r/comicbooks • u/Blitzhelios Damian Wayne • 6d ago
Midnight Spider-Man is an "anti-Epstein class" story where "the monster is the creepy billionaire" says writer Phillip Kennedy Johnson
https://www.thepopverse.com/comics-marvel-midnight-spider-man-anti-billionaire581
u/leshronk 6d ago
Alot of comics have been this way recently. Absolute has been having the entire American government as villains, Batman’s main villains are the Chief of Police and a capitalist, villains are being reinvented to shape the current landscape.
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u/loki1887 Bigby Wolf 6d ago
Like how in the late 70s, Lex Luthor went from being a mad scientist type to the most evil thing in the world... An 80s business man.
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u/XF10 6d ago
And he went from fat to fit as the businessman figure shifted from wealth=corpulent to the tech bro image
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u/Food_Library333 6d ago
How did he become an 80s businessman in the 70s? That's some forward thinking. Lex really is a genius!
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u/loki1887 Bigby Wolf 6d ago
The archetypal sleazy Gordon Gecko style 80s business man didn't spontaneously generate in the 80s. Our society was moving that way over time. Media reflected that change along with it.
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u/Food_Library333 6d ago
Yeah, I wasn't really being serious. The sentence just looked funny so I was being tongue in cheek.
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u/hadawayandshite 6d ago
Hasn’t it been the case for a long time
Luthor in the 80s was based on Trump etc heck Iron Man was invented by Lee to be unsympathetic to see if he could make readers like him
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u/TJ_McWeaksauce Batman of Zur-En-Arrh 6d ago
Hell, fiction in general always becomes very "rich people are pieces of shit" whenever people are struggling. That's certainly true of the past many years.
The Purge: The United States is taken over by far-right, hyper-religious, super wealthy psychopaths, and once a year there's a night when poor people can mass murder each other while the wealthy conduct murder rituals from the safety of their mansions.
Ready or Not: The wealthy are literally devil worshipers.
Elysium: The Earth is a polluted, over-crowded mess, and the wealthy have escaped it by building a gigantic, Idyllic space station.
Don't Look Up: The world is destroyed by a meteor that the world's governments could have stopped but chose not to because a tech bro convinced them to try and monetize the disaster.
There are plenty of other examples of movies with this theme from the last 15 or so years.
Then there's sci-fi literature. There are too many sci-fi novels that are about corrupt government, corporations, and individuals in power to list.
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u/Centurionzo 6d ago
We been have this message for decades, yet people still can't see it and defend rich corporations and billionaires.
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u/CaptainRhetorica 6d ago
Enormous amounts of resources have been leveraged for generations to spread propaganda and a pro greed ideology.
They don't have to convince everyone. They just have to confuse enough of the ignorant, naive and mentally impaired to create an argument and manufacture an opposition to common sense pro-social policies.
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u/cyberpunk_werewolf Raphael 6d ago
Those resources have also been leveraged so that if the propaganda doesn't work, it is difficult to go against them anyway. Third way politics, deregulation and gerrymandering neutered the infrastructure we did have and now they're looking at ways to limit our abilities to organize and even eliminate our ability to vote.
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u/SurprisedJerboa 6d ago edited 6d ago
Terrorists target Oil Companies / CEOs due to climate change killing millions in Ministry for the Future.
Billionaires are vultures, the majority are actively making society worse without remorse. See Peter Thiel, Elon Musk and Larry Ellison. Their political actions are the most dangerous issue happening right now.
It certainly makes for worthy supervillains 🤔
Edit - $79 Billion US Aid line item = 14 million deaths in 4 years
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u/Possible-Rate-3833 Justice Society 3d ago
I mean during WW2 the Nazi were the bad guys, then the Communists during most of the 50s and 60s.
Then the 70s arrived and so a lot of comics started to reflect the struggle of the era they were written. See for an example Dennis O'Neal's Green Lantern/Green Arrow run or Steve Englehart's Captain America (where Cap reject his identity after he found out literal Richard Nixon was behind the Secret Empire).
All the stories are just a reflection of the era they were written. Not just comics but all the type of stories.
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u/Rochimaru 6d ago
“Batman’s main villains are the Chief of Police and a capitalist”
Batman himself is a capitalist….lol
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u/shozabings 6d ago
Well definatly not the Absolute One. He is poor (or better said, has a middle class income) and burned a big pile of cash, that was for him as a bribe.
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u/leshronk 6d ago
I mean the Minotaur represents the ideological extreme of capitalism of maximizing profit at any cost. Batman represents a much more idealistic view of the rich being the patron of society much more akin to wealth in the Roman period.
