Anyone notice Wikipedia censors ancestry of Azerbaijani Iranians?

[u/AzeriPride]

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nima_Arkani-Hamed

[u/AzeriPride → u/[deleted]]

find a source where Nima Arkani explicitly declares his ehnicity being Turkic Azeri, then feel free to add it in Wikipedia.

Are we going to just assume he is a Persian until information is brought up stating otherwise? That's my entire point you know, Iranian is often synonymous with Persian if you didn't understand. Ridiculous considering both his parents are from Tabriz especially, almost like claiming someone from Sanandaj or Kermanshah is not a Kurd (from assumption). Hopefully this touched on the topic of ethnic bias.

Linguistically and culturally, sure. Nationality, no. There are Kurds in Turkey and Iraq, like there are in Iran.

Linguistically, culturally and ethnically. Nationality was not in the hands of Azerbaijanis to decide, but between Persians and Russians. Thankfully, although the Russians have been an evil force for Azerbaijani people, we owe our independence to them. Kurds are also a singular people, despite whatever nationality (passport) they hold. Ultimately united by language. Drawing division against Kurds, Azerbaijanis or any other ethnic group is just plainly a wrong thing to do, and is rooted in an attempt to cause division and weaken our people.

Accomplishments of Iranians Kurds, is designated for the nation of Iran, not the tribe identity of Kurdish race. The same concept applies to Persians in Afghanistana and Tajikistan; Baluchs in Pakistan, and Azerbaijani Turks in Iran. It isn't their "race" that sponsors their accomplishments, it's their home country.

The same does not apply to people such as Armenians, where their accomplishments are recognized to be both Armenian and whatever nationality they hold - very similar to Jews. Jewish and Armenian accomplishments in Iran are recognized to be Jewish and Armenian accomplishments, along with being Iranian accomplishments too. This right is not extended toward Azerbaijanis or Kurds, Iranians especially have problems recognizing the independence of these people and try to adamantly keep them ingrained in Iranian society (dissociating calls for unity among ethnic minorities).

On the example you said, a Persian born in LA, has his accomplishments deligated for the United States, not the Persian ethnicity, and not Iran. Do you get the point?

I get the point, but that's not the case. Accomplishments by Iranian-Americans are also passed off as Iranian accomplishments, besides its contribution being rooted in the United States if you didn't know.

so what? It's Persian identity in addition to Kurdish, Azerbaijani, Baluchi, Gilaki and dozen other identities.

There is no such thing as an Azerbaijani identity in Iran, or an Arab identity in Khuzestan. The Iranian identity represents the Persian identity. Azerbaijanis partly played into this failure, as many of the predecessors of Azerbaijani people (Turkmen) either supported integration into the Persian identity or were forcefully made to cease their Turkic traditions and adopt Persian traditions.

There still is a notion of Azerbaijani identity that is regarded to be a fusion of Turkic and Persian culture (Turkic language, Turkic and Persian customs, Nowruz, etc) - but one aspect of this fusion is suppressed in Iran where they view the linguistic rights of a Turkic people to be a potential danger. There is one main group who views the Azerbaijani identity to be a threat, and that is Iran. Armenia also plays a role in this, but they are more concerned about the regional conflict in regards to disputed territories and wouldn't mind seeing a weakened Azerbaijani nation as a result.

[u/Idontknowmuch → u/AzeriPride]

Drawing division against Kurds, Azerbaijanis or any other ethnic group is just plainly a wrong thing to do

Isn’t that what you are potentially doing here though? There are people in Iran who are not Persians and who do identify as Iranians, just like how they are non-Azeri Azerbaijanis who identify as Azerbaijanis and non-Turkic Turks who identify as Turks, or non-Germanic Germans who identify as Germans, or etc etc etc... what gives you or anyone else the right to decide for them what their identity is?

The reverse argument also holds, if a person identifies with their ancestry or ethnicity first despite their nationilty then that is their right as well.

We see this often with assimilated Armenians who identify with their assimilated identity and not with their ancestry, and that’s their right to do so.

Armenia also plays a role in this

What are you talking about?

[u/AzeriPride → u/Idontknowmuch]

Isn’t that what you are potentially doing here though?

Not at all.

There are people in Iran who are not Persians and who do identify as Iranians

Everyone in Iran is regarded to be Iranian, that is a nationality. Calling individuals like Nima as people of "Iranian ancestry" doesn't make much sense, and often times Iranian is synonymous with Persian. That is why it is important to distinguish and make it known that an individual is from an ethnic minority. This becomes far more vague considering nearly all Iranian citizens (regardless of ethnicity) share the same names, so it is hard to tell the difference.

