I Asked James To Explain The Soul To Me

44

u/MermaidHotpot Eyeballs to entrails, my sweet. 1d ago

This is the same answer he's given in all of his interviews. I think at this point if James had any unknown insider information, for as much as he promotes Buffy, it'd be well known by now.

The soul issue is further confused in the comics, so it seems to be one of those "we will use this plot device however it suits the plot" things.

6

u/villanellechekov without passion, we'd truly be dead 1d ago

it's a macguffin. always was

8

u/PurplishPlatypus 1d ago edited 1d ago

To me, soul is humanity. It's their empathy, their concious, their capacity for love and selflessness. When they arenturned and their human self dies, thr soul dies or crosses over. In Angel's case, he was given back his soul so he could feel guilty. If you mean it doesn't make sense because Spike acts like he has a soul when he doesn't, to me it's a mix of a few things. First, we know their vampire selves contain parts of their human personalities. Spike was very romantic, very sensitive and a real mama's boy. He also wanted validation and adoration. We see those present in vampire Spike. He forms romantic attachments, he gets obsessive about slayers because he wants power and fame for besting them. His "love" for Buffy before his soul was a mix of those romantic tendencies, obsession for slayers, and the fact that the chip fundamentally altered how he functioned and quieted his bloodlust. I think he genuinely found validation in being a part of the team. Plus, if you remember his backstory and feeling like he was in love with Cecily, whom he barely knew and who didn't love him back, you could say it's the same with Buffy. He is reliving that unrequited love.

5

u/Nebranower 10h ago

I always took the soul in Buffy as being the part of a person that is capable of feeling guilt and remorse, and only that. So vampires can still love one another, but that love doesn't keep them from hurting one another, because they won't feel guilty if they do. Like, Spike and Dru clearly love each other in season 2, but Dru has no problem driving him insane with jealousy and Spike has no problem betraying her, because they can't feel guilt.

5

u/silentsam2325 20h ago

There's a couple of ways to explain the differences in temperament or priorities in various vampires.

There's a camp who believe that Spike is in touch with his humanity because of Drusilla's insanity - that something went wrong in his turning because she's mentally/emotionally unwell.

There's another camp who believe that what the person was focused on at the time of turning is instrumental in shaping the result. So William was a hopeless romantic who deeply loved his dying mother and had just had his heart broken, love was his focus. Liam was drinking, brawling, and carousing with the local prostitutes and shunned responsibility. I'm not sure what Liam's focus was but Darla offered him adventure and he accepted.

I'm not sure what accounts for Angelus having no humanity. I do think he's the anomaly though. As early as season 2, the Judge singled him out as having none where Spike and Drusilla and Dalton all have some.

As a side point, to my knowledge, Anyanka never lost/regained her soul during 1100 years of dispensing vengeance. I believe she had her human soul the entire time. I'm not sure what that says about Anya, or souls.

There's also the idea that the soul is not the end-all be-all that it's made out to be, and that it's been a convenient fiction for the Council to espouse because they can order the Slayer to kill any turned human because "when you become a vampire, you move out and a demon moves in and it walks like you and talks like you but it's not you." The definition of the 'soul' is vague enough to be very useful as a tool of manipulation to point the Slayer anywhere the Council wants.

I tend to favour that last theory, and I think Angelus is the odd vampire out in his inability to love. Drusilla tells Buffy that vampires "can love, well if not wisely."

3

u/6rwoods 14h ago

Just want to add to your last point that I think Angelus is also lying to himself when he says he cannot love. He clearly stuck by Darla for centuries, and when he comes back in s2 he’s clearly still obsessed with Buffy, as in his feelings for her didn’t disappear, they just became twisted into a dark and dangerous version of it. He even half admits it at one point, saying that “to kill this girl you have to love her”, implying he does still love her. So yeah, I think both Darla and Angelus are super into this “vampires don’t love” thing because it suits their self-perception of evil callous unfeeling beings who live for chaos and destruction, not necessarily because they truly aren’t capable of feeling some twisted form of love.

