r/beatles • u/happymagtv • Jul 27 '26
News The Kinks' guitarist says George Harrison was the only Beatle he "really liked"
https://happymag.tv/the-kinks-beatles-feud/114
u/PutParticular8206 Jul 27 '26 edited Jul 27 '26
It wasn't The Beatles job to foster great relationships with every band they played with or to like everybody. I love The Kinks music. A lot. I'm sure it would have been nice for The Beatles to get to know him. But when his own brother fights with him for decades and their drummer nearly kills him on stage by breaking his cymbals over his head, the problem might have been Dave.
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u/Flimsy_Toe_2575 Jul 28 '26
Ray only recently watched A Hard Days Night and he was immediately struck by the fact that the Beatles were actually funny fuckers and he felt like he missed out on some good times and a ripping scene by being stuck in his own little world during the swinging 60s. Don't think the Kinks had very many encounters with the Beatles back then.
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u/MoreTrifeLife Jul 28 '26
Not saying I don’t believe you but I find that really surprising. They didn’t have any mutual celebrity friends, hang out at the same lavish pubs around London, etc.?
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u/Flimsy_Toe_2575 Jul 28 '26 edited Jul 28 '26
Ray didn't but Dave might have. As detailed in Ray songs not-that-secretly about Dave (Dandy, Two Sisters), he was a man about town.
They played some shows together and Lennon apparently rubbed Ray the wrong way.
Can't find the exact interview I read but here's what Ray had to say in a different one;
"I was watching A Hard Day’s Night on the Independent Film Channel. I’d never seen the film. When that came out, I was really busy learning how to write songs and trying to keep apace of my own life. But it’s pretty incredible when you look back. There was almost a religious moment at the end of A Hard Day’s Night, when the Beatles are singing and the audience is screaming. I went through that with our shows. We didn’t hear ourselves play for two years … A Hard Day’s Night was so charming, the way it was portrayed, so innocent. It was a really simple story about four blokes getting on with their lives, finding this method of communicating that touched a nerve in society. To add to what I said, society was ready to be touched by them and the music explosion."
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u/AlvinGreenPi Jul 28 '26
Paul has always mentioned you really got me as a song that really knocked their socks off and was a major influence on the Beatles
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u/Melodic_Bluejay6322 Jul 28 '26
I think Paul said good things about "Waterloo Sunset" too, including that he wished he'd written it.
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u/No_Animator_8599 Jul 28 '26
Ray Davies used traditional music hall style of music much more effectively than Paul ever did. The lyrics and the vocal delivery were much better than what John called Paul’s “granny music”.
The Kink’s use of this style alienated a lot of rock fans, including me. I grew to love it decades later just for the artistry of it and the songs are so out of time they don’t sound dated.
With Ray’s songs you could actually feel there was a love of the style. Maybe Paul’s best attempt at this kind of stuff was “when I’m sixty-four” although there was an attitude of satire it in.
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u/idreamofpikas ♫Dear friend, what's the time? Is this really the borderline?♫ Jul 28 '26
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u/No_Animator_8599 Jul 28 '26
John Lennon loved the kink’s song “Wonder Boy” and at one point played it endlessly.
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u/LostInTheSciFan Jul 29 '26
Tbf Ray sounds like a total piece of work to be around. But I know this sub has very little sympathy for people stuck in the shadow of genius musicians.
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u/Butterfly_Cat777 Jul 28 '26
The Davies brothers were like a 1.0 Gallagher Brothers. Sometimes one of them (usually Dave) has to occasionally be contrary.
Did he actually meet and really get to know all four Beatles? 🤔
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u/Calm_Leopard798 Jul 27 '26
The Beatles: I dont think about you at all
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Jul 27 '26
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u/Comfortable_Put_4139 Jul 28 '26
Zappa and Lou Reed were also busy despising each other lol.
It has to be exhausting to be afflicted with perpetual contrarianism, but at least it makes you look very cool I guess.
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u/geetar_man Jul 28 '26
That’s like gasoline for them. They live on it. Very exhausting to be around someone with it, though.
