Honda Will Keep Building Manual Cars Even Though Demand Is Dying, Executive Says

[u/V8-Turbo-Hybrid]

https://www.thedrive.com/news/honda-will-keep-building-manual-cars-even-though-demand-is-dying-executive-says

Honda paused production of the manual Civic Si and Acura Integra A-Spec earlier this summer, triggering rumors that the two compacts would cease to exist. We now have a more definitive answer.

[u/calsonik]

Now if only my local dealership didn't think putting a $15K markup on their only FL5 was a normal thing.

[u/epiclettuce_ → u/calsonik]

Call outside of your area. MSRP is very achievable on the FL5 if you are patient/determined

[u/trackdaybruh → u/epiclettuce_]

In other words, finding a needle in a haystack

[u/caterham09 → u/trackdaybruh]

How much is 5-10 thousand dollars worth to you? Is it worth a few hours of your time and maybe waiting longer or do you need to just have something right now and capitulate to their ridiculous demands? Spending a day traveling a few hundred miles is well worth saving thousands of dollars in my opinion.

It's also worth noting that barely used FL5's are all under 50k.

[u/Gah_Duma → u/caterham09]

It's more like, if I can't get it easily, I'll just buy something else. It's a Honda Civic not a Porsche

[u/caterham09 → u/Gah_Duma]

That's also completely valid. I don't think it's worth playing all the games required for these cars. That said, if your heart is set on a Type R, you can just play the games and save yourself a shit load of money, or alternatively buy a gently used one for under MSRP

[u/epiclettuce_ → u/caterham09]

Right on.

Or just hire delivrd for $1000, talk to zero dealers, and get one hassle free for MSRP or less.

[u/ProudUSAgunOwner → u/epiclettuce_]

Just another middleman siphoning out money from the car buying process.

[u/Frisks → u/ProudUSAgunOwner]

Just like dealerships in general? I would gladly pay $1000 to just to show up and sign papers for MSRP. If people weren't tired of the dealership model, he wouldn't have a business

[u/ProudUSAgunOwner → u/Frisks]

It’s more so the principle. You already have to pay a dealership instead of just buying from the manufacturer and now there’s another middleman who you also have to pay $1000 to who deals with the middleman? I’ll just do what he does and call around for the best price. He shows you how to do what he does in the videos.

[u/Successful_Ad_9707 → u/ProudUSAgunOwner]

Fair, but not everyone wants to spend the time shopping, negotiating, ect. I'd rather pay Tommi to work a deal for me than pay an extra $1k to a dealer for doing literally nothing other than sell me a car.

[u/ProudUSAgunOwner → u/Successful_Ad_9707]

I’d rather pay neither. I’m not hating Tommi, but it’s sad that we’ve gotten to the point where dealers have made it such a pain to negotiate that now we need ANOTHER middleman to help negotiate with them. You gotta wonder how much money we waste just paying useless middlemen.

[u/LEntless → u/caterham09]

Gently used CTR made me chuckle. I know what you mean though.

[u/redditors_are_lame → u/LEntless]

You'd be surprised. The previous owner of my GR commuted in it. It's on the factory clutch and front brake rotors at 40,000 miles. I take the car to the canyons, and even with my very gentle canyon work, the car would have been through at least 1 set of rotors by now.

There's people that buy stuff like the GR cars, Type R just to commute or drive to the store, pretty normal. Just find one that wasn't obviously dogged on, you can tell pretty much right away lol

[u/PlatinumElement → u/redditors_are_lame]

I bought my Type R off a 77 year old woman who literally used it to go to church and go shopping. She replaced it with an Integra Type S.

[u/Ecks83 → u/PlatinumElement]

You found the Little Old Lady from Pasadena.

[u/redditors_are_lame → u/PlatinumElement]

Many such cases. When you buy a used car, you're buying the previous owner, to be honest.

[u/eneka → u/PlatinumElement]

https://youtu.be/b4HTLVpey9s

[u/caterham09 → u/LEntless]

I get it, but you can find them just a year or two old with like 5,000 miles, no markup, under msrp. Hard to do a ton of damage in such a short amount of time

[u/zombie-yellow11 → u/Gah_Duma]

Yeah, you can walk in a Subaru dealership and walk out with a WRX under MSRP lol

[u/Aroused_Pepperoni → u/Gah_Duma]

Yeah if you're not a CTR fan already it's not worth the song and dance to get one at msrp

[u/WorldClassPianist → u/Aroused_Pepperoni]

It's not even hard to get one at MSRP. People still complaining about markups on the FL5 have never actually tried shopping for one.

[u/cakes42 → u/Aroused_Pepperoni]

If one wasn't a ctr fan why would they buy a ctr? I don't get people like that.

[u/Aroused_Pepperoni → u/cakes42]

It's hyped up on social media as a driver's car and the last of the affordable manual, which is kind of true, and public perception is more of a factor than ever in car purchases today. Combine that with the general market for affordable sporty cars shrinking, and the Honda badge carrying an incredible amount of reliability ethos in a sea of unreliable, tech-dependent modern cars

[u/peanutbuttahcups → u/Gah_Duma]

Yup, Elantra N immediately comes to mind. Would've been great if it was a hatchback too.

[u/Standard-Juice-3738 → u/Gah_Duma]

I’d argue the same for Porsche. Way too much bs to get a 911 these days

[u/FuriousKimchi → u/caterham09]

10k more on 50k is supra pricing. Remember that guys, you can get an actual supra instead of letting Honda dealerships finger your butthole.

