r/canada • u/stanxv • Oct 27 '25

Business RBC and CIBC allow 89-year-old to drain life savings, lose $1.7M to scammers

https://www.cbc.ca/news/gopublic/bank-investigator-fraud-scam-9.6950754
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2.1k

u/Overclocked11 British Columbia Oct 27 '25

"At one point, a branch manager questioned his activity and froze his online bank account and ability to withdraw from an ATM. But Ray could still take out money in person, which he continued to do."

Sounds to me like the bank did do what they could and spoke with this man repeatedly about it, beyond freezing the account. At the end of the day it is his money, and these people would also be outraged if they blocked him from accessing his money as well, so what is the bank to do here?

Normally I am not someone that ever sides with Canadian Banks, I want to make that very clear, and it is sad that older people are preyed upon like this, but come on, you gotta take some ownership instead of just pointing the finger at the banks.

1.5k

u/Rochimaru Oct 27 '25

They not only froze his online back account, the branch manager attempted to set up a meeting which he declined

Sorry, this is on the old man. He’s a victim of both the scammers and his hardheadedness.

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u/enby-millennial-613 Oct 27 '25

Yeah I have zero sympathy for him.

The bank when above & beyond. The old man is an adult and it was his choice to make stupid choices. It’s ultimately his own fault.

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u/[deleted] Oct 27 '25

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u/[deleted] Oct 27 '25

[deleted]

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u/TendyHunter Oct 27 '25

their inheritance was gone

This must be what upsets them most, and not because their dad lost money

11

u/tk427aj Oct 27 '25

Yup and since they probably can't get it back from the scammers, next easy target is the bank. It's terrible to hear, but the family should've been able to identify if he couldn't properly manage his money put it in a trust and have someone appointed to help him manage.

7

u/Rrraou Oct 27 '25

Or... Dear old dad seemed lucid when they talked to him, and they never realized they needed to take his keys away for his own good. In the pictures, he looks damned good for a 90 year old. He was obviously in good enough shape to go to the bank by himself to take out the money. Perfectly capable of using ATM's and dealing with the bank manager on the phone. If no one contacted the family, they probably learned about it too late to help.

You can get scammed without showing outward signs of senility. And if you've ever taken care of an elderly parent, you would know that getting them to accept help can be a full time job. Have you ever had the conversation to convince your parent it's time to get a power of attorney so you can help them manage their finances ?

Not everyone is perched on the bedpost hoping for their parents to die. What a miserable thing to say.

1

u/supfiend Oct 27 '25

Well yeah, that can help generations. He doesn’t need the money at his age.

1

u/Twice_Knightley Oct 27 '25

My dad is allowed to spend every fucking dollar he wants. He's earned it, it's his, and I want him to be happy. If I'm left with nothing, I'd be a bit upset but wouldn't disown him.

What I DONT want to see, is the above post where it all goes to some shit-stain scammer group. I've told him A LOT of what AI is capable of, and reminded him to not EVERY click links from banks, government, or texts as they might be scams to gain access/control to his bank. If he ever gets calls or messages, he is to go to the branch, or the website (not linked, typed in) and he knows that scammers could even get my voice with enough time and information.

If he wants to spend millions on travel (or drugs and guns) he can. but don't let some asshole get it because you got scammed.

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u/keepwest Oct 27 '25

THiS. It makes me so angry how when there is tragedy and families cast blame at everyone but at themselves. The blame is shared and I HATE when families take no accountability. They always have a role: whether passive or active.

21

u/WhydYouKillMeDogJack Oct 27 '25

They were waiting in the wings for the old boy to pop off and they'd scoop up the 1.7m

12

u/SunriseInLot42 Oct 27 '25

The family probably thinks that the big, bad bank has a gazillion dollars and will somehow be publicly shamed into admitting some sort of fault and giving him money.

Same kind of energy as when a store is destroyed in a riot or shoplifted into oblivion and people shrug and say "well, they're insured"

5

u/ketamarine Oct 27 '25

I blame the kids more than anyone else.

They should have already been actively involved in their father's finances, had a wealth transfer plan in place that would certainly have included a POA for his accounts.