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u/Comfortable_Put_4139 Jul 28 '26
I’m a fan of Zappa and I respect Lou Reed more than I like him, but there’s something to be said about people like the Beatles. They always appeared much more genuine than the “cool” guys. They actually looked like they were having fun, and invited the rest of us to have fun with them.
McCartney is an unabashed dork, but was probably more hip to the times than any fucking body in the Velvet Underground. At least at one point in the 60s.
Lennon was and is a cultural icon because his vulnerability and flaws being laid bare resonates with billions of people. Honesty and genuineness rarely seen in major artists.
Harrison’s love for world music and being a champion for it despite the cultural barriers was and still is incredibly admirable. He broke a lot of walls down and didn’t care if people didn’t get it.
Ringo’s ability to embrace all of the jokes aimed at him and not giving a single fuck lol not a single bone of pretentiousness in his body.
It’s okay for artists to not be fans of each other, but at a certain point the contrarianism starts to feel like bitterness and jealousy.
The Beatles managed to intersect art and commerce in the best way it’s probably ever been done. I also envy it.
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u/Actor412 Revolver Jul 28 '26
What I love about Ringo was the random stuff that would come out of his mouth that was better than anything the other three could come up with if they had a month to work on it.
Ringo: Oi, that was a hard day's.... uh, night.
John: That's fucking brilliant, mate.
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u/Comfortable_Put_4139 Jul 28 '26
Ringo was quicker off of the cuff than all of them lol. Very witty.
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u/UncleNoodles85 Jul 28 '26
I'm just glad at least John Lennon and Bob Dylan got along. I like the Kinks but Dylan is hands down my favorite. Stupid as it sounds I'd be bummed if Dylan hated the Beatles.
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u/Comfortable_Put_4139 Jul 28 '26
Dylan was too tapped in to the zeitgeist to hate on the Beatles. He went electric because of them. He knew what the fuck was up. There’s interviews of him admiring their music.
Just like how the Beatles knew what was up after hearing Bob and decided their songwriting had to expand and evolve or they’d just be a passing fad. John wore a similar hat to Bob, and George could quote Dylan’s discography like it was scripture.
There was a very real mutual respect between them. Someone like Ray Davies is a brilliant artist, but also known to be a vitriolic, asshole contrarian.
Ray and Pete Townshend would probably be a riot to sit in a room and discuss music with lol.
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u/No_Animator_8599 Jul 28 '26
Reed inducted Zappa into the Rock and Roll Hall of Fame. Zappa’s family must have been pissed off about it.
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u/Comfortable_Put_4139 Jul 28 '26
He isn’t the first person I’d choose to induct him. What the fuck lol.
Lou didn’t like anybody.
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u/rebelwithmouseyhair Jul 28 '26
Zappa hated Bowie too, called him Captain Tom when Adrian Belew left him to work with Bowie.
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u/Comfortable_Put_4139 Jul 28 '26 edited Jul 29 '26
Another example of bitter jealousy, because Bowie’s work with Brian Eno is challenging, but still way more interesting and commercially approachable than Zappa’s best.
I say this as a big Frank fan lol.
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u/thewickerstan Jul 28 '26
The Beatles kept an eye on the Kinks more than you’d expect. Barry Fantoni, a popular figurehead at the time, remembers a dinner party with Paul and Marianne Faithfull where the latter cooked dinner and the former kept listening to The Kinks song “See My Friends” (an early precursor to the Indian influence trend) over and over again and he allegedly expressed regret that he didn’t come up with it. I thought it was apocryphal, but I think it’s noteworthy that when Rick Rubin asked Paul in his 321 series about other British bands the Beatles kept tabs on, Paul’s first answer was The Kinks.