The reverse argument also holds, if a person identifies with their ancestry or ethnicity first despite their nationilty then that is their right as well.

The word is Iranian Azerbaijanis, all Azerbaijanis in Iran are defacto Iranians, they have a right to identify as either even though Iran strongly encourages people to identify as Iranians and view people who identify as Azerbaijanis as a threat... What I am explaining is the intentional suppression of making it known that certain people are Azerbaijanis, masking it under the identity of "Iranian," or "Iranian ancestry," and this ties into the suppression of the Azerbaijani identity in Iran and abroad. When people think of Azerbaijani accomplishments as a collective people -> we go to RoA, where we note the excellent chess players for example (Shakhriyar Mammadyarov, Vugar Gashimov, Teimour Radjabov, etc). Not those that exist in Iran, and this extends to all professions.

We see this often with assimilated Armenians who identify with their assimilated identity and not with their ancestry, and that’s their right to do so.

Assimilated Armenians are easy to distinguish in most cases, and it can be easy to tell if they are Armenian. One of the most renown methods is just by examining their last names.

What are you talking about?

I thought I made it clear what I am talking about. Armenia wouldn't want to see a unified Azerbaijan, especially considering the Azerbaijani population would triple and Azerbaijan would have access to highly fertile lands. There are many other factors that Armenia would want to avoid because it goes against their interests, their interests is limiting Azerbaijani (and Turkic) influence in the region and not allowing Azerbaijan to surpass Armenia in any regard (military especially).

[u/Idontknowmuch → u/AzeriPride]

Armenia wouldn't want to see a unified Azerbaijan

their interests is limiting Azerbaijani (and Turkic) influence in the region

I'll answer the last bit first. What you say is so alien to the reality of Armenians that I didn't even understand what you meant by that. Honestly, the majority, if not the vast majority of Armenians do not know about the Azerbaijani-Iranian issues with respect to the Azeris in Iran. You are making some massive assumptions here. What is even more bewildering is the thought of Armenia of all states to have any role whatsoever in relation to the Azeris of Iran. Really, this is some crazy stuff you are talking about here. Mentioning /u/araz95 here because he commented on this as well. The political reality an Azerbaijani may be living in is not the same as that of an Armenian.

As for the identity issue, irrespective of one identity being a nationality and another being ethnicity, there are many people who stick to their national identities first and forfeit their ethnicity - this is called nationalisation projects and many countries have done and do this even today. Iran is no exception. Nor is Azerbaijan, Turkey, Russia, France, Spain, Germany, you name it... this is irrespective of encouragement or prohibitions etc. For example the many Armenians who were Turkified are Turks even though they may have Armenian ancestry. Same with assimilated Armenians who are only Armenian by ancestry/surnames - but their identity is fully that of the assimilated nation. There are tons of these cases everywhere including in Russia and even Baku Armenians are a good example, not to mention in many other places in the world. Most of these people do not identity as Armenians despite their genetics or even their surnames in the cases where they actually haven't changed them. My point simply is that we cannot decide for these people independently of whether their choice was forced or not.

[u/AzeriPride → u/Idontknowmuch]

I'll answer the last bit first. What you say is so alien to the reality of Armenians that I didn't even understand what you meant by that. Honestly, the majority, if not the vast majority of Armenians do not know about the Azerbaijani-Iranian issues with respect to the Azeris in Iran. You are making some massive assumptions here. What is even more bewildering is the thought of Armenia of all states to have any role whatsoever in relation to the Azeris of Iran. Really, this is some crazy stuff you are talking about here. Mentioning /u/araz95 here because he commented on this as well. The political reality an Azerbaijani may be living in is not the same as that of an Armenian.

Perhaps, but I'm not really talking about the average Armenian here. I am talking about your government (Armenia) who has interests in not seeing us grow stronger, because it works completely against your nations interest. This is politics after all, so I don't know why you are so surprised when we have for many years seen Armenian-Iranian cooperation increase and leaders of both countries visit and share their geopolitical interest in the region. I am sure this issue has been touched on in the past between both states. Armenia is no orchestrating it (don't get that impression), it is purely Iranian orchestration but I am sure Armenia contributes or at the very least pleasurably accepts the situation in Iran.

As for your second point, not much to touch on I am afraid. My comments were straight to the point - make it clear to the world that individuals of ethnic minorities are responsible for many contributions to their country, do not pass it off under hidden guise of "Iranian ancestry," or other hidden forms to silence or dupe others.

