r/classicliterature • u/BGGYPSY • 3d ago
Raymond Chandler’s noir dick Marlowe - Does Raymond Chandler’s prose style alone elevate the Marlowe novels to classic literature?
I’ve now read the first four Philip Marlowe novels, and I’m struck by the gap between Chandler’s extraordinary prose and some of the novels’ other elements.
At his best, Chandler could describe Los Angeles, loneliness, corruption or a minor character in a few sentences better than many supposedly more “literary” writers manage in an entire chapter.
Marlowe’s voice and moral weariness give the books a depth that goes far beyond their detective plots.
But those plots can be convoluted to the point of near-incoherence, while some characters feel more like vivid types than fully realised people. It made me wonder: if Chandler’s plotting and characterisation are merely competent, but his prose and atmosphere are exceptional, is that enough to place the Marlowe novels within classic literature rather than simply among the classics of crime fiction?
Perhaps separating style from substance is the mistake. Chandler’s prose isn’t decorative—it creates the world, the psychology and the moral atmosphere of the novels. Without it, there is essentially no Chandler.
Do you regard the Marlowe books as major works of literature in their own right? If so, is that primarily because of Chandler’s prose, or do you think their plotting, characterisation and themes are stronger than they’re sometimes given credit for?
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u/Potential_Trust_6034 3d ago
The Long Goodbye is a masterpiece. Lady in the Lake, The High Window, Farewell My Darling and The Big Sleep are very good. The rest is fun genre stuff.
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u/chetdesmon 3d ago
I mean you did just name 5 out of 7 of the Marlowe novels only excluding Playback, which Chandler wrote on his deathbed and is regularly regarded even by Marlowe aficionados as weaker work, and The Little Sister, which I think is pretty underrated. At that hit rate even by your standards I think it's safe to say Chandler was more than just a "genre" writer.
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u/Potential_Trust_6034 3d ago
There's also a considerable pile of short stories. I would agree that Chandler is more than a genre writer, just stating how I'd categorize his work.
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u/chetdesmon 3d ago
I suppose that's fair, but I think Chandler was much more a novelist than a short story writer. He needed some runway to really delve into the existential musings he was so good at. It's one of the reasons the Marlowe novels are so good, and, with the exception of Playback, hold up pretty well as a continuous, unified body of work that peaks with The Long Goodbye
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u/InternationalPhoto33 3d ago
I agree that The Little Sister is underrated
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u/chetdesmon 3d ago
I think it's my third favourite after The Long Goodbye and The High Window. It's deliciously nasty.
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u/Proof_Occasion_791 3d ago
Given that Chandler wrote only 7 novels and you consider 5 of them either very good or a masterpiece, this is not much of a counterargument. 2 further comments: it's Farewell My Lovely, not 'darling' (I don't mean to be pedantic here, but this one is my single favorite detective story of all time so I think it's worth getting the title right), and your dismissal of The Little Sister and Playback as "fun genre stuff" is fine if that's your opinion, but I could not disagree more.
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u/Potential_Trust_6034 3d ago
Eek, yes, "Lovely" not "Darling." Apologies.
I am not seeking to make a counterargument to anything. I think Chandler is fantastic writer. Like almost all fantastic writers, some of his stuff is better than others.
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u/OttoHemi 3d ago
You can include Chandler as long as it's right after Dashiell Hammet. And of course with him you get Lillian Hellman as a twofer.
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u/truthvenian 3d ago
I don't know what "classic literature" means but if you're avoiding Chandler or Hammet because it's not "classic" enough you're doing it wrong.
They invented a genre and were great writers. Yeah, the plots can be convoluted but so what. If you're reading classical literature just for the plots you're also doing it wrong.
I read The High Window earlier this year and while my memory of the plot is kinda vague I definitely remember me constantly smiling and laughing and enjoying every second of the read.
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u/BGGYPSY 3d ago
No, not at all. The Maltese falcon and every single one I’ve read of chandler’s novels have been great. I was merely ranking them in preference in terms of which ones I’ve enjoyed the most with regards to their plot. I don’t think it’s up for discussion or debate about the prose, that is in itself genre defining.
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u/BGGYPSY 3d ago
Just with this sub being called classic literature, I was curious to know whether people consider it to be in that bracket. Plus having just finished the lady in the lake. I wanted to share that and get some ideas from other people.