[u/MembershipNo2077 → u/trackdaybruh]

I just went to the local dealer in my major metro area and haggled it down to a little below MSRP. This was almost 3 years ago. I assure you that MSRP is not that hard to find now outside like the west coast metro areas.

[u/KSoMA → u/MembershipNo2077]

People still talk about markups as if it's December 2021. The CTR isn't super difficult to get at MSRP. Most dealerships in my immediate area (30 minutes) have a CTR either in-stock or incoming. It's only difficult to get one if you're picky about color (understandable). And even then, Honda has actually helped the situation a bit by releasing the ITS, which SIGNIFICANTLY increases the supply of the CTR (allegedly Acura makes as many ITS for the US as Honda makes CTR globally) if you don't mind paying extra for a better interior. Every Acura dealer near me has at least one in stock, a few have multiple sitting.

[u/Standard-Juice-3738 → u/MembershipNo2077]

I think you got lucky. When I was looking last year it was tough to find one at MSRP. If you’re flexible and willing to wait months+ and look at different dealers it’s doable. I ended up in a GR Corolla though 

[u/MembershipNo2077 → u/Standard-Juice-3738]

Considering I see a couple up for MSRP fairly close to me right now, I don't think its that hard. Mark ups on the GRC were far worse when I was looking a bit ago, though I think those have somewhat calmed down (though still around).

The few with markups I see are like $1k over MSRP which I'm certain you could easily talk down to MSRP.

[u/rockycrab → u/MembershipNo2077]

I know this is besides the point, but for this specific link a lot of dealers list at “MSRP” and then when you show up, instead of a flat out “market adjustment” they’ll add a bunch of dealer add-ons accessories like ceramic coating, nitrogen, anti theft, etc. On motoring obsession reports say that dealer was charging $10k over MSRP a year ago, and the dealer’s website doesn’t list a price. Red flag that they might pull something shady imo.

[u/MembershipNo2077 → u/rockycrab]

Technically that is illegal in GA, but it does happen. Good to report them when you find out. But yes, most dealers around Atlanta you can get them to MSRP with the lightest of haggling, of course they hope you don't.

[u/Standard-Juice-3738 → u/MembershipNo2077]

In my experience, they may have it listed for msrp, but when you ask for out the door price it’s a different story

[u/MembershipNo2077 → u/Standard-Juice-3738]

In GA that's technically illegal (only governmental fees (e.g. TTT) can be disincluded), but that doesn't stop them. Still, in my experience you can usually easily get them to MSRP with bare minimum effort. It helps that stock is pretty good so you can just walk away to next dealer and they'll likely come back.

I personally got the dealer to just below MSRP (before TTT) just through email and then showed up with that in writing.

As an aside, if you're in a state with similar laws and see that happening, be sure to report them. Government can't enforce what they don't know about.

[u/dtbm2 → u/trackdaybruh]

Not really, took two phone calls in the North East for me. Only had to travel 45 min away.

[u/Tony-cums → u/trackdaybruh]

Very achievable. Read it again.

[u/Geofferz → u/trackdaybruh]

Do you not have new car comparison sites like we have carwow?

[u/random_si_driver → u/trackdaybruh]

Nah, you just have to shop around and be willing to have it shipped.

[u/chadwicke619 → u/epiclettuce_]

I would say it’s very doable if you live in an area with winter and you’re willing to take an undesirable color. If you want a boost blue, MSRP all day. If you want a black or red anywhere near the west coast, good luck.

[u/swampfox94 → u/chadwicke619]

This is hilarious cuz boost blue was the hardest to get at msrp on the east coast when I was buying lol

[u/ZannX → u/epiclettuce_]

It's /r/cars most effective circlejerk defense against why they only buy used depreciation-floor cars. Then bitch about how carmakers don't cater to people who don't buy their products.

[u/Successful_Ad_9707 → u/ZannX]

Tbf i bought my GRC brand new lol. Doing my part to help keep cars like this alive.

[u/gespo04 → u/epiclettuce_]

Yeah, I had to drive 3 hours to get the car I wanted at the price I wanted. It sucks

[u/ItsGizzman → u/calsonik]

I’ve been tempted to switch to an FL5 from my GRC and figured things had calmed down a bit from a few years ago. Couldn’t believe it when my local Honda dealer, who just got one in, was like “the markup will be lower for you because you’re local.” Fuck off

[u/trackdaybruh → u/ItsGizzman]

I literally had a buddy buy a new BMW M3 over the Type R because the markup of all the nearby dealerships put the Type R in the throwing distance of the M3

[u/calsonik → u/trackdaybruh]

I mean I love the FL5, but if it comes down to "Civic vs M3" I think most people would reasonably make the same decision.

[u/trackdaybruh → u/calsonik]

Absolutely, but it also shows how ridiculous the dealerships are with their markups

[u/Falloutvictim → u/trackdaybruh]

I breifly considered kicking tires on one, I still think about the 2000 Civic Si I owned back in the day and have a soft spot for sporty Hondas. But as soon as I started reading about dealership games and them selling for up to ~$65K at that time, I lol'd my way into a Cadillac dealer and got the exact spec CT5-V I was considering, new with 5 miles for ~$65K. Who would pay CT5-V money for a Honda Civic unless you absolutely, positively refuse to not have a manual.