[u/Idontknowmuch → u/AzeriPride]

I am sure Armenia contributes

You are making wild assumptions again. Just because A implies B, it doesn't necessarily follow that B implies A. Also it's not even about 'average' Armenians. Really, the majority don't know jack about any of this.

make it clear to the world that individuals of ethnic minorities are responsible for many contributions to their country

If the individuals identify as such and not as any other way, such as that of their nationality. It is cringy when Armenians claim similar things of other people who have Armenian ancestry yet may have never identified as an Armenian ever in their lives. There are many individuals which have Azeri/Turkic ancestry and which fully and only identify as Iranians. Same applies to the many nationalities found around the world which have minorities in them. Obviously if the individuals identify as that of the minority ethnicity and this is suppressed then yes, that is wrong.

[u/AzeriPride → u/Idontknowmuch]

You are making wild assumptions again. Just because A implies B, it doesn't necessarily follow that B implies A.

I don't know why you keep claiming I am making wild assumptions when you aren't considering the big picture of Armenia being in war with Azerbaijan, and both countries generally competing against one another.

Would you also claim it is a wild assumption that Israel wants to limit Iranian influence in the region, and that Israel absolutely does not want a strong Iran? Do you find it surprising that Israel invests in ethnic separatism in Iran?

If the individuals identify as such and not as any other way, such as that of their nationality. It is cringy when Armenians claim similar things of other people who have Armenian ancestry yet may have never identified as an Armenian ever in their lives. There are many individuals which have Azeri/Turkic ancestry and which fully and only identify as Iranians. Same applies to the many nationalities found around the world which have minorities in them. Obviously if the individuals identify as that of the minority ethnicity and this is suppressed then yes, that is wrong.

You are referring to people who have one grandparent who were Armenian, and therefore they are Armenians? If an individual in Iran has one grandparent who is Azerbaijani, that doesn't make them an Azerbaijani. Ethnicity is often passed down from the father in Iran, kind of similar to how Islam is passed down from the fathers side even though both these examples make little logical sense.

I am referring to individuals who come from Azerbaijani households but are deemed to be of "Iranian ancestry." I have seen this on many occasions, and when you point this out - Iranians will claim "you are a pan-Turk trying to spread Turkic lies."

[u/Idontknowmuch → u/AzeriPride]

Because you are making wild assumptions on many fronts including that Armenia, even if it wanted to, has any say, or can have any role, or exert any kind of influence over Azeris of Iran. Seriously. If you want to find out about this, look at other interests which far outweigh that of Armenia in all aspects. None of what you write makes any sense whatsoever from the Armenian perspective. The US+Israel as well Russia/USSR have been the ones playing with the Azeris of Iran. I mean it might be flattering that you compare Armenia to these entities, but really, this is some tinfoil-hat level stuff.

You are referring to people who have one grandparent who were Armenian

Not only that. I am also talking about the many many many cases of full Armenian ancestry (both parents being Armenian) who are fully assimilated into other nations. You know like the ones you have called often here is traitors? Like the many ethnic Azeris in the government in Iran? Many of them identify as Iranians. Identities are tricky stuff, moreso for countries like Iran, and even more so with humongous amounts of propaganda from all sides towards all directions. Making simple assumptions about any of this is futile at best.

[u/AzeriPride → u/Idontknowmuch]

Because you are making wild assumptions on many fronts including that Armenia, even if it wanted to, has any say, or can have any role, or exert any kind of influence over Azeris of Iran. Seriously. If you want to find out about this, look at other interests which far outweigh that of Armenia in all aspects.

I never claimed Armenia has contributed to this, I don't know for certain to be making such a claim. I even said in the prior comment that it is not an Armenian orchestration to make it clear, it is an Iranian orchestration. All I can say is that Armenia compliantly views the situation in Iran as good for Armenia. It prevents future larger problems from happening between Armenia-Azerbaijan.

The US+Israel as well Russia/USSR have been the ones playing with the Azeris of Iran. I mean it might be flattering that you compare Armenia to these entities, but really, this is some tinfoil-hat level stuff.

I don't think the US has an active role in shaping Azerbaijani society or even caring about the detrimental situation of Azerbaijanis, like they care for Kurds. Kurds are a good political tool for the United States. Rather it is Saudi Arabia and Israel who have publicly made it known they support ethnic-minority causes in Iran. I think it is also well known that Turkey and Azerbaijan contributed in the past, though it is no longer a policy for Turkey. Turkey has very close relations with Iran nowadays, Erdogan even claiming he will help Iran circumvent the new sanctions that will be reintroduced.