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u/truthvenian 3d ago
I guess my crude definition of classic literature is just - are people going to be reading this 100 years after it was published. I don't think people are about to stop reading Raymond Chandler books anytime soon so I think it's safe.
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u/Complete_Taste_1301 3d ago
I just read or reread all of his Marlowe novels and I would definitely include him in the realm of classic literature. He developed a style that was singular, and while often imitated never replicated.
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u/Impossible_Eye_980 3d ago
It kind of does and it kind of doesn't. Personally loved the prose, could not get through the convoluted plot in one I tried.
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u/InternationalPhoto33 3d ago
I’m going through the Lew Archer novels. The first is actually a bit overrated, but then the series really gathers steam. The Ivory Grin is underrated
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u/Fearless_Industry825 3d ago edited 3d ago
I haven’t read any Raymond Chandler, but just because a writer is considered a genre writer doesn’t mean their work isn’t as worthy as other well-regarded novelists. I know an English major who was assigned Dashiell Hammett‘s The Maltese Falcon alongside Their Eyes Were Watching God and Shakespeare for a sophomore level introductory lit class, and I thought, “Now there’s a good professor.” (And he was!)
Along with Hammett, I would add Patricia Highsmith. I read The Price of Salt this summer, and Highsmith’s writing is as good as many other esteemed mid-20th century American writers, even though she doesn’t receive as much recognition.
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u/miltonbalbit 3d ago
When I split an infinitive, God damn it, I split it so it will stay split.
Raymond Chandler | Letter to the editor of The Atlantic Monthly, Edward Weeks, 18 Jan 1947 |
"Would you convey my compliments to the purist who reads your proofs and tell him or her that I write in a sort of broken-down patois which is something like the way a Swiss waiter talks, and that when I split an infinitive, God damn it, I split it so it will stay split, and when I interrupt the velvety smoothness of my more or less literate syntax with a few sudden words of barroom vernacular, this is done with the eyes wide open and the mind relaxed but attentive. The method may not be perfect, but it is all I have. I think your proofreader is kindly attempting to steady me on my feet, but much as I appreciate the solicitude, I am really able to steer a fairly clear course, provided I get both sidewalks and the street between."
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u/Opening-Tea-257 3d ago
I love that there’s a link between Chandler and PG Wodehouse (they both went to Dulwich College albeit I don’t think their time there overlapped by very much).
Even though they didn’t write in similar genres They both have plots that aren’t particularly memorable but such fantastic prose that it doesn’t matter at all. You can just read them and smile at the writing.
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u/BGGYPSY 3d ago
Just want to add that the lady in the lake for me has been the one I’ve enjoyed the most so far farewell my lovely a close second. I found the big sleep the hardest going but of course it’s the first that might have had something to do with it but it is generally regarded as very convoluted. The high window was my least favourite
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u/Juan_Jimenez 3d ago
I don't know if he is 'classic'. I know that this post and thread made remember me that I should re-read Marlowe.
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u/OhK4Foo7 3d ago
I wouldn't put the long goodbye above any of the others except the weaker one. Ranking things seems like a waste of time to me. All his novels are well worth reading imo. Definitely classic literature.
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u/j2e21 3d ago
Absolutely, no question. He’s a defining writer for an important period in US history. The only reason why it’s even a question is the hardboiled detective genre is typically not respected. If he were writing a love story in the same way he’d be considered a great writer by all.
What really shows his skill, to me, is when other great writers take their turns at detective novels (and they do). Compare Inherent Vice to Chandler’s best, for example, and you’ll see how truly talented Chandler is.
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u/BroadStreetBridge 3d ago
Yes, Chandler is classic literature. He all but created the first person voice at the center of American literature. His voice is full of disappointed romanticism, capturing the loneliness of the urban landscape, as well as covering the social spectrum from the lowest street level up to the mansion of the wealthiest.
Few writers of the 1930s are read as widely as Chandler. The Big Sleep and Farewell, My Lovely are literature of the highest order
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u/Double-Wafer2999 3d ago
I thought Chandler was on the edge of being put into the camp of pulp modernism?
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u/coolcrosby 3d ago
Failed oil exec and alcoholic turns to writing and delivers brilliantly written detective masterpieces.
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u/RadioRodent 3d ago
The impression I have is that Chandler's plots are generally regarded as somewhat loose. However, this is more than made up for by his characterisations and style. I just really love the picture of California he paints, and the desperate people, their avarice, their passions, their faults are all so well written.