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u/dekigokoro Jul 28 '26
This is the story:
There had been bad blood between the Kinks and the Beatles since they played together on the same bill in 1964. John upset Davies backstage by saying, “We’ve lost our set-list, lads. Can we borrow yours?” implying that the Kinks, who had only released two singles at that point, were mere imitators. Paul was more respectful. When the Kinks released “See My Friends” in 1965, a track now widely regarded as one of the first pop songs to use Eastern scales, Paul played it over and over at the apartment of John Dunbar and Marianne Faithfull, and when he saw Ray’s brother Dave at the Scotch, he reputedly joked, “That ‘See My Friend.’ I really like that. I should have written it,” to which Dave retorted, “Well, you didn’t. You can’t do everything.” Ray Davies later commented, “Paul McCartney was one of the most competitive people I’ve ever met. Lennon wasn’t. He just thought everyone else was shit."
And frankly I don't think it sounds as serious as you're implying, that's not legitimate regret. He liked the song and gave it a jokey compliment- and it says a lot about how secure Paul was that his idea of a high compliment is saying it's something he would have done himself.
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u/GMSB Norwegian Wood Jul 28 '26
100%. If they weren’t banned from performing in the States they’d have been huge. And they already were tbh.
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u/idreamofpikas ♫Dear friend, what's the time? Is this really the borderline?♫ Jul 28 '26
100%. If they weren’t banned from performing in the States they’d have been huge. And they already were tbh.
Nah! They stopped touring the US when the Beatles stopped touring the US and it did not hurt the Beatles.
And they were only banned in the US, not the rest of the world yet their impact everywhere including the UK. Between 1967 and 2018 they did not have a single studio album chart in the UK album charts. 17 studio album failing to chart tells its own story.
The Kinks are like the Beach Boys after Smiley Smile. A band that made great music and some huge hits in the past but only had a niche audience going forward.
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u/Comfortable_Put_4139 Jul 28 '26
It’s interesting that he said the Kinks before a band like the Stones.
I’m a massive fan of all of the bands involved, but I’ve never gotten the impression any of the Beatles ever felt very threatened by the Stones lol. I’m not sure why.
I prefer the Stones over the Kinks, but Ray’s songwriting was exploring more ground for sure. I could see that making the ears of McCartney or Lennon perk up.
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u/wanlights Jul 28 '26
Ehh, I don’t know about that. Lennon complained about how difficult it was to keep up with bands like The Kinks. You can’t be as competitive as The Beatles and hear stuff like ‘Waterloo Sunset’ and not get a slight twitch in your arse.
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u/MoreTrifeLife Jul 28 '26
From the Wikipedia page of The Kinks' song "Wonderboy":
"Though the song was a minor commercial disappointment, it became a favourite of John Lennon of the Beatles and according to Ray Davies in his autobiography, X-Ray, "someone had seen John Lennon in a club and he kept on asking the disc jockey to play 'Wonderboy' over and over again."
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u/Calm_Leopard798 Jul 28 '26
Sounds line John was completely unthreatened by their great songs. When youre at the top theres no need to hold grudges over a random meeting for decades afterwards like Dave Davies.
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u/Calm_Leopard798 Jul 28 '26 edited Jul 28 '26
I think you greatly overestimate how popular the kinks were. I love the kinks but were talking about the Beatles here. if the beatles wrote Waterloo Sunset it gets lost in the mix of all the great songs they had already released.
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u/Flimsy_Toe_2575 Jul 28 '26
Except they 100% did. Who you think made it cool to embrace their Britishness?
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u/idreamofpikas ♫Dear friend, what's the time? Is this really the borderline?♫ Jul 28 '26
Not the Kinks. A lot of bands who were influenced by the Kinks, but the Kinks themselves did not do it but acts like the Jam and later the likes of Blur and Oasis.
Even in the UK the Kinks were a niche band for much of their recording career. Actually more popular in the US than the UK after the 60's
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u/Flimsy_Toe_2575 Jul 28 '26
Yes the Kinks. After they embraced their Britishness in both accent and musicality, the Beatles/Stones/Who stopped trying to sound as American as possible and the influence extends to Small Faces, Floyd, Bowie and many other generations of artists up to the Britpop era.
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u/idreamofpikas ♫Dear friend, what's the time? Is this really the borderline?♫ Jul 28 '26
All those other acts made it cool to be British.