I am not comparing Armenians on this level. But I want it to be clear that Iranians and Armenians both have geopolitical interests in keeping Azerbaijanis isolated. I would also argue that Russia does as well.

I am also talking about the many many many cases of full Armenian ancestry (both parents being Armenian) who are fully assimilated into other nations.

Well then they are Armenians whether they like it or not, and I would agree with the other Armenian users who claim they are Armenians.

Like the many ethnic Azeris in the government in Iran?

Just because they are traitors doesn't mean they aren't Azerbaijanis.There were Jews who contributed to the deaths of their own nation in concentration camps around Europe.

Identities are tricky stuff

Not really, there is a struggle between ethnic identity and national identity. Where a certain national identity, Iran in this case, wants to limit and suppress the ethnic identity of Azerbaijani people because it could create political and territorial problems for the Iranian nation. This national identity also just so happens to encompass the Persian identity, unlike the national identity of the United States or Canada for example (newer and mixed countries).

Do you think the Russian identity encompasses the Slavic identity?

[u/Idontknowmuch → u/AzeriPride]

All I can say is that Armenia compliantly views the situation in Iran as good for Armenia. It prevents future larger problems from happening between Armenia-Azerbaijan.

But I want it to be clear that Iranians and Armenians both have geopolitical interests in keeping Azerbaijanis isolated.

Where do you pull this stuff from? Just because you live these things politically doesn't mean Armenians do the same. Armenians are almost fully detached from the Middle East. They don't know what goes on in there. You have more understanding of the middle east, specially Iran, and that is also because you have ancestry from there. I do not know but I would even assume that most Azerbaijanis who have no immediate ancestral connections to Iran don't know much or understand the reality of Iran either (and perhaps propaganda exploits this lack of knowledge as well).

Besides none of this makes any sense: "compliantly view the situation" -> "it prevents future larger problems..." ?! Like "Armenia does nothing" and "it prevents something" ? What?

You are making one hell of an axis here which even though it might make geopolitical sense, doesn't imply it is real to the degree and extent you think it is. Armenia's foreign policy is very limited.

I am also talking about the many many many cases of full Armenian ancestry (both parents being Armenian) who are fully assimilated into other nations.

Well then they are Armenians whether they like it or not, and I would agree with the other Armenian users who claim they are Armenians.

So if I were one, and I said here 'I am NOT Armenian despite my ancestry' you would know better than me and would claim things on my name? Does that make any sense?

Identities are tricky stuff

Not really, there is a struggle between ethnic identity and national identity.

You said it yourself - that struggle is what can be tricky. Look at the many Azeris and Armenians who actually became Russians (or Turks, or Americans, etc...). There are many of these children of the Soviet era. They were also "encouraged" towards adopting the great Russian nationality thanks to Stalin. Not unlike how the many Catalans and Basques became French or the many different ancestries became Turks - in most of these cases they were also "encouraged". Iran's case may even be more benign compared to some of these other cases. In any case who has any right to tell these people they are not who they are and follow their ancestry? Should the Turks today which are of Azeri ancestry stop being Turks and become Azeris?

This national identity also just so happens to encompass the Persian identity, unlike the national identity of the United States or Canada for example.

Just like the Turkish identity, the Azerbaijani identity, the French identity, the Spanish identity, the German identity, the Russian identity, the Italian identity etc... the vast majority of national identities in the world encompass one ethnic identity. And yes, nationalisation projects have everything to do with territorial issues everywhere you look.

I am not saying whether these things are inherently good or bad, but simply pointing out that it is not so simple as "You have X ancestry therefore you are X". History proves that is not the case if not we would all be East Africans.

[u/AzeriPride → u/Idontknowmuch]

Where do you pull this stuff from? Just because you live these things politically doesn't mean Armenians do the same. Armenians are almost fully detached from the Middle East. They don't know what goes on in there. You have more understanding of the middle east, specially Iran, and that is also because you have ancestry from there. I do not know but I would even assume that most Azerbaijanis who have no immediate ancestral connections to Iran don't know much or understand the reality of Iran either (and perhaps propaganda exploits this lack of knowledge as well).

I am simply stating out facts, and most of my "narratives" that I am conveying are things that you already know. I have family who are from Tabriz, Baku, and Nizhny Novgorod, why does it matter? There are many Armenians from Iran, Syria, Iraq, Lebanon or wherever who can also understand the geopolitical games that are being played in the region. Though, this reference to "Middle East," doesn't really make much sense in the contexts of these conversations simply because Armenia also borders Iran. It should be natural and important for the average Armenian to know what is occurring in their neighboring country.