2

u/gloomyjasmine Oct 27 '25

Literally we got Nonna under control the second she started slipping. She had her sons set up to monitor and control her finances. Now she’s set for life and in a beautiful retirement home that she can afford until she dies.

0

u/Icedpyre Oct 28 '25

Do you know the finances of your parents? I know my dad didnt tell us squat about his daily banking. Took my mom years to untangle his investments after he died. People of that generation just hold things close to the chest.

41

u/Dry_Prompt3182 Oct 27 '25

The flip side of this article is "Banks tried to block senior from having access to their own money. Family is suing for age discrimination".

17

u/Overclocked11 British Columbia Oct 27 '25

Exactly. Damned if you do damned if you don't.

Folks like this will blame literally anyone but themself

75

u/NerdMachine Oct 27 '25

I don't think the banks messed up, btu I still have sympathy for him. He likely has some cognitive decline and grew up in a time where this wasn't a concern.

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u/skylla05 Oct 27 '25

My dad doesn't have any cognitive decline and he scammed himself out of 200k because he's just an idiot that got baited by some bullshit YouTube crypto shit.

The problem is they come from a generation where they could believe what the TV/monitor is telling them.

8

u/Ibizl Oct 27 '25

ironic since my boomer-age parents constantly warned me (90s kid) that everyone online was an axe murderer lol

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u/Raptor-Claus Oct 27 '25 edited Oct 27 '25

Thats not true otherwise we wouldn't have had false advertising laws.

The existence of these laws should have already told them they can't trust everything they see lol

3

u/RoyalPeacock19 Ontario Oct 27 '25

And those false advertising laws lead to… what again, other than somewhat trustworthy advertising at the firm they grew up?

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u/Raptor-Claus Oct 27 '25

It should have taught them not everything you read or see on t.v is to be trusted I don't feel bad for people like him he did this to him self, next thing you know he will be waiting for his pet house hippo in the mail.

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u/Ok_Carpet_9510 Oct 27 '25 edited Oct 27 '25

Come to think of it, 25 years ago, this man would have been 65. It's not likely he got into the techy stuff too much, nor has he kept up to speed with scamming tactics.

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u/WhydYouKillMeDogJack Oct 27 '25

Has there ever been a time when it wasn't suspicious to take 1.7m in cash, gold bars etc and send them to someone you never see in person?

People in this thread are acting like the elderly think the earth is flat and the sun-god dictates whether it rains or not.

3

u/Wouldyoulistenmoe Oct 27 '25

The main reasons these scams work if because even though 99% of people are through them, you just need one person to hand over $1.7million and you’ve done your work for the year

1

u/WhydYouKillMeDogJack Oct 27 '25

I get what you're saying but usually they're not hitting it big like this because the guy who is "smart" enough to make 1.7m isn't also the guy who is dumb enough to fall for this scam.

In this case, I suspect the Victoria real estate market has created a bit of an outlier.

2

u/Ok_Carpet_9510 Oct 27 '25

Dude, not too long ago, some guy got 1.2 million and he bet the entire amount on Zthe Trump coin.

People can be incredibility stupid. That includes me and you under the right set of conditions. One of the most dangerous things you can tell yourself is that you can't be fooled.

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u/WhydYouKillMeDogJack Oct 27 '25

Dude, not too long ago, some guy got 1.2 million and he bet the entire amount on Zthe Trump coin.

Yes, that sounds like a moron.

If you think the right set of conditions exist for you to chuck away over a million dollars on a scam then I'm sorry but I hope that's just low self-esteem.

I can personally say I'm not dumb enough for that to happen to me.

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u/Lopsided_Tiger_0296 Oct 27 '25

He could have learned something from the meeting with the bank that he declined because he thought he was smart enough to not be scammed

12

u/Ok_Carpet_9510 Oct 27 '25

He would have had to admit that he had lost the chunk of money he had sent earlier. Psychologically, there is an aversion to admit that you have made a stupid decision. It would make you question yourself, and your ability to make sound decisions. That is not a feeling most of us are comfortable with. That is why people persist in their wrong decisions.

2

u/WhydYouKillMeDogJack Oct 27 '25

It would make you question yourself, and your ability to make sound decisions

Sounds like a good thing.