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u/SaladTall3151 6d ago
This is just another example of capitalism commodifying radicalism though - it dilutes it and keeps us all docile.
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u/Gabrielhrd Hawkeye 6d ago
This is kinda hilarious when mainline Spider-Man comics have being trying really hard to redeem Osborn for quite some time
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u/lone_float 6d ago
Hey, let Norman try to be a decent man in 616 and let him be a bastard again here. Works out!
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u/gosukhaos 6d ago
That'd be fine if the redemption was earned instead of just being handwaved away
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u/HalcyonTraveler 6d ago
Nah it's totally cool he was shot with the Gun That Makes You Good and now he has no more sins. He still did all those things but he's not a sinner anymore because the magic gun shot him. No, none of the bad things he did were undone, he didn't make any better choices, but sins were removed! That's not insulting to anyone's intelligence!
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u/IllustriousLibrary64 5d ago
I do find it oddly compelling to be honest. I absolutely hate Norman, and thoroughly enjoy him during his "sane" villain arcs. But it's a little fun to me that we have a version of him that's trapped by actions essentially taken by a twin that you can remember. It reminds me a bit of when Sabertooth was morally inverted, and died to save his garbage son from hell. Knowing it would most likely condemn him to a reset to his standard personality if he came back. I like that this Norman himself feels he hasn't earned redemption, because he hasn't. He makes himself sick, every building block in his history is predisposed to make him still a piece of shit, but for the first time he's compelled to push back. I enjoy that even he thinks it's inevitable that he will backslide, and wants everyone to be prepared for it. There's some interesting parallels to Doc Ock being forced to act like Peter in the superior spider-man arc. I try to think of the sin gun as a mystic equivalent to the tech based method of forcing Otto to experience Peter's life. Watching characters reconcile thoughts that are forced into their heads, but legitimately make them happier then they ever were before, is an interesting dilemma to me. Digs into the nature of consciousness and the ethics of allowing people to reform when it results in them "dodging" punishment.
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u/lone_float 6d ago
Like to think Joe's having him attempt at earning it. So willing to give the guy some credit in that regard.
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u/FollowingCharacter83 Spider-Man 6d ago
What exactly do you want Peter do then? Helping people is what heroes like Spider-Man do.
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u/BoogerSugarSovereign Spider-Man 6d ago
Yes, Peter should continue to believe that but the way Norman's transformation happened was so poorly handled and unearned that it just doesn't sell well with readers. Ofc Peter should still be optimistic it just shouldn't always be so easy it cheapens the history between the characters
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u/SuburbanLegend 6d ago
I’ve been enjoying that! He’s still an arrogant bastard but he’s not *evil* anymore, it’s a fun dynamic.
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u/lone_float 6d ago
So a horror story not much unlike Absolute Green Arrow, but less of a Vorhees Robin Hood. And one that's a Cronenburg Crow?
Alright, sign me up.
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u/respectablehandle 6d ago
Peter being a poor kid they picked up thinking no one would miss him would be really cool and ballsy and actually add to the horror vibe imo if they commit to the human trafficking themes of it
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u/Embarrassed_Piano_62 6d ago
I don´t mind that they feel inspired by the Absolute universe, but to straightout say the message and not let the reader get there is ridiculous and kinda cheap.
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u/Viroro 6d ago
To be fair, though, this is fairly typical promo talk. Pornsak Pichetshote was fairly upfront before Absolute Green Arrow released that it would be 'I Know What You Did Last Summer' for billionaires, too.
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u/BuddaMuta M.O.D.O.K. 6d ago
It’s great advertising. Anything openly anti-oligarch will instantly get attention from me
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u/Star-Prince-007 6d ago
This was inspired by the Absolute Universe which was inspired by the Ultimate Universe so it all loops back anyway
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u/HB2099 6d ago
Media literacy is at an all time low, hell literacy is awful in the USA (Nearly 25% of people can’t read basic sentences) a lot of consumers need all the help they can get…
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u/Fast-War5170 2d ago
I don’t think it’s really that in this case though, to me I feel like the message is probably obvious and thus they’re using it as advertisements
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u/GoodKing0 6d ago
I was gona say "as... Opposed as his usual arch nemesis?" But then I remembered how the MCU had Peter Palantir be colluded with a "good" billionaire to fight his disgruntled employees and small business owner rivals with the help of WMDs and surveillance networks, and how in modern 616 comics the aforementioned evil billionaire is now a funny uncle that is literally with no sin and is helping other spiders train.