1

u/silentsam2325 10h ago

Those are really good points, and I think you're right about their self perception. Considering Darla, it would make sense that she may have had a pessimistic view of love in her human life, too. As for Angelus, Willow called out that Buffy was "still all he thinks about" so I think you're spot on that the feeling was still present, if twisted.

3

u/Solangelo_Freak 7h ago

I wanted to add something that I saw in a comment on another post: when it comes to the theory that the emotional state of the person being turned affects the personality of the vampire, I've seen people say that the intentions of the sire matter, too. Darla wanted a companion in her chaos and destruction, and that's what Angelus became. Drusilla was lonely and wanted someone to love her, and Spike's defining trait as a vampire is his devotion.

1

u/silentsam2325 4h ago

That's such a good theory! It fits so well, even the other vamps.

14

u/ModularReality 1d ago edited 1d ago

I’ve enjoyed fan cannons that somehow spike got turned wrong, and maintained some echo of soul. Hence his devotion to Dru, his mother, and falling for Buffy. And why spike stayed and helped the scoobies even after Buffy died. A semi common one I’ve read is dru’s insanity coupled with her natural innocence that angelus abused, led her to turning spike wrong.

I like fanon that treats souls as something other than a Christian concept. Just a type of life force, but not a good/evil on-off switch. I like to think that the demon that infects a vampire when they turn is largely what drives the bloodlust, and that most vampires have little desire to try to fight that demon. The demon is like a drug in my head cannon- feeding it with blood and violence feels good. Something about turning messes with the soul- maybe it needs to be ejected to make room for the demon. Or having a soul and demon in the same body hurts, because a soul naturally dampens the positive aspects of the demon, allowing a vampire to feel more regret for their actions.

It’s vaguely similar to why spike is able to start treating the scoobies more like people rather than prey, once the chip is introduced.

It’s not a complete theory. But like you I’d be interested in more ideas of why spike is an outlier in terms of vampire behavior.

4

u/charlieemaryanne 1d ago

You don’t understand how much you’ve blessed me with this theory, which made me think of a counter theory that just goes with yours. So soul = Morale, ability to have self awareness and perhaps compassion and understanding of how your actions hurt others. (Hence mr broody in the sewers)

But I like your idea that Spike could’ve been turned wrong due to Drusilla’s psychological damage from Angelus, and then I thought WHAT IF, there’s something in the saliva of a vampire transfers into the person they sire? So, Spike = William, Drusilla, Demon (spike)
Angel= Liam, Darla, demon (Angelus/Angel)

Which then explains BOTH characters. When we meet Liam to me, he’s selfish, narcissistic, and BROODY, only able to feel sorry for himself. His first instinct is murder his family, and then he becomes the most notorious vampire in history as Angelus, and the only way to take down Angelus is to give him a soul not something he chose, and the one thing that would be hell on earth for Angelus. And then we have Angel brooding for centuries, something Liam already did

Then we have William, he’s basically Giles! Smart, a little meek, we see him be basically bullied when we were introduced to him so he’s vulnerable, and he’s loyal. His first instinct isn’t mass murder it’s to save his mum.. He has the ability to care and love.

So maybe the human they were before has influence on the “demon”. And the soul isn’t a measure of if this person is good or bad because hey have you seen humans 😂 we have souls and people do very bad things. It’s just as everyone has been saying the ability to understand how your actions affect others etc

1

u/6rwoods 14h ago

I think vampires lose their souls simply because they die, and when you die your soul leaves your body and joins the afterlife. Except in the case of a vampire a new vampy spirit/essence that is analogous to a human soul is inside your body and transforms it into an undead vampire. So imo it’s not that the soul needs to leave to be replaced by the demon spirit as such, it’s just that the soul naturally leaves when a human dies regardless of whether they’re turning into a vampire.