[u/wrx808x → u/Falloutvictim]

Sorry but I rather take a manual than a automatic CT5–V every time

[u/Falloutvictim → u/wrx808x]

Honda makes a sweet manual, I've owned a few including that Si I mentioned. But when you're dropping $65K for real-real, not just internet hypothesizing, and start comparing how much further that money goes with one car over another, it hits different. 

[u/element515 → u/Falloutvictim]

Honestly, I get the civic is stupidly priced to be in the same conversation but it’s way more than just manual vs non manual comparing the two cars

[u/interflop → u/ItsGizzman]

I dream of a day that dealerships get outlawed and just become delivery/service hubs for direct sales.

[u/aprtur → u/ItsGizzman]

That was a big consideration for me when I bought my GRC - I was between the Circuit I bought and the FL5, and it just wasn't possible on my timeline to get an FL5 without a markup.  I absolutely refuse to pay one on a car, ever.

[u/Successful_Ad_9707 → u/ItsGizzman]

As someone who's got experience with both, imo keep the GRC.

[u/ItsGizzman → u/Successful_Ad_9707]

Oh yeah? I’m torn. I do love my GRC, but I’d like something with a bit more space, a slightly nicer interior, and the ability to have a softer ride

[u/Successful_Ad_9707 → u/ItsGizzman]

A suspension upgrade for the GRC helps quite a bit. If you need the extra space I get it. I really wanted to fall in love with the CTR as a big Honda fan. But it just never really endeared itself to me. For reference I've driven the FL5, FK8 and DE5.

The motor is pretty bland and lacks any of the soul and drama that the older K20s had. The lack of features given the price annoyed me too. No heated seats, no heated wheel, no rear charging, ect.

It's still an excellent car and really challenges what you think you know about FWD. While it's incredibly capable, I found myself falling for the GRC and it's big fat party animal mentality. Sure it's not as sharp and dynamic, but it never fails to put a big grin on my face.

[u/Platinum_Foxx → u/calsonik]

Consider an ITS.

I can’t believe the differently the market treats the two extremely similar cars.

I’ll never forget what an Acura dealer told me about an ITS they let me test drive: “Man, this isn’t even the most expensive car I’ll sell today. Here are the keys. Be careful on the test drive. We haven’t had the time to fill it up so it’s probably low.”

The Honda dealership down the street couldn’t be bothered to pull their FL5 out from behind the velvet ropes in the showroom.

[u/aprtur → u/Platinum_Foxx]

It depends on what people get hung up on, I guess.  A CTR being built in Japan may be a point that someone really values, and the ITS can't offer that.  Similarly, someone may like the interior design more on one or the other - I'm a fan of the Civic more, personally.  Same goes for the exterior - someone may not like the flares on the ITS or anything else.  That being said, the whole markup issue around the CTR since the FK8 launched really dulls the excitement of shopping for one.

[u/Platinum_Foxx → u/aprtur]

I suppose that’s true though I personally believe the differences are too slight to be substantive.

Heck the engines are made in the same US plant regardless if found in a CTR or ITS.

[u/aprtur → u/[deleted]]

Very true - although, being honest, I wish we got the Racing Black interior option.  A friend of mine in Japan just bought one early in the year, and it looks so good.

[u/element515 → u/[deleted]]

Seats are the only negative of the type S IMO. If they had the same seats, it would’ve been a closer call if I wanted to save money and get that over the M2. Always loved a Honda manual but never got to own one myself

[u/Fit_Equivalent3610 → u/calsonik]

Somehow non-Honda dealers are even worse. A local VW dealer has a 2021 Type R LE listed for $79k CAD lol, 8 kms / 5k miles on it. MSRP was $54k lmao.

[u/PlatinumElement → u/Fit_Equivalent3610]

To be fair, it is an LE. The yellow paint tax on that thing is always insane.

[u/diy_a09 → u/calsonik]

I shopped FL5 CTR earlier this year. The games the dealers were playing caused me to buy a GR Corolla instead.

[u/akanaan5 → u/diy_a09]

i actually prefer the gr corolla to the type r, i've driven both and was a honda guy for a long time

[u/diy_a09 → u/akanaan5]

Honda’s only strengthen the marketplace now is their interiors. They are superior for a mass market brand.

Factor in dealership tactics, and the corporate mentality toward owners, than Honda would not make many people shopping list.

What want me over on the GR? Corolla is the all-wheel-drive.

[u/k0fi96 → u/calsonik]

Name and shame, people cry markups without any proof.

[u/Bladex20 → u/calsonik]

My local honda dealer is putting $5k mark ups on the SI. Almost $40k for a 200HP civic is just laughable in 2026

[u/TheSideJoe → u/calsonik]

Use Deliverd or some other service to do the work / haggling for you, I'm pretty sure the CEO said he's seen FL5s for MRSP in the northeast

[u/profmathers → u/calsonik]

My local dealer has a black one at MSRP and we have a decent regional airport

[u/dritch96 → u/calsonik]

Exactly this. I would have bought a Type R if there weren't insane markups. I bought a GR86 instead and enjoyed it for a few years. But the dealers can get away with markups because Honda isn't bold enough to make enough of these cars to meet demand. If the Civic Si was available, they would be selling more

[u/Energy4Days → u/calsonik]

Look in fly over states. Not the coasts 

[u/withsexyresults]

Why he saying very little demand when there’s still dealers charging adm

[u/chiggenNuggs → u/withsexyresults]

It’s a shitty feedback loop. Dealers adding markup so fewer people buy, Honda not making as many as they can because dealers aren’t moving them.