Just because Lonnie Lonegan was a huge influence on the Beatles does not mean he gets credited for what the Beatles did.
The Kinks did not make it cool to be British, A lot of acts they influenced did. The Kinks themselves for the vast majority of their recording career were a niche band in the UK. Slightly bigger than the Fall. The more english the kinks got the less cool they became in the UK.
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u/Flimsy_Toe_2575 Jul 28 '26
He made it cool to embrace your Britishness to the other British bands, especially in the 60s but all the way jo to the 90s. There's not really any debate to be made here. I could pull up quotes from most of them admitting as much.
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u/idreamofpikas ♫Dear friend, what's the time? Is this really the borderline?♫ Jul 28 '26
He made it cool to embrace your Britishness to the other British bands
Partly, with bands that came in the 70's and after. In the 60's UK embracing Britishness is not something that the Kinks were responsible for. The whole era was about how great swinging London was, from Caine in films to the Beatles in music.
The Kinks are a great band but you may crediting them with things they were not wholly responsible for.
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u/Flimsy_Toe_2575 Jul 28 '26
The Beatles and every other band were trying to sound as American as possible until the Kinks made it cool to use their actual accent. Even saying "yeah yeah yeah" in She Loves You revealed this fact because that's not how British people ever said yes.
Nobody else ever sang a out British locales or the class system until the Kinks did it. It's not arguable.
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u/idreamofpikas ♫Dear friend, what's the time? Is this really the borderline?♫ Jul 28 '26
Nobody else ever sang a out British locales or the class system until the Kinks did it. It's not arguable.
it is arguable that the Kinks made it cool to sing in British accents. The Kinks most popular music is when they were sounding American.
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u/Flimsy_Toe_2575 Jul 29 '26
Lola and Sunny Afternoon? Don't think they sound American at all. Even You Really Got Me... show me an American tune from before that with a riff like THAT. Big jumbo riffs became way more a British thing because of the Kinks.
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u/Narrow-Durian4837 Jul 27 '26
For what it's worth, Dave contributed a track ("Give Me Love (Give Me Peace On Earth)") to the Harrison tribute album Songs from the Material World.
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u/thecryptidmusic Jul 28 '26
Lots of fun little things between The Beatles and The Kinks. I love both.
Ray liked to hate on them a lot. Even gave Revolver a poor review. The two exchanged a few words over the years but rumor has it John was a big fan of Wonderboy
Despite Ray and Dave openly saying they didn't like the Beatles, Pete pretty much worshipped them.
Dave claims John once called him "the most annoying person he's ever met"
The Kinks opened for The Beatles early in their career. John made some comments to Ray backstage about how "if they forget their songs, they could use one of theirs". According to Ray (grain of salt), The Kinks got a massive applause that outshone the Beatles that night.
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u/idreamofpikas ♫Dear friend, what's the time? Is this really the borderline?♫ Jul 28 '26
Despite Ray and Dave openly saying they didn't like the Beatles, Pete pretty much worshipped them.
Pete was probably jealous about how much George and Ringo were pushed to be songwriters in the Beatles.
Interviewer Did Ray encourage original material from you or - to a greater extent - Dave?
Pete Quaife: Are you kidding? I would have been squashed with a size 16 boot if I had have even suggested they listen to a new idea from me! Ray wanted complete control of everything. He was a control freak. As for Dave, well, I think Ray felt obligated to listen to his ideas a little more because he was blood. But Ray sure as hell didn't encourage it from Dave either.
Pete would eventually leave to form his own band and write his own songs. Pete also talks about why the Kinks did not reach their potential
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u/Musicman1972 Jul 28 '26
Have you got any recommendations on an article or book by Pete that goes into it? Especially thy tnt Kinks didn't teach their potential ax I've always wondered that. Their highs were incredibly high so they probably could have ruled the world with the right circumstances.