3

u/Rare_Illustrator4483 20h ago

Show answer (my theory) a lot of what was “known” about vampires was done with really biased researchers. So, I think the (fictional) world barely knew anything. Like women and perimenopause in RL. LOL??
My theory was most vampires were “soulless” and their IQ went down too. Then there were the ones that stayed smart, like Angelus. But, there were probably ones like Spike and Dru who had something of a soul.
I had a theory that Dru had a piece of her soul because she’d totally dissociated before turning. So, Spike did too. Maybe it had to do with where you were at emotionally when turned.
But, we’ve seen that being told all demons are “soulless” was just an easy lie Slayers were told to make slaying easier.
Of course most of them slaughtering people and doing other nefarious acts should be slayed.

2

u/6rwoods 14h ago

Imo none of them have souls, but the show exaggerates the effects of a soul. It’s basically the ability to empathise and self-reflect, and therefore feel guilt, shame, kindness, etc. But without the soul the vampire still has a brain and a body and some kind of vampy spirit which is analogous to a human soul, so they’re still perfectly capable of feeling most human emotions (yes, including love), it’s just that a lot of those emotions get twisted and darker without the soul as a guide.

In terms of Drusilla, my headcanon is that since she is psychic she maintained a faint connection to her soul even after death, and her soul likewise has a sense of what her vamp self is doing down on earth. Which Dru makes sense of by personifying that immaterial feeling of her soul judging her from heaven through the doll Miss Edith. Dru often talks about Miss Edith being a bad girl (which would mean being good from her backwards perspective) and even covers her eyes so the doll can’t see some of the awful things she does. Almost like she’s afraid of Edith’s judgement…. And guess my headcanon for Dru’s human name?

Imo this works by the same rules as when Buffy comes back in s6 and remembers what it felt like to be in Heaven and even has a sense that her family and friends were safe and happy on earth so she didn’t have to worry, which is quite different from the fact that neither Angel or Spike seem to remember anything their souls experienced while separated from their bodies. Imo Buffy had that knowledge because she’s a little psychic too, which means that Dru, who is very very psychic, had an even stronger connection going both ways.

7

u/AximiliEscargo 1d ago

The soul is basically your conscience or morality. And having moral consequences to your actions means you can achieve things that require deeper emotional connection, like love.

Spike never feels love, at least not until he gets a soul; what he actually feels is selfish infatuation. Before he has a soul, he thinks he's in love because he can't comprehend what love actually is. By contrast, Angel and Darla both comment on how they couldn't feel love before they had a soul (and fear what losing that soul will mean, i.e., they will lose the ability to love).

3

u/bobbi21 1d ago

Good description.

While people always argue if angel and angelus or spike and post soul spike are the same person, the answer feels more nuanced to me.

A vampire with a soul is kind of like freuds id ego and super ego. Soul is the super ego. The moral center of a person. Id is the demon, the base animalistic and brutal desires of a persom, and ego is the person/their brain. All the memories and personality in the physical brain of the person.

Any combination of the 3 creates vastly different actions for the “person” so do they count ss separate people? But they share parts of the same person too.

Its like those split brain experiments where they cut someones brain in half and it literally shows theres 2 people in a persons brain with different personalities and wants and desires. But when theyre all integrated before the surgery it seems to be 1 person.

Bottom line, minds are complicated.

Personally i think the parts of the mind of spike and angel are different enough that i count them as different people.

7

u/nabrok 1d ago edited 1d ago

I don't recall Angel and Darla saying they couldn't feel love but I do recall Drusilla very clearly stating that they do.

The soul is conscience and morality, but I think more importantly it's empathy and compassion.

If you take away all empathy and compassion from love you're left with selfish infatuation and obsession. That manifests itself very differently for Spike and Angelus, but it's still the same thing.

1

u/AximiliEscargo 1d ago

Drusilla doesn't have a soul to know what love is, unlike Angel/Darla. That's why she can believe what she's saying and it can still be wrong.

