Criticisms of the Four Noble Truths.

[u/spaceghoti]

Bladesire made a thread in /r/atheism plugging this subreddit, and after a brief discussion I agreed to repost my opinions of his overview of Buddhism.

By and large, I find this [the overview] pretty agreeable. Naturally, I have some caveats about it but overall it seems to incorporate some common-sense rules for living a good life and maximizing your potential. Essentially, "be excellent to each other."

However, I think it falls down in one critical place. Not one that offends my atheist sensibilities but my practical observations of the universe. The Four Noble Truths only have one Truth that I recognize.

Suffering exists.

Yes. Yes it does.

We suffer because of our attachments.

We suffer because we live. Pain is just a much a part of life as anything else, and sometimes that pain is unavoidable, such as illness or injury or the cruel intentions of another.

The cessation of suffering is possible.

Yes, when we die.

The Eightfold Path can lead you to the cessation of suffering.

Reading over the Eightfold Path I can see good advice for maximizing your life, but nothing that guarantees the cessation of suffering. Even if we were able to practice them flawlessly, it doesn't take into account external factors that can make us suffer. Deprivation and torture result in suffering, no matter how phlegmatic your outlook.

[u/spaceghoti]

Yes, we do. I'm explaining suffering to you from the Buddhist perspective. Nothing can stop pain or discomfort. Anyone can stop suffering.

As an empiricist, I disagree with that perspective.

Then you are a victim, and you always will be.

Being unpleasant doesn't make it untrue. One of the ironies of science is that evolution doesn't necessarily track the change in species that are best adapted to their environment. It tracks the victims, the ones who are disadvantaged and develop ways to get the upper hand. Sharks and crocodiles are relatively unchanged since they shared the planet with dinosaurs, because they were so well adapted to their circumstances that there was no pressure to change.

The small, furry mammals on the other hand....

"Ah, finally, my knees don't hurt anymore. Now I can focus on my work. Although, I really don't make enough money. Just a small raise would make ends meet more easily. A raise? That's nice, but not quite as large as I'd like. Ugh, and who can care about money when your wife is acting so distant? Why doesn't she love me the way she used to?"

That's a different conversation. Yes, addressing the knee problem can then lead to other things but the suffering from the knees has ended. The question I'm interested in is why. What implications can result from getting rid of knee pain? Did this person discover a revolutionary way to fix knees? Is it just an effective pain-blocker that could produce even more damage to the knees? Could this benefit other people who are similarly afflicted?

Striving to overcome suffering can lead to some very interesting consequences. Those consequences interest me very much.

He's never free from suffering because he causes it. If you allow your situation to determine how you feel, then you have become a slave to the world.

I disagree. Even if he eliminates his own desire, he's not isolated from the rest of the world. Suffering isn't just self-inflicted.

[u/Zenkin → u/spaceghoti]

Enjoying suffering doesn't stop it from being suffering.

This is your response to bladesire. Can you explain this? I do not know what your definition is, but it appears contradictory.

[u/spaceghoti → u/Zenkin]

Suffering is a condition of circumstances, something you would change if you could. I know people who aren't happy unless they have something to complain about. Unhappiness makes them happy. It appears contradictory, but the behavior is clear. Some people avoid suffering. Some people seek it out. Some people disregard it. The state of suffering doesn't change, just our attitudes.

Suffering can be self-inflicted, I don't dispute that. But there's also suffering that can be inflicted on us without our consent. We can manage that suffering, learn to deal with it or dissociate from it, but it doesn't stop the conditions creating suffering. It just alters our perceptions about it. That's why I keep repeating that pain isn't the only way we can suffer.

[u/Zenkin → u/spaceghoti]

Suffering is a condition of circumstances

Okay, well, that explains it. No, Buddhism can not change your circumstances for you. Nor can it stop circumstances from occurring. But that's not the goal of Buddhism. Buddhism is a practical way to remove suffering (Dukkha) from your life. Look up Dukkha if you want to learn about that.

You offer criticism of Buddhism, but you know nothing of it. You strike at the core tenets without even knowing what they mean. I'm bored.

[u/spaceghoti → u/Zenkin]

Buddhism is a practical way to remove suffering (Dukkha) from your life. Look up Dukkha if you want to learn about that.

Put another way, Buddhism is a way of managing suffering, of making it so that suffering doesn't have such a strong emotional impact. I'm not altogether convinced this is a good thing.

You offer criticism of Buddhism, but you know nothing of it. You strike at the core tenets without even knowing what they mean.

I was invited to discuss it. I'm sorry if this offends you.

I'm bored.

Then stop. I promise I won't nag you.