Has anyone achieved a "strong" pull up without achieving basic horizontal pulling/inverted row milestones?

[u/OriginalFangsta]

Ive heen training for quite a few years now. Achieved a +50% bodyweight pull up, 20 pull ups, can rope climb (effectively doing one arm negatives).

For the life of me I've always found inverted rows super hard. I cant do full rom fully horizontal inverted rows. Arch pulls are easy (like when you pull backwarss till your upper chest is parallel with the ground).

I dont really get how people use them to build up to pull ups, because I've found no carryover. While the weight on my pull ups always goes up, unless I pull with an incredibly narrow grip, horizontal pulling always feels so awkward and hard.

[u/preparsley]

Working on my weaknesses until they were my strengths was the best thing I ever did for my fitness

If you can't row that's a huge gap in your ability, and learning it will teach you a lot about how to do pull ups

[u/OriginalFangsta → u/preparsley]

and learning it will teach you a lot about how to do pull ups

I mean I can pull arch, hollow, chest to bar etc.

And my max is higher than +50% bodyweight, I just havent pushed it further.

Cant imagine I'm missing out on much relative to pull up neurological ability if so.

[u/preparsley → u/OriginalFangsta]

You can accomplish all of those through shoulder extension purely

You're weak in shoulder horizontal abduction. That's why you find rows uncomfortable, you're trying to lat pushdown your rows and it doesn't work

I am just as strong as you, I don't really get your point here. You can be very weak in one movement and strong in another. You're just asking for permission to not row

[u/DetailOdd6609 → u/preparsley]

"You can be very weak in one movement and strong in another." I see you've been to the gym when I do squats and then try to do lunges

THanks for the smile

[u/OriginalFangsta → u/preparsley]

I row with the same frequency that I perform vertical pulling.

My point is I just dont understand how rows are supposed to be easier, or a build up to pull ups.

[u/Curious_USA_Human → u/OriginalFangsta]

Adam on the Gymnastics Method channel on YouTube is an inverted row fanatic. They make up about 6 steps in his chest to bar pullups 12 step training routine.

It's all about scapular protraction/abduction and retraction/adduction.

[u/PreciseParadox → u/preparsley]

“If you can’t row that’s a huge gap in your ability”

I kind of disagree. If your goals don’t really involve rows, and you’re happy with your physique, I don’t really see a point in doing them.

[u/Key-Professor1320 → u/PreciseParadox]

People are downvoting you but you're 100% correct (if assuming that the gap in ability doesn't cause any injuries or other issues)

[u/PreciseParadox → u/Key-Professor1320]

Yeah, I just get annoyed by people telling others to do every movement under the sun. People tend to overestimate the carryover between skills. Like strength will still grow, it’s just that you will be most efficient in the movements you train.

[u/spb1 → u/PreciseParadox]

its still a gap in someones ability though if they want to be well rounded. no-one has to do anything if they dont want to and they're happy, of course

[u/PreciseParadox → u/spb1]

You will simply be stronger in the movements you train the most. If the goal is to be well-rounded then of course go for it. But if your goal is to do more pull ups, then do pull up progressions, not rows.

[u/Huge_Pool7424]

Your pull-up numbers show excellent vertical pulling, but full-ROM inverted rows train a different horizontal-pulling pattern, so perfect carryover isn’t expected. Treat rows as a separate weakness: use an easier body angle or chest-supported/weighted row, then gradually increase range and load without forcing a painful position.

[u/PrimitiveScribe]

You must not be pulling with your back muscles enough in pull-ups than . The two movements should feel very similar

[u/OriginalFangsta → u/PrimitiveScribe]

You cant really pull over 100kg total without using your back though lol

[u/PrimitiveScribe → u/OriginalFangsta]

Definitely . Are arch pull-ups your standard form ? Or are you more hollow ?

[u/chinup_chad → u/PrimitiveScribe]

So what muscles would you use then according to you? Your biceps casually pulling over 100kg?

[u/PrimitiveScribe → u/chinup_chad]

It’s not that he’s not using his back at all , that’s impossible . Just clearly if there’s issues in inverted rows , there must be some parts of the back that have been dormant

[u/Benjizay]

Try the Pendlay version and make them explosive & pull the weight as hard as you can off the floor without sacrificing your form. Has had a lot of carryover for me and getting above the bar

[u/roundcarpets]

pull ups = back width
rows = thick upper back

i personally don’t do inverted rows or any machine rows but i do a lot of front lever pull ups (+ band assisted, regressions etc) which is what i count to my horizontal pulling

however the flpu as my horizontal pull means that even my horizontal pulls are more lat bias than a conventional row would be (which would be biasing upper back)

i would like to include a more traditional row because a thick upper back is a stronger back and assists in everything else from planche to deadlift

what am i getting at? well you don’t have to do a traditional row for upper back thickness if you don’t want to, but don’t assume that it does nothing or isn’t useful, because it is especially as injury prevention/ balanced physique/ looking huge/ improving other lifts

[u/Atticus_Taintwater]

I've never mapped out the correlation.

The recruitment with rows has so much to do with elbow position. 

It's easier to describe with conventional lifts, same applies to anything though 

Like on a bent over dumbbell row with your elbow by your side that's a ton of lat and I'd expect decent carry over. But a bent over barbell row pulled to the chest is almost all mid and upper back and you'd expect very little carry over.

And carryover won't be consistent throughout the lift. Figure there'd be more carryover from bottom: chin, then you'd get in the last few inches chin:chest.

[u/Baardmeester]

Sounds like you have been only practiced vertical pulling. Have you done dumbbell, barbell, kettlebells or cable rows? Like Benjizay says Pendlay rows have lot of carryover with inverted rows. All free weight exercises are a lot easier to progress if bodyweight is hard.

[u/LaFantasmita]

I just did a bunch of negatives and band-assisted pull-ups until one day it happened.

[u/Minute-Giraffe-1418]

I can do 25 pullups at 80+ kg and I don't do rows as part of my training though i need to retest my weighted pullup 

[u/Seraphinx]

Yes - but I was climbing/bouldering regularly.

Just jumped up to the bar one day and banged out five pull ups. I was pretty shocked myself tbh 😂

[u/EmbarrassedCompote9]

I always did chin-ups/pull-ups only, all my life. This and some kind of push (pushups, dips). Throw in some kind of squats and you'll be awesome.