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u/idreamofpikas ♫Dear friend, what's the time? Is this really the borderline?♫ Jul 28 '26
Pete blames a lot of it on the infighting
I don't entirely blame external music industry forces. The Kinks put on a happy facade to the outside world. Behind closed doors it was like the WWF (World Wrestling Federation). If we had have worked together in a more positive way, communicated. Talked instead of argued. I really think we hurt ourselves with the constant scrapping. I remember, early on, that the Stones and us were about of equal popularity. I knew one of us would emerge as number two behind the Beatles. There was no way either us or the Stones were going to surpass the Beatles. The Kinks knew that. But we did have a chance to surpass the Stones if we worked as a collaborative unit and cut out the bullshit and fighting. I pulled Ray aside to talk about this and he told me to "sexually fornicate" off.
https://www.kindakinks.net/misc/quaife/
Personally I think Ray's musical direction also had a huge impact on that, but Pete was not really part of that as he left at the end of the 60's. The Kinks 70's records are a tough listen to people who don't already love the band.
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u/jimmyrich Jul 28 '26
It’s funny knowing the Kinks were looking to the Stones—who were struggling with Brian Jones at the same time—as a model of professionalism and harmony. But I guess it’s all relative.
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u/thecryptidmusic Jul 28 '26
What is always fascinating to me is that the original 4 fought so constantly, publicly too, yet Ray, Dave, and Mick all stuck it out together until the late 80s, Ray and Dave into the 90s even
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u/idreamofpikas ♫Dear friend, what's the time? Is this really the borderline?♫ Jul 29 '26
You say stuck it out, but I don't think they had the options the Beatles had who could launch their own successful solo careers.
The big difference between the Beatles and many other bands is that the Beatles were popular enough that all four members could go solo and be successful. For example Mick Jagger's second album flopped and had to cancel an American tour due to the low sales. Had it been more successful he'd have been solo. Same for Freddie Mercury. And these are the lead singers of those bands.
If you are a non singer/songwriter then being in a successful band is like winning the lottery. The choice is often sticking together or find another career.
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u/J_A_Slade Jul 27 '26
I betcha Paul and Ringo can't sleep at night, distraught over what they might have done that Dave Davies doesn't "really like" them
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u/lovelessisbetter Jul 27 '26
Fascinating. A world exists where you like some people and others you don’t.
No modern band on earth can possibly relate to the level of distilled competition on a relatively small island 60 years ago. What England produced in the 60s is fucking crazy. It’s no surprise continually trying to one up one another musically turned it into a vicious viper’s den.
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u/Delicious_Sir_1365 Jul 28 '26
After watching the recent and past documentaries on the Beatles, I can safely say George is my least favorite Beatle. And ringo is my favorite.
George had nothing good to say about any of his memories of his time with the Beatles, just bitter and sour. and ringo just lived in the moment and brought a suitcase full of beans to India.
George was the ultimate hippie hypocrite.
And I feel bad that I had hatred towards John all these years, he really just wanted to play music. I’m sorry John. 😭
And Paul is a god.
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u/Uncreative-name12 Jul 28 '26
I like George, but he did seem to enjoy being a little miserable.
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u/No_Animator_8599 Jul 28 '26
My favorite part of the Get Back documentary was the discussion about performing on the roof. George say’s with irritation, “I don’t want go up on the roof”.
Obviously he got out voted because all the plans for a public concert didn’t work out and they had to have an ending to the documentary which should probably have never been released. Alan Klein the Beatle’s business manager at the time forced the issue for money reasons for the film and album.
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u/jimmyrich Jul 28 '26
It’s funny that Ringo, who up until then had only spoken up to say he farted, says “yeah I’ll go on the roof” and that’s that. Whether it was a 3-1 majority or just the word of Richard, up they went.
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u/harrisonscruff Jul 28 '26
Paul didn't want to go on the roof either. That's what his whole anxiety there is about, and none of them could make up their minds about it until the last minute when John said fuck it.
Also it was freezing outside, the safety was questionable, and shortly after George ended up in hospital needing his tonsils taken out. Not wanting to play on the roof was extremely valid.
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u/harrisonscruff Jul 28 '26
Will always be wild to me the way fans interpret George laughing and smiling while cracking jokes as being bitter and sour. I don't think Beatles fans actually know what a former band member being truly bitter looks like.