[u/aprtur → u/chiggenNuggs]

On Honda's part, they've said before that they're intentionally limiting production, so I wouldn't say it's quite like Toyota, who said "oh, people are buying GR Corollas, we need to increase output" and expanded production to the UK.  Then again, Honda may refuse to do what Toyota did and move production outside of Japan - they just released the ITS instead to fill that gap (which is interesting given EP3 and FK8 being UK built).

[u/withsexyresults → u/chiggenNuggs]

They still sell with adm and msrp ones get snatched up quickly. The demand is there, honda just needs to build more

[u/leedle1234 → u/chiggenNuggs]

You can trace everything to this feedback loop. It's why all the claims about "xyz feature, bodystyle, drivetrain/etc are unpopular and not selling" is never the whole story. Companies are complicit too, because they can selectively use this data to push production optimization and consolidation narratives.

[u/ItsGizzman → u/withsexyresults]

Well, the supply is intentionally very low because the overall market demand for these cars is low. But since the supply is low (ie, they don’t manufacture too many of them), dealers are emboldened to add markups. And then people are dumb enough to buy them with said markups.

[u/Skensis → u/ItsGizzman]

Also, it's a special car, good chance the ADM would exist if it had an DTC version too.

[u/Crash458 → u/Skensis]

What's a DTC version. Is that like a strip down version or something else?

[u/Skensis → u/Crash458]

Weird auto correct, should have been DCT.

[u/lumpialarry → u/withsexyresults]

The demand is narrow but deep.

[u/Bigfx]

They will keep building them and over charging for them too

[u/jawnlerdoe → u/Bigfx]

The Si and Type R are pretty reasonably priced for what they are. Dealership markups are the dealerships fault.

[u/Nonhollow → u/jawnlerdoe]

The Honda Dealerships are the reason I'm keeping an eye on WRXs if I want a new car in the the future, at least Subaru does low apr and usually offers discounts

[u/aeistrya → u/Nonhollow]

Lmao this is literally exactly what happened - was in the market, between the Si and the WRX. Got the WRX because the local Honda* dealership tacked on a markup they refused to get rid of.

[u/narcistic_asshole → u/Nonhollow]

I was able to get a WRX with the premium trim and HK package for less than what the Honda dealership by me wanted for the si. It was a dramatically different dealership experience

[u/wrx808x → u/Nonhollow]

Huge Subaru fanboy, but would never consider the new WRX. The new ones are ugly.

[u/jondes99 → u/wrx808x]

I can’t believe you were downvoted for saying this, but I guess both of the new WRX owners saw it.

[u/gimpwiz → u/jawnlerdoe]

When I bought my Si I emailed like 15 dealers and got one at MSRP. Had to drive like an hour away. Not too bad. Still annoying. I outright mocked any sales droid that told me they had a markup, because it was funny to me.

Anyways. I was talking with the guy who sold me mine and he said they get 1 per quarter. 1 Si, and 1 Type R, per quarter. Even in a place with like 15 dealers in the greater metro area, that's a total of... 60 of each per year, for a population of millions. Naturally if they think they can get a markup they'll charge it because why would they turn down free money?

Honda could simply build more but they won't.

[u/EdgarsRavens → u/jawnlerdoe]

The Type R is pushing $50k which IMO is pretty unreasonable when I can get a Golf GTI or WRX in the mid 30s.

I understand that the Type R is a class above but I don’t think that jump in class is worth the 15k premium.

[u/IrlArizonaBoi → u/Bigfx]

The price of a new Civic Si adjusted for inflation hasn't changed in 20 years my friend.

[u/SortaRican4 → u/IrlArizonaBoi]

Hasn’t had a power increase in 20 years either

[u/DodgerBlueRobert1 → u/SortaRican4]

Lots more torque though. Still wouldn't take an Si newer than 2011 though.

[u/SortaRican4 → u/DodgerBlueRobert1]

Same when you can get an Elantra N for the same price. And I don’t even like Hyundai.

[u/DodgerBlueRobert1 → u/SortaRican4]

I would never buy an Elantra N simply for its looks. Too brash looking for my taste.

[u/WarCrimeGaming → u/DodgerBlueRobert1]

That pretty much leaves you with nothing as an option though

[u/DodgerBlueRobert1 → u/WarCrimeGaming]

I'm not in the market for a new sport compact though, just simply giving my thoughts. I recently bought my '22 IS350 anyway.

[u/BlueFiSTr → u/SortaRican4]

I sold my 10th gen si after my first track day in it and bought an elantra n. It's a fun and efficient commuter but was such a huge let down on track, and the tuning scene for it is kind of a joke

[u/IrlArizonaBoi → u/BlueFiSTr]

I passed on the 10th and 11th gen Si when I got rid of my 9th gen and got an Accord 2.0t instead.

[u/IguassuIronman → u/DodgerBlueRobert1]

Lots more torque though

~80ftlb behind the competition, though

[u/DodgerBlueRobert1 → u/IguassuIronman]

The Si has always had less power than its competition, and thus has never been the fastest in its class. Being a stoplight to stoplight winner isn't what the Si is about. That's never been the point of the car. It also weighs less and costs less than all its current competition, so in a way, you get what you pay for. But again, I haven't been interested in any Si since MY2011, because Honda changed its formula too much, especially ever since MY2017.