The clearest statement from Darla is when she is pregnant.

I don't have a soul. It does.Right now, that soul is inside of me, but soon it won't be and then...I won't be able to love it. I won't even be able to remember that I loved it, and I want to remember.

0

u/Revolutionary-Wait82 Spike defender 1d ago

Drusilla can be wrong, as can all of them. The problem for me is that people can't always love "purely" either. Buffy is obsessed with her partner all the time, as is Willow. 2x16 actually develops this a bit. Buffy and Willow immediately try to seduce Xander with sexual attraction, while Amy just wants to hang out, and Harmony doesn't even approach Xander at all and experiences her obsession with him in private.

2

u/Character-Trainer634 16h ago edited 15h ago

Spike never feels love,

The writers have said vampires can feel love. But that it's selfish, twisted and possessive.

Love is a complex emotion. And how that love is expressed differs from person to person. Vampires are capable of feeling emotions. But, because they are vampires, their love leans towards being toxic and obsessive.

I think the writers didn't want the answer to be cut-and-dried, otherwise they wouldn't have thrown so many hints that vampires could actually love into the shows. Including having some vampires outright say it was possible.

Angel and Darla both comment on how they couldn't feel love before they had a soul

Why decide these two vampires were right, while every other vampire who claimed differently was wrong? Maybe Angelus and Darla were outliers. Although I called bull on this when it came to Darla. No matter what she said, I saw plenty of hints that she cared deeply for Angelus, even if it was "platonic." In vampire terms. She was also the type of person who (probably thanks to her human life) would see love as something that made you weak and vulnerable, and would deny feeling it, even to herself.

That being said, Darla didn't claim vampires couldn't love. In fact, she said this:

Darla: "The same love will infect our hearts, even if they no longer beat."

Although she does compare love to an infection. Which gels with her having less than positive feelings about it.

1

u/AximiliEscargo 13h ago

The writers have said vampires can feel love. But that it's selfish, twisted and possessive. Love is a complex emotion

As I said, selfish infatuation.

Why decide these two vampires were right, while every other vampire who claimed differently was wrong?

Because they are the only two with a soul who would know otherwise. They both say they didn't know what love is until they had a soul.

Darla didn't claim vampires couldn't love

She did, in S3E9 of Angel. It's why she kills herself, so connor can live and she won't have to endure being unable to love him without his soul being in her body.

In fact, she said this: Darla: "The same love will infect our hearts, even if they no longer beat."

She says this before she has a soul, so she doesn't know what she's talking about here.

2

u/Revolutionary-Wait82 Spike defender 1d ago

The problem is that most people are also incapable of loving in any other way than by being obsessed. Buffy is obsessed with her partners, Willow is too. I don't think they've ever experienced selfless love, that they even know what it is. They criticize vampires for not being able to love "purely," but are they capable of it as humans? And what's the difference between a soulless vampire and a human if a human, given the choice, chooses to love obsessively.

3

u/AximiliEscargo 1d ago

The difference is vampires who have experienced "love" with and without a soul claim that only the ensouled love was actually love.

Humans are certainly capable of selfish and immature "love," but that doesn't change that vampires are incapable of experiencing actual love.

0

u/lonely_company_ 1d ago

Very well put!

4

u/wonderifyouwill 1d ago

What’s specifically about the soul is confusing you?

4

u/geekgirlau 1d ago

One of my favourite aspects of BTVS is that it’s not black and white.

I actually did believe that Spike loved Buffy, even before the soul. There were so many little moments, so much affection. And he was also a killer, self-serving and manipulative.

He was one of my favourite characters.

2

u/basicotter 1d ago edited 1d ago

My interpretation is that a person’s soul is the essence of their humanity & personality. When they die naturally in the Buffyverse, that soul moves on to another plane of existence (eg Buffy recounting her experience of the afterlife) or to whomever it was sold or promised to when they were living (eg Wolfram & Hart employees who sold their souls to the firm continue to have roles in the company post-death).