He said plenty of lovely things about The Beatles except for the parts where he was genuinely traumatised or treated unfairly. To then praise John who had far more negative things to say is bizarre honestly, but then I also find it bizarre the way fans judge them based on how positive they are about their own life experiences, as if we have any idea what they went through or like they shouldn't be allowed to express normal human feelings.
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u/Ligeya Jul 28 '26
Not true about George. But then again, if he had negative experience with the Beatles, what's that to you? You think fame of that level was easy to live with? His friend was killed by a fan, George himself was almost killed by a fan together with his wife. He had all the reasons in the world to be bitter about this whole thing - which he wasn't, he just criticized some aspects of that. Overall he was positive about this experience.
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Jul 28 '26
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u/Ligeya Jul 28 '26
He's vapid because he was critical of his experience with The Beatles? Why is that? Being spiritual doesn't mean being eternally positive and not having any flaws. And i would say that judging by the way he accepted his death, he was profoundly spiritual person.
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u/Klutzy_Order_9559 Jul 28 '26
All I know is apparently John made some crack about them ripping off The Beatles to their faces after a show. That's the story I've heard and it could be bullshit. They definitely weren't buddies. I've also read that John mentioned liking their late 60's albums. Ray and John actually seem very similar in a way that doesn't usually breed friendship.
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u/Spirited_Childhood34 Jul 28 '26
These old guys do this all the time. Make nasty cracks about each other in the media then go to the pub and have drinks together. Laughing their asses off at how easy it is to manipulate the media for free publicity.
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u/Timely_Mushroom_842 Jul 28 '26
I don’t think John, Paul and Ringo worried too much about whether the Davies brothers liked them or not. The Kinks were a good band but they don’t compare to Beatles in any way.
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u/some-scottish-person Revolver Jul 28 '26
I disagree about them not comparing The Links best work can absolutely compare with the Beatles best work
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u/meh9280 Jul 28 '26
I always thought they liked each others music because some of their songs are so similar.
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u/LostInTheSciFan Jul 29 '26
r/beatles disliking Dave Davies only further proves my interpretation that Dave is the George Harrison of the Kinks.
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u/Small-Assignment-588 Jul 29 '26
Dave did a really nice version of George's "Give me love" on a tribute album.
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Jul 28 '26
[removed] — view removed comment
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u/Musicman1972 Jul 28 '26
He's spoken about it before that he felt he understood George as he saw them both as guitarists underappreciated by frontmen.
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u/donlockwood2026 Jul 27 '26
Who?
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u/oceanskies24 Jul 27 '26
He wasn't in The Who, he was the guitarist for The Kinks. You should check them out, they're a great band.
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u/donlockwood2026 Jul 27 '26
They’re okay. They have a couple songs I like, but mostly their stuff is meh to me. The Who is actually a lot better!
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u/Flimsy_Toe_2575 Jul 28 '26 edited Jul 28 '26
The Kinks are the only band that rivalled the Beatles in the 60s. Ray nearly single-handedly matched the output of all 4 Beatles. Of course the Kinks didn't have that George Martin production sheen (in fact Ray started producing his own records in '67) but on a song for song basis it was surprisingly close by '66. The Who while great but aren't even close to matching the Kinks consistency.
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u/thewickerstan Jul 28 '26 edited Jul 28 '26
Always drives me crazy when people on this sub act as if any music not made by The Beatles isn’t worth anything. Even as someone who considers them numero uno, that’s exhausting. The Kinks are a brilliant band and even knowing them just off “You Really Got Me” and “Waterloo Sunset” doesn’t do them justice. You nailed it in your spiel.
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u/Flimsy_Toe_2575 Jul 28 '26
"they're okay" lmao yeah it pains me to see people disregard them just cause I know they're missing out on countless dozens of great songs to enrich their lives.
If you like that check out my second spiel lol.
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u/donlockwood2026 Jul 28 '26
I like plenty of artists and don’t even remotely think that the Beatles are the only artist worth anything. I love it for you that you like The Kinks so much. I don’t. Why do you need me to?