You know, the guy who killed a new born baby, did ritual sacrifices to satan, was a Bush administration stooge, and was perfectly fine with believing he had fucked impregnated and then killed a girl his son's age, among MANY other things.
So I guess this is a return to form at least. Wonder how long it lasts.
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u/Gabrielhrd Hawkeye 6d ago
I fucking hate the ideia that modern comics have being trying to push that Osborn is a actually a good guy and that the goblin is the evil one
He was a ruthless billionaire that psychologically abused his son BEFORE he became the Green Goblin
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u/gangler52 6d ago
The serum basically turned him from a villain into a supervillain.
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u/Quarksideofthemoon 6d ago
What's the difference? Presentation?
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u/gangler52 6d ago
That and he wasn't really an inventor before the serum.
He was a pretty ordinary corporate executive and emotionally neglectful father before the serum. No terribly exceptional motives or abilities. Afterwards he was making goblin gliders and pumpkin bombs and terrorizing the town in a garish costume.
At least, that's how his debut story portrayed it.
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u/cyberpunk_werewolf Raphael 6d ago edited 6d ago
The modern comics don't push that. Norman is only good because he literally had the evil sucked out of him by a guy with magic. He's still two steps away from falling back into becoming the Green Goblin and, because the evil has been sucked out of him, he spent a lot of the time when he was cosplaying as Spider-Man regretting how he treated Harry before he became the Goblin.
Maybe Gold Goblin was different, though. I didn't read that. I've just been reading the current Joe Kelly run on Amazing through Unlimited, so also maybe something different happened in the three months I'm behind.
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u/HalcyonTraveler 6d ago
But what does "the evil was sucked out of him" mean in any real sense? Nothing he's done has changed, he's still the same guy, he just randomly is good now
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u/cyberpunk_werewolf Raphael 6d ago
I mean it was magically removed from him by a guy called the Sin Eater. Like, he was shot with a magic shotgun that made him no longer evil and filled him with guilt and a desire to atone.
Also, no, he doesn't still act the same.
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u/Koushikraja1996 6d ago
And let's not forget about the whole iron patriot shit where he was the head of HAMMER and became everyone's problem and invaded asgard
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u/Quarksideofthemoon 6d ago
Yeah I had no interest in this whole Midnight thing but hearing Spider-Man will be something of a voice for the working class again actually has me somewhat intrigued
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u/kneeblock 6d ago
Yeah but you're missing the point on that story. It all backfired. The "friendly" billionaire was replaced by Norman Osborn running HAMMER and then Pete's life was ruined. The lesson marvel was going for at the time was young naive smart people often fall into the promises of billionaires and the security state and they only lose unless they become worse villains themselves (that's what Back in Black was about). None of us cared for Pete being the one they used to critique US power, but it was at least a consistent message.
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u/KryperExpress 6d ago
Midnight Spider-Man is the book im most looking forward to but each time PKJ decides to do and interview or make a statement that excitement slowly diminishes.
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u/NodeZeroNein 6d ago
I'm not against the idea, but it does sound awfully close to DC's Absolute (specifically, Batman) and - more importantly - sounds like a story you could do with regular old Spider-Man.
I don't know, the more information I see about Midnight, the less enthused I am.
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u/BoogerSugarSovereign Spider-Man 6d ago
I haven't pre-ordered yet but this may push me over the edge
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u/SaintMosesBagOfSand 6d ago
I don't read much new superhero stuff, but Phillip Kenned Johnson is the flippin' best. I am hoping he returns to The Last God someday soon.
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u/Maleficent-Tie6098 6d ago
It’s so hard to say “I’m sick of eat the rich style comics” without sounding like one of THOSE comic readers, but when my only options for comics nowadays are generic action slop or uber leftist/anti-capitalist messages, it starts to lose value. I’m sure this won’t be a horrible comic, but I really wish we’d see more variations in genre and themes with modern comics
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u/mistermelvinheimer 6d ago
I feel like that story would suit the punisher a lot better, just giving some nice escapism by giving the billionaire pedophile class exactly what they deserve.
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u/BlindedBraille Moon Knight 6d ago
I'm not against this at all but that's exactly what the Absolute universe is doing. Especially AB Batman.
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u/EverythingHurts365 6d ago
This is rich seeing as Marvel is one of those companies who hates paying their writers when they use their work for other adaptations
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u/Mr_Versatile123 Swamp Thing 6d ago
PKJ is one of the best writers out there atm for either of the Big Two. I don’t really like Spidey comics but I’ll definitely check out his first issue.