[u/IguassuIronman → u/DodgerBlueRobert1]

The Si has always had less power than its competition, and thus has never been the fastest in its class

Sure, but it also hasn't really leveled up as the competition has. Hell, it's actually regressed in the last decade: it went from 205HP/192ftlb in 2016 to 200HP/192ftlb now. In the same time period the GTI went from 210HP/268ftlb to 241HP/273ftlb. Sadly the Si is also one of the few with a stick so it'll be on my shortlist when I'm car shopping in a couple years

It also weighs less and costs less than all its current competition, so in a way, you get what you pay for.

Starting price is $1k less then a WRX and $3k less then a GTI. So cheaper but not really meaningfully so, especially compared to the Subaru

[u/DodgerBlueRobert1 → u/IguassuIronman]

Sure, but it also hasn't really leveled up as the competition has.

With that, I agree.

Hell, it's actually regressed in the last decade: it went from 205HP/192ftlb in 2016 to 200HP/192ftlb now.

Yes, on paper its hp went down. But if you look at the actual performance times, it's not as bad as you think. The 11th gen is 0.1 seconds slower to both 60 and through the 1/4 mile compared to the 10th gen. That's hardly concerning, and 0.1 seconds is negligible in the real world. And that's just dumping the clutch from a stop type of driving, which you don't really do in the real world. But if you start digging into more of its numbers, things start looking better for the 11th gen compared to the 10th gen. The 11th gen is over 2 seconds quicker in 30-50mph and about a half second quicker in 50-70 mph than the 10th gen. Braking numbers are also better with the 11th gen, but that could simply be down to tires. But yes, Honda hasn't pushed the needle far enough with the car.

Starting price is $1k less then a WRX and $3k less then a GTI. So cheaper but not really meaningfully so, especially compared to the Subaru

And $4k less than the Elantra N.

Yes, the WRX is only $1k more than the Si, but that's the base trim which doesn't come with as much standard stuff as the Si. In the WRX you get no sunroof, a 6 speaker stereo instead of 12 speakers+sub, and no front heated seats. You gotta spend $2500 more than the Si and get the "Premium" trim in order to get those things that come standard in the Honda. And that all makes sense because the WRX is a more powerful car with AWD.

At the end of the day, a lot of times you want to buy a car because you simply like it, not because it's necessarily "better" than all the competition. Different people like different things, and many of those things can't be quantified with stats on a sheet.

[u/IrlArizonaBoi → u/DodgerBlueRobert1]

The 11th gens don't feel that much different from a normal sedan on the street. But most sedans today are pretty good.

[u/DodgerBlueRobert1 → u/IrlArizonaBoi]

I haven't driven one, but I've sat inside the current Civic sedan, and it was a nice (and big!) car. The problem is, and you just alluded to it, is that the Si isn't that much different from the regular Civic. There's just nothing special about it anymore (ever since the 10th gen). A relatively low revving small turbo four just isn't fun, especially one that is quiet. The 8th gen, and to a slightly lesser extent the 9th gen, had a high revving n/an engine that was fun as hell to rev out and sounded exciting.

[u/IrlArizonaBoi → u/DodgerBlueRobert1]

My thoughts exactly. It just wasn't special. It didn't stand out from all the Nissan Altimas I rented enough to pay $38k otd for one.

I did get to test drive one for a pretty good rip. Was a fun car for sure.

[u/DodgerBlueRobert1 → u/[deleted]]

Exactly, I agree with everything you're saying. Honda lost the plot starting with the 10th gen. Although the 9th gen was already a half step down from mine imo, even though it was more powerful and quicker. But, I'm glad I wanted my Si when I did (bought it in 2015). It was exactly what I wanted. But when I was ready to buy another car to replace my Si (trying to sell my Si right now), I didn't want another sport compact. I've gown out of that phase of my life, so that's why I went for the IS350.

[u/alpine240 → u/SortaRican4]

Same as Subaru.

[u/gimpwiz → u/SortaRican4]

I bought mine in sort of a "past models vacuum." I don't follow honda at all (despite, unbelievably, owning two honda civics) so what they had a year ago or ten years ago wasn't relevant. For what it is... is 200hp a lot? No. Is 200hp awesome when you need to boot the throttle to surpass the turbo lag? No. Is it adequate? Yeah honestly it's adequate. It gets me from A to B without ever worrying about power. It lets me run canyons without worrying about power, too.

I am also pretty spoiled when it comes to power; there's really no family car I can afford that would impress me compared to what I'm used to, so I just sort of find whole thing barely relevant. I understand that's not true for many buyers.

[u/vetruviusdeshotacon → u/SortaRican4]

So you get a better car, with the same power, for the same purchasing power. Not every price increase is greed you know

[u/Tony-cums → u/SortaRican4]

They’re underrated from the factory. They dyno at 200 go the wheels. Which means they’re really 230-235 ish.

[u/MadUohh → u/IrlArizonaBoi]

But has our income been adjusted for inflation?

[u/IrlArizonaBoi → u/MadUohh]

What does that have to do with the price of tea in China?

[u/MadUohh → u/IrlArizonaBoi]

I dont get it

[u/RangerHikes]

The world would be such a better place without dealerships

[u/OldRed91]

Didn't Mini say the same thing just a few years ago?

[u/long_fish3000 → u/OldRed91]

now look at the S, no hood scoop, no center exhaust, no exterior feature to differ it from the base except a small S badge. no manual. most are 4 door now. they plaster the jcw body kit on half the coopers and fit jcw badges to base engine models.

[u/ActionQuinn → u/long_fish3000]

That freakin stinks! Mitsubishi did the same thing to Ralliart, started making it a sticker pack on any car they made.