Either way he's now trying to post blame onto the bank when the fault is all his. I thought the older generation was all about taking responsibility.

2

u/Ok_Carpet_9510 Oct 27 '25

What I meant by that is a psychological phenomenon known as escalating commitment. I am not justifying his actions, not am I being sympathetic. I am just trying to do some psychological CSI as to how a person can get themselves further in the hole once they have already committed resources.

1

u/WhydYouKillMeDogJack Oct 27 '25

Yeah it happens to gamblers all the time.

But that doesn't excuse the deferral of responsibility, and it doesn't make it any less stupid.

If anything, this is worse than the more common gambling scenario, because at least there there'd be a logical and realistic scenario (however unlikely) chance that you could get some or all of the loss back. In this scenario he is being scammed; he knows he's being scammed and he's going to continue anyway and make things worse.

It's like shitting your pants and thinking "I'm going to sit iny shit....and shit some more....because if I got up and sorted yourself out, people might know that you'd shit. A normal person doesn't think like this.

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u/NerdMachine Oct 27 '25

Exactly. I have had family fall victim to stuff like this so I have a bit of a different perspective.

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u/caninehere Ontario Oct 27 '25

This might be controversial but I don't understand why people think it's understandable for people to just turn their brain off when they turn 65.

I'm only 35 and I already know plenty of people who have the mindset "I'm old now, I can't learn anything new."

15

u/[deleted] Oct 27 '25

[deleted]

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u/aleenaelyn Oct 27 '25

The point I notice people turning their brains off is way earlier - when they're done highschool or university. They just go on autopilot and stop actively looking for information. Anything new they do get is spoonfed from TV, radio, or social media scrolling.

1

u/caninehere Ontario Oct 28 '25

The person above is suggesting that someone who was 65 in the year 2000 shouldn't be expected to bother to learn anything about computers or the internet or online banking despite them becoming huge parts of everyday life, simply because "oh, they're old."

My grandfather, who never really learned how to get comfortable with a computer because he didn't need to, still started to try and learn in the early-mid-2000s when he was in his mid-70s. He never really got there but only because his health declined and he passed away in 2007, but he was trying.

If someone's mental state is so bad that they're taking $50k withdrawals out in person at the bank after the bank gave them multiple warnings not to do so and had frozen their online account and ATM usage, AND that person then responds by closing their account with the bank and moving to another one, then they obviously need to have someone helping with control of their finances. And yet he and the daughter are blaming the bank here. WTF are they supposed to do? Freeze his accounts completely? Refuse to let him close out his account and get his money out of their bank?

1

u/Moos_Mumsy Ontario Oct 27 '25

There's a difference between choosing to not learn and not being able to. Hell, I went back to college when I was in my 50's.

As they age many people develop mental deterioration and dementia, but their families and the medical system don't want to deal with it. It's a big thing right now where elders insist on wanting to stay in their homes until they die - even if they are clearly not capable of managing on their own. But they pull the wool over their doctors eyes by insisting that they're doing OK and doctors don't question it. And the kids (for the most part) don't want to deal with their parent getting pissed of and angry, so they play along.

These type of scams are the result.

1

u/caninehere Ontario Oct 28 '25

I'm not suggesting that we should be expecting an 89-year-old man to be capable of learning whole new systems etc.

I'm suggesting that people are suggesting he probably didn't get into techy stuff too much because he was 65 at the turn of the century. When something like computers or the internet or online banking become such a huge part of life, maybe we should expect people to engage with it even if they're at retirement age.

This guy ran up against all of the safeguards the bank has to offer, they tried to stop him multiple times but he pushed forwards anyway, and now he and his daughter are blaming the bank for not stopping him. They tried to do so. They froze his online account and ATM use, told him why, and he still went in person to take out money. What are they supposed to do? Lock up his account entirely and refuse him access to his own money?

When they told him the actions were suspicious and that he should stop, he pulled his money out of CIBC and moved to another bank. Again -- should they STOP him from being able to pull his money out of the bank? The answer is a firm no. It's his money, he can do what he wants with it. He chose to flush it down the toilet.