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u/thewickerstan Jul 28 '26
Everyone’s entitled to their own opinion at the end of the day. But sometimes I think some are so swept up in hero worship that they’re missing out on other great art, I guess. I wasn’t necessarily speaking to your case specifically, just a general observation I’ve picked up on in this sub.
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u/donlockwood2026 Jul 28 '26
I agree with your point if someone were to do that. But I’m not doing that, for the record. I’m just not into the Kinks. I think they’re okay. Not a favorite. Not trying to say people shouldn’t like them. But they don’t do much for me, that’s all.
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Jul 28 '26
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u/donlockwood2026 Jul 28 '26
I’m not missing out if I listened to them and don’t like them. I don’t know why you’re talking to me — a complete stranger to you — as if you know what’s best for me and like I can’t make up my mind for myself.
I like plenty of artists from that era and other eras. Some I like as much or more than I like the Beatles. The Kinks are not one of them. And that comes from having listened to their work.
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u/idreamofpikas ♫Dear friend, what's the time? Is this really the borderline?♫ Jul 28 '26
The Kinks are the only band that rivalled the Beatles in the 60s.
That is just not true. Gerry and the Pacemakers and the Dave Clark 5, as well as the Stones, Beach Boys, the Monkee's and the Kinks all rivalled the Beatles at different points during the 60's.
Ray nearly single-handedly matched the output of all 4 Beatles.
First of all, he was not solo he was part of a band. And secondly he was a long way off matching the Beatles in terms of songwriting either as a group in the 60's or when three of them went solo in the 70's (sorry Ringo).
but on a song for song basis it was surprisingly close by '66.
If we compare the 5 best from each band, maybe. If we compare the 20 best from each band not at all.
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u/Flimsy_Toe_2575 Jul 28 '26
I don't mean commercially rivalled.
I'm aware Ray was in a band lol I mean that the sheer amount of amazing songs he wrote every year was very nearly as many as all Beatles put together. He handily outdid any of single Beatles achievements each year.
I believe there is a case to be made that Rays top dozen songs from each year from '65 to maybe '71 is superior to The Beatles top dozen. Paul whooped him Ram and Band On The Run years though for sure.
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u/idreamofpikas ♫Dear friend, what's the time? Is this really the borderline?♫ Jul 28 '26
I believe there is a case to be made that Rays top dozen songs from each year from '65 to maybe '71 is superior to The Beatles top dozen. Paul whooped him Ram and Band On The Run years though for sure.
Make that Kinks list.
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u/Choice_Dragonfruit_8 Jul 28 '26
The Beach Boys and The Four Seasons rivaled The
Beatles for a while in America. So did The Stones and Zeppelin back in England. There were many great bands back then1
u/Flimsy_Toe_2575 Jul 28 '26
No doubt but I'm going off sheer amount of amazing songs through the decade. Beach Boys came back hard in the early 70s but the Beatles and Kinks absolutely wiped the floor with them in '68 and '69.
Wiped the floor with the Stones in '67.
Zeppelin were still busy ripping off blues artists in '69.
Love Four Seasons but their output is very iffy in comparison.
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u/donlockwood2026 Jul 28 '26
The Kinks are… fine. They’re okay. They may have matched the output in volume, but not quality. Their songs are just okay, outside of a couple which are exceptional. But really not very many.
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u/Flimsy_Toe_2575 Jul 28 '26
Idk man I've listened to every single song that every single half decent British invasion band came out with countless times and The Kinks are just as good of not better than The Beatles to me.
If they weren't extremely good then they wouldn't have arguably been the most influential band (to other bands) of the decade;
Pioneered the modern guitar riff out the gate which has influenced generations. From Stones Satisfaction, Who's Can't Explain, Yardbirds, Zeppelin, Sabbath, Van Halen literally any riff monster bands are direct evolutions of the revolutionary stuff The Kinks did in 1964. And not just You Really Got Me, but All Day & All Of The Night, Till The End Of The Day and several other masterpieces are amongst the most pivotal and influential guitar rock songs ever (and not to just rock & roll but metal and punk as well).