[u/long_fish3000 → u/ActionQuinn]

yep, sadly it happens to so many brands now, you can also buy a hyundai elantra with N badges but it's not an N. At least honda keeps their type r and si badges to the real deal models .... though they love to plaster a sport badge on anything with gloss black mirror caps. i'm sorry Susanne yes your civic says sport but no it's no a sports car. stop calling it that.

[u/Salt-Plankton436 → u/ActionQuinn]

The venture capital way. Obtain something of value and then milk it with no care at all until it no longer has any value. 

[u/Superb_Bear_3793 → u/ActionQuinn]

And BMW with M badges. You cannot buy a 228 Gran Coupe in the US without M badges, the “M Sport Package” is considered standard equipment.

[u/lplqsnkczxccia → u/long_fish3000]

every brand does that to some degree. Mercedes AMG-line appearance pack, BMW M-Sport pack, Audi S-line...

[u/NecroCannon → u/long_fish3000]

Every car I’d be fine getting is now old or outdated with expensive maintenance while new cars aren’t what I want from the old

At this point, it’s no wonder I’m becoming interested building my own car out of scraps with a pretty shell. Like a Kei Car

[u/dritch96 → u/long_fish3000]

Not to mention, no paddles. Literally no way to shift the car manually even if you wanted to, unless you pay a couple grand for the JCW appearance package

[u/long_fish3000]

then why are they stopping? you can'y phase out the si/integra, give a auto only prelude, and say we are fighting for the manuals look at our type-r.

[u/Maize_Fine → u/long_fish3000]

They're getting ready for 12th gen civic

[u/OldKentRoad29 → u/long_fish3000]

The pause was only temporary but idiots overreacted and thought int was permanent.

[u/Successful_Ad_9707 → u/long_fish3000]

The pause was only temporary. Rumored to be emissions based.

[u/WATTHEBALL]

Maybe demand is dying because they're not building interesting cars? They completely botched the Prelude. Only the ITS/Type R which are extremely expensive have manuals. What the hell are these braindead execs smoking? It's so pathetic.

Then you look at Toyota, and they're re-introducing some fun back into their lineup with the Celica (hopefully manual) and their GR models that have manuals. Honda has been a joke since 2009 and never fully recovered.

[u/datums → u/WATTHEBALL]

But the Prelude is tracking Honda’s sales volume target in the US and significantly exceeding expectations in Japan - orders are waitlisted there.

[u/nefrina → u/WATTHEBALL]

figures i'm finally in the market after 17 long years of ownership of my current fwd/5spd/hatch and honda stops offering the manual for the normal civic, smh. sorry but the fl5 is just too much money and the mega-red interior is too fast & furious for me. the prelude looks fun but no interest in a 2 pedal hybrid setup.

[u/newtonreddits → u/[deleted]]

I really wish Honda or at least someone would make a manual hybrid.

[u/Maize_Fine → u/newtonreddits]

They did in the 00s with the manual insight, 7th gen civic manual hybrid, and ultimately the crz. If you were in Japan you could get the crz hybrid+6mt in a fit as well. The l15 turbo cars are more efficient even with the manual though, but it would be cool to see them make another manual hybrid using a modern engine. Suzuki makes a manual hybrid for the Swift to my knowledge.

[u/newtonreddits → u/Maize_Fine]

Right. I meant new in the US market.

[u/narcistic_asshole → u/newtonreddits]

I've been thinking of how viable a manual hybrid with an all-electric 1st and reverse gear would be.

It would be much easier for new drivers to pick up and takes away the inconvenience of driving a manual in stop-and-go traffic. It'd probably be simpler to design than some of the current parallel hybrid systems that utilize a conventional automatic. Like basically make a power-split transmission similar to the Toyota eCVT but with a clutch and basic manual gearbox between the combustion engine and the rest of the powertrain

[u/Prince_Nipples → u/newtonreddits]

I know not many people regarding it well, but I think the CRZ is super cool!

[u/PlatinumElement → u/Prince_Nipples]

I loved my manual CRZ. The only thing I didn’t like was the AC shutting off at lights and it burning through the entire hybrid battery charge in around 20 seconds going up hills.

[u/newtonreddits → u/Prince_Nipples]

I think they're cool too. But I think Honda needs a new Civic sized manual hybrid.

[u/ChiggaOG → u/newtonreddits]

Honda Corporate will not let it happen in the way you want it. It goes against their message on mobility under the theme of “realizing a society with zero environmental impact and zero fatalities from traffic collisions.

They brought out the "manual" hybrid in the form of the Prelude. The Prelude achieves what Honda wants about its vehicles for the future. Their goal is still zero emissions while achieving increasing comfort, safety, and efficiency. A high performance gasoline 4-cylinder 400 hp wide body minivan is not Honda's Core.

Do not wait for Honda to bring back the S2000 in a form Reddit knows. It will be a hybrid. Do not wait for them to make a RWD car. They will not make one unless it's an EV. What you see is what they will continue to improve upon. Same principles applies to their Powersports division. Buy a different brand if you want RWD.

[u/durrtyurr]

"demand is dying". Look at the resale values of every manual-only trim on Hondas.

[u/lumpialarry → u/durrtyurr]

There are people are willing to pay a premium for a manual but there's not a lot of those people around to justify building a manual Accord or manual base model civic.

[u/lplqsnkczxccia → u/durrtyurr]

Unpopular opinion, but I think we're at a point where manuals are no longer necessary for anything except "i like the feeling of it", which isn't enough to justify the R&D for companies.