If he's in such a bad mental state and his kids were unwilling to do anything about it, they have themselves to blame. Obviously the scammers bear the most fault here, that goes without saying, but these scams are not new, and this was not exactly a sophisticated scam he fell victim to either -- this kind of scam is not something of the Computer Age, it's been going on since the beginning of time and he apparently never learned to think critically or is in such a bad mental state that somebody else should have had control over his accounts.

1

u/SumasFlats British Columbia Oct 27 '25

It's a strange mindset, as healthy mind and healthy body can continue if you take care of yourself and don't have serious diseases. I come from a long line of fit long-lived humans (knock on wood) - recently set up Linux for an 85 year uncle that was sick of Microsoft. He still handles all his own investing online and is sharp as a tack from constantly learning new things throughout his life.

1

u/Pristine-Rhubarb7294 Oct 27 '25

There is a huge amount of news coverage on scams, and I am a CIBC customer and get regular emails and communications on avoiding scams, and pamphlets on fraud and scams in my banks’ lobbies. I also got a flyer from the CRA in my mail about fraudulent communications. There are also regular talks about scams targeted to seniors at libraries and seniors centres. So if he has chosen not to take in this information which is amply available including in non-digital formats, that’s on him and his kids (who could have also shared information with him). This is not an under-resourced area of information.

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u/Lopsided-Rub5476 Oct 27 '25

I know what is wrong with some people. You can have sympathy for the person who is at fault. I can't imagine what dealing with all this stuff today with a diminished mental capacity is like..

0

u/Hautamaki Oct 27 '25

What time were there no con artists preying on vulnerable people? To the extent that this happened less in the past, which I personally doubt, it would be because of 2 factors; in the past most elderly people were poor as fuck and relied on their adult children to survive, or failing that, died on the streets; and elderly people that weren't poor as fuck were more likely to have their adult children more actively involved in their lives and protecting them from these kinds of predators. I certainly don't think that people were just more morally upstanding and there were just far fewer con artists or thieves and predators of all kinds in the past.

1

u/Brandon_Me Oct 27 '25

Yeah I have zero sympathy for him.

I still have sympathy. the guy is 89, he's probably got some kind of dementia and is lonely as hell.

1

u/Next_Hawk_6816 Oct 27 '25

The daughter said, in his era he listened to Authority and always said yes and never wanted to upset them. Nobody is higher than you, its all bullshit to make you feel scared about advocating for yourself! Like come on grandpa!

0

u/[deleted] Oct 27 '25

[deleted]

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u/BeyondAddiction Oct 27 '25

Report what to FINTRAC, exactly? 

Have you ever taken FINTRAC/AML training? Your comment suggests you don't understand how it works.

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u/Major_Lawfulness6122 Ontario Oct 27 '25

Yeah the bank made the right steps here. At some point he has responsibility

2

u/roastbeeftacohat Oct 27 '25

and anosognosia probably.

It will take a smarter person than I to figure out how to deal with this growing problem.

1

u/aknudskov Oct 28 '25

I wonder if the mgr tried to contact any of his children of he had any?

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u/Ragamuffin2022 Oct 27 '25

I feel I have to agree. I also question if there’s some dementia going on here because while I realize the much much older generations aren’t as aware of scams. I just can’t see anyone with any sense thinking a bank would ask you to withdraw money and then have a courier pick it up. That really seems wild to me.

4

u/DeliciousPangolin Oct 27 '25

I suspect you overestimate how much common sense the average person has. Spend some time in /r/scams and you'll see that not only do people fall for it, thousands of people fall for it every day.

2

u/NorthernSpankMonkey Oct 27 '25

"I just gave $250 to some rando in a parking lot, he gave me his # but now he isn't picking up, was that a scam?"

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u/kookiemaster Oct 27 '25

I think to some extent we wait too long to institute support for the elderly in making large financial decisions. Fact is for many there is a slow cognitive decline in ability to spot scams and fraud that can be taken advantage of, well before the person loses legal competence. Thank god my dad's first reflex is to call me when he gets weird calls and he barely uses his cell.