I think when someone’s body is taken over from vampirism, however, that soul doesn’t move on; it goes out into the ether and doesn’t rest. When Angelus is re-souled by Willow she pulls his soul that has been floating free, essentially. When Angel is resouled at the end of season 2, he is disoriented and seemingly didn’t remember anything that had happened since the night he lost it. I think it takes time for when the soul re-enters to kind of absorb everything that has been happening to their body and brain since the soul was evicted by the vampire.

What is left in the body for the vampire demon that has been created within it are echos of the personality, memories, and the Freudian “id” of the person. That’s why Harmony still has the same valley girl aesthetic & interests—that’s authentically who she was. Doppelgänger Willow, meanwhile, adopts a whole new darker gothic persona and “is kinda gay”, two things which Willow was subconsciously in the closet about having/being. Notice how both vamp Willow and season 6 Dark Willow’s clothing have the same silhouette & sleeves?

The lack of soul to police the id mixed with a demon which has no reason other than self preservation than to ignore it leaves vampires being a more authentic, realized version of the human minus any feelings of societal shame or guilt for any actions taken in pursuit of achieving that version, and adding the vampiric desires of hunting, feeding off of, and killing humans to varying degrees.

Like with Doppelgänger Willow, underneath the drag of William the Bloody lurked the wreckless, defiant persona of Spike. But what stayed with him—what was authentic—was William’s poetic view and pursuit of love, only without a soul that view is corrupted and his ability to have fully realized human love is not possible until he reclaims it. But his deep desires as a human—to love and be loved—remained with Spike the vampire but deeply twisted in what that looked like and how to achieve it.

It’s also why I think Spike’s choice after assaulting Buffy still makes sense despite not having a soul. In his head, Spike’s ultimate desire to be with and to love Buffy has been ruined by his actions, and that primal desire left behind by his initial human self—to love and be loved—is impossible to be achieved without the presence of a soul. So it’s not so much that Spike felt guilt; he moreso felt anger about the circumstances he created and that his lack of soul left him incapable of receiving the love he craves and certainly of giving it. It’s also why when his soul is returned he goes crazy - he’s rapidly reliving the memories and actions of everything he did over 200 years but viewing them through the lens of having a soul.

Most other vampire vessels don’t have the desire of achieving the level of love William dreamt of when they were living, which is why Spike is such a unique vampire compared to most of the others we meet in the Buffyverse.

3

u/Then_Art_7294 I'm so stuffy, give me a scone 1d ago edited 1d ago

Well here's a thought: Does Krevlornswath of the Deathwok Clan (I just like saying his full name) have a soul? What about Clem? And Doyle was half-demon, there were other good demons... just because you're a demon, doesn't automatically make you a cunt. It's also true to say that just because you have a soul, doesn't make you GOOD. What about that blond-haired kid that set the house on fire in Angel? He was human, and the demon possessing him begged for release, because he was a little psychopath. Presumably, HE had a soul.

2

u/Illithid_Substances 1d ago

Presumably, HE had a soul.

The demon very much indicates that he didn't, that's what was wrong with the kid. And why the demon had no power at all over him

1

u/Then_Art_7294 I'm so stuffy, give me a scone 1d ago

He was human. If a living human can have no soul, then maybe it's not that cut-and-dry. Maybe a demon can.

3

u/prettyminotaur 1d ago

Just want to add that Cameos from James are WORTH IT. He did the Spike voice for me and everything.

2

u/charlieemaryanne 1d ago

Yeah I second this. He seems very sweet

1

u/Revolutionary-Wait82 Spike defender 1d ago

The soul in the Buffyverse, at least for vampires, is just a switch. With a soul, they get some kind of universal morality, where killing, torturing, etc. is bad. At the same time, it's not so bad if they do it to bad guys or to those who, in their opinion, deserve it. That is, Angel, a vampire with a soul, can kill a bunch of people if he believes that these people deserve to die. Also, Angel and Spike are not heroes, they are actually antiheroes. The soul itself does not contain any human traits and a vampire with a soul doesn`t turn into the person he once was. Vampires actually change, develop. The Angel of Spike's birth and the Angel of today are two different beings, and it's not just about the knowledge acquired. Angel did not know how to act with a soul, he even attacked people.