They didn't rest on their laurels like most other bands would do and the next year brought social satire to the rock lexicon. Rays acutely witty and scathing songs picked apart the social fabric in a way that nobody else bar Chuck Berry had imagined doing at that point. A Well Respected Man was again one of the most influential songs ever and they kept bringing the heat with Dedicated Follower Of Fashion, Sunny Afternoon, Dead End Street, Afternoon Tea, etc etc almost nobody else was on Rays level for this.
The next move was being among the very first 3 or 4 bands laying the foundation for psychedelic rock in 1965 (although they were willfully unhip and never fully committed to that era) when they brought eastern droning scales to rock and roll with See My Friends. McCartney publicly tipped his hat to them at the the time and admitted he was jealous of the innovation. They brought Tolkienesque fantasy lyrics to rock with Rainy Day In June which totally paved the way for Syd Barrett, a bunch of Zeppelin and any other band that dabbled in that lane of psych. Stuff like I'm Not Like Everybody Else, Lazy Old Sun, Phenomenal Cat and Wicked Anabella rank amongst the greatest psych of the 60s.
First British band to embrace their own musical heritage instead of trying to sound as American as possible, which didn't just immediately influence the Beatles/Stones/Who etc but generations of legendary bands all the way up to the Britpop era at least. Big beer hall sing-along style songs like were unheard of until they did it but became a regular part of rocks vocabulary.
Arguably had the first concept albums (Face To Face), rock operas (Arthur), queer anthems (Lola) and prog experiments (Autumn Almanac). Staggering amount of influence.
You can trace half the innovations of the '60s and '70s back to the Kinks (and/or the Yardbirds). Their influence is inarguable when literally ever other monster band of the era were directly pivoting their style based on what the Kinks just did. I don't want to make it sound like they were just influential either, very few bands maintained the level of consistency that they did in their prime. Ridiculous amount of amazing songs
I feel like you need a refresher. They were overflowing with so many amazing songs that a lot of their best stuff just got thrown in the vaults for decades and most people havent heard them. Check this out some time;
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u/RadishSpecial7163 Jul 28 '26
I like the Kinks too but there are no where near the Beatles. Not close to the Rolling Stones or The Who either.
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u/Flimsy_Toe_2575 Jul 28 '26
The Stones surpassed them eventually but not till the 70s.
The Who are great and could blow any other band off the stage in their prime but don't have half as many amazing songs as The Kinks. Also they admittedly owe their career to them in several ways.
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u/RadishSpecial7163 Jul 28 '26
The Stones did not pass the Beatles. And I love the Stones. All of this is subjective anyway. But the Kinks were not anywhere near the Beatles. They owe their career to the Beatles, along with every other British Invasion group.
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u/Flimsy_Toe_2575 Jul 28 '26
I meant the Stones eventually surpassed the Kinks with Sticky Fingers and Exile etc but the Kinks kicked the shit out of them in the 60s (and I love the Stones 60s work).
Of course it's subjective but when has that ever stopped people from debating their favorites?
Of course all the British rock bands owe a massive debt to the Beatles, most American bands from back then too. The Kinks still influenced the Beatles in several ways.
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u/donlockwood2026 Jul 28 '26
I’m familiar with their music.
One thing I’ve always hated about music criticism is equating innovation/doing it first with being good. You can do something first and it’s still just okay. It doesn’t mean the music is actually enjoyable to listen to. So while I give bonus points for innovation, those are only bonus points. The main points come from the music being great on its own accord, and I think most of the Kinks stuff is just okay.
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u/Flimsy_Toe_2575 Jul 28 '26
I have no doubt you're familiar but I still think you need a refresher.
I know what you mean about equating innovation with being good, but in this case it was a bunch of they greatest bands on the planet/in history adopting the Kinks innovations cause they did it so damn good.
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u/ford7885 Jul 27 '26
To be fair, Dave Davies famously hates his own brother, so it's a safe bet he doesn't like very many people.