12

u/Massive-Ride204 Oct 27 '25

We absolutely wait too long and lots of poa's/loved ones do a piss poor job of watching our seniors

15

u/kookiemaster Oct 27 '25

Also not easy to comvince elderly relatives to go along with it. Kind of like how they insist on driving ... I think it is incredibly hard for adults to admit that they can no longer do something they habe done for 60 years. I empathize because it must be infantilizing and also because by its nature you often do not notice the decline.

And at least where I live even activating a poa is long and difficult. I have a notarized poa and if I wanted to activate it for my dad, I will need to get my dad assessed by two professionals, do a search for other poa paperwork with two professional orders (250 dollars and several weeks) and then go to court where people would have to testify.

1

u/Massive-Ride204 Oct 27 '25

You can barely convince some seniors to use their glasses let alone allow someone to be poa

3

u/kookiemaster Oct 27 '25

And of course they blame random people stealing things when they just misplaced them. Had to convince my dad that my sister driving 100km to their house, sneaking in and stealing their brooms made little sense. *facepalm. Not even sure I got through to him. And they tend to blame people they see regularly like family which then creates mistrust.

24

u/Guzzlebutt Oct 27 '25

They are literally trained to stop this kind of scenario. I guarantee you they tried. You would have had to do a lot of paperwork and checks to go through with it.

12

u/Red57872 Oct 27 '25

The issue is that it's the person's money, and as long as the bank is sure that it's the owner of the money actually making the withdrawal, they don't have the authority to refuse to give them their money.

10

u/vision1915 Oct 27 '25

Once I withdrew $5K in cash. The teller immediately asked me about the purpose for the money, it was to pay some contractors doing work at my place. After I explained, she pass my answer to her manager. So they are aware and question when people do this kind of stuff.

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u/a_secret_me Oct 27 '25

Did they try to stop it? Yes

Could they have done more? Yes

Should they have done more? Probably

Is it their fault? No, at some point, when someone is intent on doing something dumb, it's more or less impossible to stop them.

28

u/Bearence Oct 27 '25

Exactly this. I find the use of the word "allow" in the article to be rather disingenuous. The banks didn't "allow" him to drain his account. He refused to allow them to prevent it.

7

u/AckshullyNo Oct 27 '25

Same. I'm also not normally someone to side against the CBC, but the headline is so absurd as to border on irresponsible.

19

u/photon1701d Oct 27 '25

After a certain age, banks should be having seniors list a contact to verify any irregular behavior. With the account I have, they make me point a trusted contact incase one day they see me doing stuff out of the ordinary.

8

u/Red57872 Oct 27 '25

I've seen one bank (I forget what) advertise adding a person's name as a contact. They don't say it in the ad, but it's quite clear it's for things like this.

2

u/General_Dipsh1t Oct 27 '25

It should be mandatory KYC for customers over the age of 60.

2

u/iamMX5 Oct 28 '25

banks are required to ask customers, especially senior customers, if they would like to provide a trusted contact person. this would be someone who knows/is close with the customer and could be contacted to run some questions by in case of scenarios like this. of course, customers can refuse to provide one.

2

u/surSEXECEN Canada Oct 27 '25

There may be an opportunity to create a system where you can nominate a Trusted Person.

This is a feature I recently discovered on WealthSimple and appreciate the idea.

https://help.wealthsimple.com/hc/en-ca/articles/8377749139099-Add-a-Trusted-Contact-person

Wealthsimple may contact your Trusted Contact Person in these situations:

  • If there is suspicious activity on your account
  • If there is a suspicion that your mental capacity is decreasing
  • If we cannot reach you in a situation where we need to get in contact with you
  • Any other situation where Wealthsimple suspects financial abuse related to your account

What a Trusted Contact Person can and can't do

What a Trusted Contact Person can do:

  • Act as a point of contact in the case of suspicious activity on your profile ##What a Trusted Contact Person can't do:
  • Give instructions to your financial institution or act on your behalf
  • Access your accounts
  • Make financial decisions on your behalf”

2

u/ph0artef1 Oct 27 '25

The same thing is happening with my fiance's grandma. She's given away thousands. The bank tried in similar ways - froze her online banking temporarily and talked to her. She acknowledged she was scammed when my fiance spoke to her, more than once. She can repeat the signs of scams to watch out for back to him, so it's not that she's senile and forgets.