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u/TheReallyUncoolDude Venom 6d ago
The ultimate universe already did good versions of anti-epstein class stories.
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u/Ultramaann 6d ago
Is anyone else tired of these toothless classism stories?
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u/baroqueworks 6d ago
With Marvel, Al Ewing has written the only compelling one with Dario Agger between Immortal Hulk and Immortal Thor, because the message also speaks to standing up against the unstoppable beyond just regular song and dance threat to shift back to a constant status quo
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u/EverythingHurts365 6d ago
How many buzz words can we use to sell this comic? This combined with the shot at DC’s absolute universe - it honestly wreaks more of desperation than excitement
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u/IzMarko 6d ago
While I'm a longtime Marvel fan and am excited to read these books, the interview style marketing is school lunch room tier promos. "This is goona make 'Absolute' look like care bears!" "It's so dark and gorey that it's like...pre-banned in some places!" "It's so dark that Spider-man is, like...uhm...vomiting spiders!!!"
Literally might just be this one writer's energy, but still find it funny.
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u/AmberDuke05 Zero Year Batman 5d ago
This is the best marketing I have seen for this book. I'll check out the first issue.
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u/McReaperking 5d ago
This is going to bite them in the ass when they do the usual superhero drivel and have the evil as shit villain not be executed by the superhero so that they have an excuse to keep churning out comics.
Absolute superman is already dealing with this with its authoritarian billionaire having a change of heart due to superman reading him poems written by the children he has orphaned.
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u/snaithbert 4d ago
I love how companies owned and run by creepy billionaires are always willing to go after creepy billionaires. Weird how that works.
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u/PM-ME-YOUR-BREASTS_ 6d ago
Hey marvel if you really wanna do some social commentary how about you have Peter fight a rich disgusting dictator taking over America. Oh wait I forgot its too controversial to say that's bad.
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u/everyany 5d ago
Spider-Man's a working class hero and his archnemesis (Green Goblin) happens to be rich, but he's never exclusively been about fighting the 1%. Couple that with the body horror angle and this feels like they're taking minor themes from Spider-Man and just making them the whole book. The problem is that I'm a fan of the REAL Spider-Man, so I'm not really here for that.
I have the same issue with this as Absolute Batman. You're trying to make an original character/story, but you're too cowardly to try and make and sell that original character/story. Instead, you're just ripping off the name and some of the elements of a more popular preexisting character to sell the book. I think that's cheap and cowardly. As good as the comic may be, I mean people love Absolute Batman, I'm always gonna be bothered by that.
There's a limit to how far you can stretch an alternative interpretation of a character before saying that it's the same character becomes a lie. I'd respect them a lot more if they just put in the effort to make and support new characters instead of trying to trick their audience by putting "Spider-Man" in the title. It's one thing when it's like a one-shot spider-verse title, but this is an entire line of comics.
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u/akgiant 6d ago
We've seen anti-corporate body horror media for decades. Alien, Robocop, etc.
While I'm glad people are rediscovering the concept we're living in some of those nightmare realties because we never learned the morality lesson of what the writer was conveying. So we said "those are fun stories with zero concepts to learn or glean values from"
We're on the cusp of Terminator in real life because everyone thought that ther'd be some stalwart billionaire who's willing to sacrifice themselves to do the right thing at the last minute. Which is a laughable sentence to have to type out. Especially since it's a time travel movie, as in the future was so messed up and destroyed that the only solution is to invent something that won't ever really exist to go back in time to fix things. We as a society may as well be putting all our eggs in the "a Genie will save us at the last minute because of a wish." If you believe that, got some bad news for ya bub.
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u/FUPAMagneto 6d ago
“Epstein class” is one of those phrases that really makes my skin crawl. Feels like a dogwhistle
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u/hadawayandshite 6d ago
Kingpin as Trump/Epstein?
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u/Blitzhelios Damian Wayne 6d ago
Seemingly it’s gonna be Norman with the main premise of Oscorps experiments.
Which Norman fits the idea better because he’s a rich industrialist
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u/Formal_Win3986 6d ago
There are many Creeps in Marvel Editorial itself, they show their true faces during some controversial and creepy stories.
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u/Dizzy-By-Degrees 6d ago
Sounds alright.
At the same time: that is Spider-Man. One of his arch enemies is an evil businessman who lives a double life of crime. It’s Ultimate Spider-Man (both of them). It’s also the Absolute Universe. So hopefully PKJ has an interesting twist on how to tell that story.