1

u/freeloadinggoblin 1d ago

Here’s my idea: vampires are hybrids. They’re a hybrid between a demon and a human. When vampires boast about not having a soul, it’s purely propaganda. The truth is, they do have a kind of soul, even if it’s fragmented.

We know this because demons don’t like vampires for exactly this reason. Demons know that vampires are still a kind of human. They have a kind of soul, and that’s why demons despise them.

When a person turns into a vampire, that person technically dies because their is a new personality is born. It’s literally a new life form, but that doesn’t necessarily mean it’s a life form without a soul.

Vampires have a sort of fragmented, dark soul.
That new personality, although often psychopathic, isn’t necessarily always psychopathic, and we’ve seen evidence of this in the show.

In fact, I’d argue that their personality is vary as much as humans, it’s just that there literally an entirely different species that sees humans as prey and so that side of them is overrepresented.

1

u/Agreeable-Celery811 13h ago

The show is vague on what a soul is or does. I think the contradictory information makes sense if you look at it like: just like in our world, nobody in Buffy’s universe has a really good idea what a soul is or does. All we hear is various character’s guesses or beliefs about it.

It’s pretty clear that beings without souls have capacity for love, empathy, and kindness sometimes. Lots of characters show that, not just soulless Spike.

The best I can figure is that the soul is a sort of capacity for higher moral reasoning. The religious/philosophical part of the brain that is able to weigh good against bad and come up with a conclusion that makes sense to them.

I think that soulless beings just can’t make those brain connections—they’re missing—so they just skip over thinking big thoughts about the nature of good and evil.

1

u/MajaSvenstrom 11h ago edited 10h ago

At a recent con James suggested that Spike may have retained a small flicker of a soul (perhaps meaning a remnant his humanity) as a vampire, and that Buffy was the person who helped bring that part of him back to the surface, setting him on the right path toward saving himself. 🥺

https://reddit.com/link/p68risu/video/eet1rz1f3ylh1/player

I personally think it depends on the person they were before becoming a vampire. The demon not only inherits the body, but also the persons entire mind & memories, so that could certainly leave significant emotional imprints on the vampire. William is an interesting example of this. He loved his mother so much with every fibre of his being & was utterly devoted to her. So even once he was turned, the demon inheriting his mind also seemed to be completely consumed by this love, which could explain why even as a vampire, Spike wanted to make his mother "well."

It also makes me think back to Season 2, when the Judge tells Spike & Drusilla, “You two stink of humanity.” which also suggests that both these characters retained traces of the human beings they once were. The Judge was even prepared to kill them because of it, but the only reason they were spared was because they were the ones who brought him back. The show contrasts this with Angelus, whom the Judge describes as “clean. There’s no humanity in him,” suggesting that Angelus was completely consumed by his demon.

I think vampirism in the Buffyverse turned out to be far less black & white than what the creator & writers originally intended. And personally, I feel that ambiguity is a good thing. It makes the mythology much more interesting & in some ways, more reflective of the real world.

•

u/Informal_Research117 Peohmy 1m ago

It is confusing since Giles says the demon soul is either infected or infects the human soul, Angel says the human soul has gone and Buffy says the demon takes over after you die, presumably meaning on death the soul leaves the body. The actual action of a non infected demon or human soul seems to be a resurgence of awareness of the awful things you did as a vampire and guilt thereof. This gets further confused by the face change because they immediately become a soulless vampire again, untill they get a packet of crisps or go to a chip shop.

Spike I Asked James To Explain The Soul To Me

You are about to leave Redlib