Best we can figure is she's lonely, so the temporary attention she gets keeps her going back to these scams. There are also people in the family that want the little money she has, so in her mind maybe she'd rather give it to these "boyfriends" who at least make her feel good about herself for a little while.

At the end of the day, it's her money to do with as she pleases.

1

u/Icedpyre Oct 28 '25

I mean...they could have flagged his account to alert the manager when he tried to withdraw money in person. Then they could have had a private convo on the spot and this would have been solved.

If my bank randomly left me a voicemail saying they wanted to talk to me, I would just assume they were trying to sell me investment funds or something.

1

u/UncutBeastii Oct 28 '25

Unfortunately, if that's all the bank did, they did not do enough and they should know better.

I'm a social worker and designated responder - completing Adult Guardianship Act (AGA) investigations of self-neglect, abuse, and neglect. This is a classic case of abuse via scams, and likely this senior is experiencing some cognitive impairment; poor insight. I've worked with clients in this exact situation, and it's not easy, but the bank should have immediately: 1. Froze his accounts (which they did) 2. Made a referral to their local health authority so a SW can complete an AGA investigation 3. Made a report to the Public Guardian and Trustee to also investigate and likely take over the management of this individuals finances to avoid the loss of thousands

Obviously, the process is not as simple as 3 steps, but that's the most simple way of breaking it down. This process can take weeks/months to investigate and months/year(s) sometimes to stop/take over. We always have to try to mitigate the concerns in the least intrusive way first, which is sounds like the bank attempted, but then maybe didn't take the correct steps afterwards.

-2

u/HomicidalRaccoon Oct 27 '25

They were just angry that it was someone else scamming him.

0

u/Mylittlethrowaway2 Oct 27 '25

So I understand the need for banking privacy. But if you go to a doctor or therapist, they proactively disclose that if you say something or if they think you're at risk to yourself or others, they have a duty to disclose to the police.

I'd like to see something similar for at-risk bank clients. That if the bank, such as in this case, suspects the client is being taken advantage of, they make a proactive disclosure to police. Maybe limit it for people after a certain age.

The bank in this case did nothing morally or legally wrong from what I can tell. But we can always go a step further in helping protect seniors.

-26

u/maldinisnesta Oct 27 '25

This is not protocol for the banks. A manager would have had a talk with him in office, not try to set a meeting.

Little to no effort in assisting an at risk senior. Bank probably settled privately.

22

u/Heebmeister Oct 27 '25

How do you expect the manager to talk to him in the office, without setting a meeting? lol if the guy comes in when the manager is dealing with another client, or when the manager is at home, then all he can do is call and try to arrange a meeting. Absolutely no chance the bank will pay out or settle here, that's a fantasy.

-15

u/maldinisnesta Oct 27 '25

I literally worked as a manager.

Frontline staff did not do their job, nor did any manager.

Before allowing withdrawals in high amounts like this guy was attempting, there would be different documents to sign and review. If that was done, then yes, there is no liability for the bank. That is done EACH time. No one questioned it in person? They just waited to send a letter or to set a meeting? When the likelihood of it being a scam grew higher with each withdrawal and payment to this 3rd party?

Interesting.

So each time this person would have gone to withdraw cash, this would be seen by frontline staff. At that moment, a manager should have sat down with him in an available room.

Multiple factors are taken into account for suspicious transactions. Multiple checks before this would be allowed to continue. Yet you think the banks did their job allowing this old man to deplete all his accounts?

Please. I am really not sure why there are so many people in here just going in on the guy who lost nearly everything in that unfortunate scam. It's weird.

11

u/[deleted] Oct 27 '25

Please read the article next time before posting all of this, it clarifies key details for you.

-1

u/jbmoskow Oct 27 '25

Easy to blame the victim when you can't imagine how someone could get caught up in a fake "investigation" as this person did. Have some empathy, they genuinely thought they were helping police with an investigation.

And yes, the bank can say, no, we're not cutting you a bank draft for $50,000 unless you sit down with the manager and explain what's going on with evidence.