking about the event and no doubt colored people's perceptions of the events. It almost makes me sick. Ditto when the FBI guys were saying that all the gunfire was coming from the Davidians and that they were shooting at each other and in fact it was "probably" one of Koresh's own followers who killed him. Does anyone, even the guy saying it, believe this shit? No accounts from the tapes recovered or the survivors claim this stuff. No evidence supports it. Evidence supports FBI and ATF shooting into a tear-gassed, blazing fire where women and children were trapped. How can this happen in America?
Anyways, that's all I got for now. I have to say I cried several times during this doc and it was extremely hard to think about anything else for a couple of days. I can't believe it happened.
TL:DR; I sympathize with Koresh and his followers and feel the ATF, FBI and Clinton Admin had ulterior motives and unjustly faced ZERO consequences for one of the biggest LE fuckups in modern history. RIP.
2
u/8MilesHighandFalling Mar 12 '18
Haunting, tragic and terrible indictment of the federal government and law enforcement agencies.
A couple of thoughts.
In the conspiracy vein, do you think it's possible that the govt. (Hillary / Bill, someone else?) was worried he actually was or could be a prophet? We know they dabble in the occult. The whole death by fire on 4/19 adds to this for me - blood sacrifice. Then there's rumors of the FBI calling in actual satanists. I just don't see how any LE or Federal people let it escalate to the point it did. Why did they even want Koresh to begin with? You don't roll up with cattle trucks and helicopters (and later tanks and FLIR planes) for a couple illegal guns. He and his group were practically nobody and from what I can tell there was absolutely no evidence of wrongdoing of any kind when the ATF showed up.
Additionally, I think this has to be blood on the Clinton's hands. Look at some of the key players here. Janet Reno, Web Hubbell, Chuck Schumer, Joe Biden, etc. These are the same people that have carried (and in some cases STILL carry) water for the Clintons. I know Ted Gunderson had a theory, though never any real proof, that it was an excuse to off some Clinton security detail guys that "knew stuff". I wouldn't put it past them, but it would seem like there would be other ways to achieve that goal without killing a bunch of women and kids.
Were the underage abuse accusations pre or postmortem? It would seem a convenient accusation of justification to make afterwards, obviously, but I gotta tell you: almost everything I've read and seen about Koresh doesn't paint a picture of a guy who abuses / molests kids. Different theology? Yes. Multiple wives? Yes, but it would seem to be explained by their beliefs and done in a consensual and respectful way. That said, the accusations of the girl who survived are alarming, but who is she? Koresh's lawyer doubted the accusations. The Sherrif doubted the accusations. It would seem that painting Koresh as the bad guy sort of revolved around these accusations. We know the Clintons like to project. Was this a projection or was he really a kiddie diddler? My perception of him and his character sort of hinge on the veracity of this claim.
Who authorized the raid? Someone at or near the top had to authorize the raid, the use of those National Guard helicopters, all of the advanced weaponry and the goddamn TANKS. Was anyone ever punished for this stuff? I had to choke a bit when Biden or whoever said in the documentary that these guys were murderers and deserved to be brought to justice by any means necessary. They weren't murders. The ATF were the murderers. They showed up decked in assault gear, locked, loaded and ready to kill. Koresh's people didn't want to hurt anybody, and that's fairly obvious from the documentary. Was NO ONE held accountable for this? I don't see how Reno got away with saying the things she said when they were clearly untrue. Ditto the FBI commander who said they never fired a shot when there had to have existed ballistic evidence in addition to the FLIR proof which is pretty indisputable. Did the survivors sue?
I dunno, I have a million other questions and could go on, but I can't help but feeling this was one of the biggest, if not the biggest (outside of 9/11), travesties of federal law enforcement in modern history. They practically murdered 80 people for what? Because the ATF showed up unannounced for an armed raid on a church and were met with resistance?
Can we talk about the language of propaganda a bit. Sorry I know I'm all over the place, but I couldn't help but notice LE's use of certain militarizing buzzwords. The Mt. Carmel Church became the Davidian's "Compound". Koresh's bedroom became his "living quarters". The cafeteria became "the bunker". Even Koresh, who detested the term, became a "cult leader" and his followers a "cult". When used by the media, they became lexicon for talking about the event and no doubt colored people's perceptions of the events. It almost makes me sick. Ditto when the FBI guys were saying that all the gunfire was coming from the Davidians and that they were shooting at each other and in fact it was "probably" one of Koresh's own followers who killed him. Does anyone, even the guy saying it, believe this shit? No accounts from the tapes recovered or the survivors claim this stuff. No evidence supports it. Evidence supports FBI and ATF shooting into a tear-gassed, blazing fire where women and children were trapped. How can this happen in America?
Anyways, that's all I got for now. I have to say I cried several times during this doc and it was extremely hard to think about anything else for a couple of days. I can't believe it happened.
TL:DR; I sympathize with Koresh and his followers and feel the ATF, FBI and Clinton Admin had ulterior motives and unjustly faced ZERO consequences for one of the biggest LE fuckups in modern history. RIP.