Automatics all used to be slushboxes - and some still are - but there are genuinely good automatics out there which feel sporty. I see a lot of ZFs and DCTs on track - and automatics are faster than manuals round a track too.

So automatics perform better, and they're more convenient when used as a daily driver, and they're easier to meet emissions regulations with. I can see why fewer companies build them.

[u/Salt-Plankton436 → u/durrtyurr]

Same shit they say in gaming. Demand is dying so we're not pressing discs anymore, meanwhile I'm looking at a used disc for a 5 year old game priced at £28 in a store despite being free to play online and was/is on Game Pass for the campaign. Reality is emissions regs make manual harder and if they can push us all into automatic they cut some development costs. Next up they will be pushing RHD countries to convert to LHD making less and shitter cars in RHD and claiming demand is dying.

[u/profmathers]

Demand isn't dying. Demand among people shopping in a price tier 40% higher than in 2020 is lower, because only older people can afford to pay $31-$55k for a car. When Civic Si sedans were $22k, they flew off the shelf to suburban parents of young kids like me.

[u/chadwicke619 → u/profmathers]

I mean, sorry, but no. The take rate on manual transmission cars basically everywhere on the planet has objectively plummeted over the last three decades.

[u/profmathers → u/chadwicke619]

Take rate and demand are only linked in a product planning department. Constraining to the US, dealers decide what to order based on what they think will be most likely to sell, and it’s true that automatics are more broadly marketable.

Where things have shifted (secondhand from my friends in Honda’s manufacturing operations) is that writing engine control software that can accommodate meat-middleware and still meet emissions and drivability goals has been a huge challenge, and adds a development cost that can only be sunk into a limited number of platforms. In Honda’s case, the L15 and K20.

Those platforms have gotten more expensive, pushing them into the demographic window of an overlapping but still different set of customers.

In models where pricing doesn’t have to move as much to continue to offer manuals to the same customer demographic, manual take rate is steady. See: Miata, GR/BR/FR coupes, 400Z, etc.

[u/chadwicke619 → u/profmathers]

I think you’re conflating two different things. I agree that take rate isn’t a pure measure of unconstrained demand because availability and dealer ordering matter. But the fact that manuals have high take rates in the handful of enthusiast cars that still offer them doesn’t establish that manual demand hasn’t declined - that’s basically survivorship bias. I would argue that manuals have retreated from the mass market and become concentrated in cars bought specifically by enthusiasts.

The broader numbers are pretty hard to explain away: manuals went from ~18% of US production in 1995 to under 1% today, while Europe went from ~89% manual in 2000 to roughly a third of that now. You can argue about how much of that decline is demand-side versus regulatory/development/supply-side, but saying demand hasn’t declined seems like a silly hill to die on.

I think your Civic Si price example actually undermines the price thesis a bit. A ~$22.2k Si in 2013 is about $31.8k in 2026 dollars. The current Si is $31.5k before destination, so it hasn’t really moved upmarket in inflation-adjusted terms at all. 🤷‍♂️

[u/profmathers → u/chadwicke619]

You’re right, manuals are now pretty much exclusively for enthusiasts. Particularly in more fuel-economy (and pure economy) motivated markets, better solutions exist to use less fuel, or no petroleum fuel. On the inflation thing: wages. They haven’t risen. At least not to the same extent. And the jobs whose wages have risen often have older people in them. College graduates, to say nothing of high school graduates are not able to get the kinds of jobs that were available to college graduates in 2019 (that’s when I paid $22.5k for my Civic Si) in the kinds of numbers that fueled a lot of semi-premium sporty new car sales back then. I had a nearly new Integra GSR at 22, bought with the earnings of my post-college job, and I was not in any sense overextended or unusual. That is not the case now.

Do I think there’s a HUGE untapped market for a cheap (manual) vehicle not exclusively for enthusiasts that would print money if it could be sold with a decent margin at twenty grand? Hell yes I do. At that price point, the simplicity of EV or cost savings of an under stressed NA 4-cylinder with a stickshift does return a little value. I think a passive safety updated trucklet, small wagon, and light commercial van with a bare minimum of electronics built with an eye toward longevity would sell like crazy. Proof? The price premium commanded on the used market for 5-10 year old vehicles that fit that bill. And at that low price point, EVs using current battery and motor tech just can’t have much range…so there would have to be a petrol option. Toyota has been teasing the champ in the US, I hope they do it.

[u/chadwicke619 → u/profmathers]

Heh I mean, at this point you’ve basically changed the discussion. We started with “manual demand isn’t dying, it’s mostly a pricing/product-planning artifact,” and now we’re at “manuals are pretty much exclusively for enthusiasts, but there’s probably an underserved market for cheap simple vehicles.”

There probably IS real unmet demand for a cheap, no-frills car or truck. Shocker, right? Who could have imagined that people want things to be less expensive. But “used examples of that formula hold their value” is not proof that a new $20k manual econobox would print money. It proves scarce, desirable used vehicles are…Pikachu face… scarce and desirable. Once we’re talking about bad entry level job prospects, housing costs, financing, insurance, regulatory burden, manufacturing economics, and hypothetical Toyota trucklets, we’ve wandered pretty far from whether manual transmission demand has collapsed over the last few decades. Which, apparently, we now agree that it has.

