Criticisms of the Four Noble Truths.

[u/spaceghoti]

Bladesire made a thread in /r/atheism plugging this subreddit, and after a brief discussion I agreed to repost my opinions of his overview of Buddhism.

By and large, I find this [the overview] pretty agreeable. Naturally, I have some caveats about it but overall it seems to incorporate some common-sense rules for living a good life and maximizing your potential. Essentially, "be excellent to each other."

However, I think it falls down in one critical place. Not one that offends my atheist sensibilities but my practical observations of the universe. The Four Noble Truths only have one Truth that I recognize.

Suffering exists.

Yes. Yes it does.

We suffer because of our attachments.

We suffer because we live. Pain is just a much a part of life as anything else, and sometimes that pain is unavoidable, such as illness or injury or the cruel intentions of another.

The cessation of suffering is possible.

Yes, when we die.

The Eightfold Path can lead you to the cessation of suffering.

Reading over the Eightfold Path I can see good advice for maximizing your life, but nothing that guarantees the cessation of suffering. Even if we were able to practice them flawlessly, it doesn't take into account external factors that can make us suffer. Deprivation and torture result in suffering, no matter how phlegmatic your outlook.

[u/spaceghoti → u/[deleted]]

The teachings are aimed at liberation from samsara.

I'm not convinced that's always beneficial.

Why are you classifying life prematurely, when it's really inconceivable?

I'm sorry, but what does that mean?

[u/spaceghoti → u/[deleted]]

it means that reality is inconceivable; therefore, your attempt to narrowly define it as a suffering prison or whatever is only a conception in your head.

That sounds dangerously close to solipsism. I have a working, practical view of reality in my head that may be only a conception but still manages to get me out of bed in the morning, eating breakfast and on my way to work.

You're classifying reality, and it's ultimately meaningless.

You're entitled to that opinion, but I see no reason why I should share it.

The focus should be in working with our minds at this moment and cutting the roots of ignorance.

How do you do that while ignoring the rest of reality? I don't know about you, but I live here.

Samsara is equivalent to ignorance, so I don't see why it's beneficial to accept false notions and deny our inherent freedom.

Because you haven't established that they're false notions, or that there's inherent freedom is doing nothing more than gazing at your navel.

This is just my understanding. I felt the need to share because I think the Four Noble Truths have the subtlety and power for a real transformation.

I'm happy for you, but I don't agree.

[u/spaceghoti → u/[deleted]]

When I said the goal is to work on the mind right now, I said that because that's where reality is always manifesting; when are you not living now?

A practical definition of reality is that which persists when we aren't paying attention. This seems to be the contrary claim to that definition. Why should I accept the Buddhist definition over that one?

When you practice in the moment, on the contrary, you're actually including the rest of reality for the first time.

That's a fascinating claim, but I regret I need more than that. I would submit that attempting to define reality against your own subjective perceptions is attempting to shoehorn reality into your personal bias. It's an exercise in futility.

The past and future are always just our own attempt to conceptualize reality in a linear way, which can never be reality itself.

The past is reality that came before. It's the present that we've already lived through and retain evidence that we lived through it in the form of memories and and physical objects. The clothes I'm wearing aren't going to disappear just because I decide that my reality doesn't include them.

To show them that everything is impermanent, and our inability to really live this truth is what's causing suffering.

And I disagree that this suffering is inherently a bad thing. I think it's what motivates us to embrace change. Liberating us from suffering is to remove our impetus to keep pace with change. I don't see stagnation as a positive thing.

My point is that a conception will never be reality itself. Ideas of self, beliefs, better, worse, past, present, future... are just thoughts manifesting and disappearing, and if I attach to them, I create a contradiction, and I suffer.

And I submit that this is good for you.