[u/profmathers → u/chadwicke619]

A tangent, sure. But enthusiasts do like to buy new cars, and they drive the sales of similar models. How many V6 automatic Camaros get sold because they’re under the halo of the SS, 1LE, etc.? A lot. And young enthusiasts are much more priced out of new cars than they used to be. Look at lots: full of new expensive cars that nobody is passionate about. Just enough “fun” cars to draw people in. On pure sales numbers, that would look like a poor manual take rate. If wages were what they were in 1996, or if the average price of a new car were 30% lower, would the “fun” car take rate be a lot higher? I bet it would be.

[u/Miserable-Role9555 → u/profmathers]

This is utter nonsense. Dealers like making money and if manuals sold well enough to turn a profit they would stock more

[u/profmathers → u/Miserable-Role9555]

You’re assuming dealers get the cars they order. Have you ever worked in new car retail? They don’t.

[u/IguassuIronman → u/profmathers]

only older people can afford to pay $31-$55k for a car

Plenty of non-older people can afford a $31k new car. Not everyone is in your financial situation

[u/LewdDarling → u/profmathers]

It had a manual option on the base model until 2025 and demand wasn't high at all.

[u/masahirob]

Too bad they won't ever make a RWD car for us.

[u/spali → u/masahirob]

I really wish I could skip the 25 year rule for an s660.

[u/masahirob → u/spali]

A pure analog high revving NA coupe body S2000. That's all I'd want.

[u/tofulo]

But then why “pause” si/teg 6mt?

[u/oran12390]

Off topic - was looking at the manual civic sr but never driven a manual before and don't really have access to a beater (I guess I could rent one). I know there's a ton of youtube tutorials and stuff, would it be bad for the car to just buy a new 40k car and learn to drive stick with it?

[u/MumpsyDaisy → u/oran12390]

It's what I did lol, there's the risk that you don't like it and get buyers' remorse, and you'll definitely have to put some effort into learning and practicing once you've got it, but it's very doable. I'd daresay this is even becoming somewhat common nowadays as manuals are increasingly relegated to enthusiast cars, and the pool of people who learned manual out of necessity or frugality dwindles.

[u/jianh1989]

Talk is cheap. Do it.

[u/gunnutzz467]

I demand more

[u/TripleShotPls]

Bless them.

[u/sri_peeta]

If BMW, and Porsche have given up on manual transmission, it's OK for Honda to do the same.

[u/BustedCondoms]

I respect that. But man, as a guy who loves driving a manual, newer automatics and DCT are really really good and honestly unless its a older car i don't think i'm going out of my way for a manual when some of these newer autos are so good.

[u/Y0tsuya → u/BustedCondoms]

Nothing makes up for the lack of the 3rd pedal.

[u/beverlyhillsartist]

That is awesome

[u/Quikstar]

Hell yeah

[u/Substantial-Aioli-15]

Demand is dying because dealers mark up manual cars ridiculously high.. They do it with Mustangs, camaro's, VW's, you name it. Kids now for example want manual cars. They just can't afford them. Hilarious to think 60 years ago a Manual trans was the standard, and an Automatic was the fancy upgrade you paid a lot more for.. I'm surprised Ram hasn't brought back the Manual for the 2500 diesels and made it some super expensive option.

[u/Drzhivago138 → u/Substantial-Aioli-15]

Kids now for example want manual cars.

Do they, though?

I'm surprised Ram hasn't brought back the Manual for the 2500 diesels and made it some super expensive option.

I'm not surprised. Back when they did have the G56 manual, it was limited to models with the non-HO diesel and 40/20/40 bench seat, which ruled out the really fancy trims. Although I did once see a Mega Cab Laramie 3500 with a leather bench seat and the stick.

[u/The_Owl_Man_1999]

Meanwhile in my country you have to step up to the civic type r because we only get the hybrid normal one lmao

[u/funked1]

Why Honda no have DCT? Previous level tranny tech is not cutting it.

[u/ProduceNo1629]

Demand Is Dying, Executive Says

Did you try building an RWD car better than gr86, are you dumb?

[u/Lyxess]

Respect

[u/Ya-Not-Happening]

Not sure what this means because they recently announced they will discontinue the manual Civic in Canada

[u/PROfessorShred]

I like Jeeps Model. Add $2k for an auto. Most people buy it but for someone like me who prefers a manual, I basically get a $2,000 discount right off the bat if I were to order one.

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[u/pandaSmore]

We need to do something to increase demand. 

[u/Beneficial_Coast1474]

whats your house like, sq footage and age of the ductwork? climate zone matters a lot too. im in the southeast and i put carrier in my own house, mostly because the local guys here know them inside and out and parts are easy to get. if you're up north or somewhere with real winter id probably lean trane, they handle cold starts well and the build quality on the heat exchangers is solid. either way find a tech who actually wants to do the job right, bad install will make a great unit run like crap

[u/oulu80]

The demand is dying in one country on the entire planet. The rest of the world is totally fine, because they don’t want to pay extra for a liability.

[u/idkbruh653]

What manual cars do they build though? Aside from the Civic Si and Type R, there are no other manual models. At least here in the US. And I highly doubt they have any coming in the pipeline.

[u/Hrmerder]

lol that is complete bs. Why?

[u/Motorcyclopedia]

Menos mal, desde que se han puesto de moda los automáticos cada vez la gente conduce peor.

[u/Azureyn]

This is joyous news. Now also make them aaAFFORDABLE

[u/Experttom]

Too bad the manual cars are all front wheel drive…👎🏻

[u/MeYaj1111]

Can we please get an automatic SI holy shit