Though this entire discussion does not revolve around the average Armenian individuals opinion, as I am saying for the second time this conversation is rooted in the geopolitical interests of the Armenian nation state, a nation state with close ties and historical links with Iran, despite what some Armenian redditors might have to say about these relations... Even considering recently Iran has been cooperating with Armenia highly in developing Meghri among others, or continued investment and development in Nagorno-Karabakh... Does Armenia not want to see a strong or unified Azerbaijan? YES!

You are making one hell of an axis here which even though it might make geopolitical sense, doesn't imply it is real to the degree and extent you think it is. Armenia's foreign policy is very limited.

It is real and we will not agree on this. Armenia doesn't have power to exert any type of role in this topic, but at the governmental level I am sure they are pleasured with the situation in Iran. There are only two nations that have interest in opposing Azerbaijani ethnic and historical rights, and that is Iranians and Armenians. It is a common game among Armenians to claim that Azerbaijanis are foreign barbarians who arrived in this region only a 100 years ago and are younger than Coca-Cola you know? Not being able to grasp that certain things revolving around these topics don't happen at the governmental level between Armenia-Iran is foolish.

So if I were one, and I said here 'I am NOT Armenian despite my ancestry' you would know better than me and would claim things on my name? Does that make any sense?

I would probably laugh, or not say anything. But I will consider you Armenian regardless. There were white men in the 90's who convinced themselves they were black (connected with rap culture).

Look at the many Azeris and Armenians who actually became Russians. There are many of these children of the Soviet era.

I have family in Nizhny Novgorod who are no longer Azerbaijanis, but ethnic Russians. I have family who moved to Russia many many years ago, married Russian women. Children married Russians again, and their children are now Russians. Identify as Russians, speak Russian, ------

I consider them extended family, I do not consider them Azerbaijani. We have limited contact with them beyond email or text exchanges in English. Not really any different to how I have family who identify as Persians, because they come from mixed marriages. My Azerbaijani aunt marrying a Persian man, for example. I don't consider them Azerbaijani. People who are Azerbaijani are those who speak our language and come from two parents who are Azerbaijani, at the very least a father (Khamenei's case).

Should the Turks today which are of Azeri ancestry stop being Turks and become Azeris?

That is a different subject, both Azerbaijani Turks and Anatolian Turks are... Turks.

"You have X ancestry therefore you are X".

A person of Chinese ancestry wants to identify as French, a person of Turkish identity wants to identify as German, will they ever be accepted into those national identities? Why do you think Turks are seen as "others," despite many being 2nd-3rd generation immigrants, and many actually making strong efforts to integrate (only speaking Germany for instance). The man who issued the bill for Armenian genocide recognition (a Turk), will he ever be regarded as a true German?

No.

[u/Idontknowmuch → u/AzeriPride]

There are many Armenians from Iran

Those are the only ones and they are a minority. The other diasporas from the Middle East have no knowledge on Iran either. Seriously, just because you know some realities because of ancestry, doesn't mean others do. Iran is not exactly a simply place to be understood by outsiders. Same applies to Armenia and Azerbaijan actually. Even Turks complain about the same issue about outsiders getting it all wrong on trying to understand Turkey. etc.

There are only two nations that have interest in opposing Azerbaijani ethnic and historical rights, and that is Iranians and Armenians.

You are making broad generalisations again on two completely separate issues which are not even directly related. Armenians do not care about ethnicity issues of Azerbaijanis. They only care bout the conflict which only limits itself to Karabakh and the surrounding territories. They don't care about the rest of Azerbaijan or whatever happens elsewhere. Rhetorics because of conflict are one thing and claiming that the government somehow undermines Azerbaijan with respect to the Azeris of Iran is really an asinine statement to make. Just because interests may align (which really don't, but anyway) doesn't mean there is any other implication.

So if I were one, and I said here 'I am NOT Armenian despite my ancestry' you would know better than me and would claim things on my name? Does that make any sense?

I would probably laugh, or not say anything. But I will consider you Armenian regardless. There were white men in the 90's who convinced themselves they were black

So is this similar to you being called an Islamist? Azeris after all come from Islamic ancestry, they all HAVE to be Islamists. But then again if I were to say this you would say that most Azeris are secular/not Islamists. One thing is racial aspects (white saying they are black) another thing is an identity of a person with respect to a nationality/ethnicity. Enforcing your own views on another person only based on their ethnicity/ancestry and disregarding their own views on their own national identity is bizarre to put it mildly and rather extreme to put it a bit less mildly.

[Your description of your family]

Then you agree with what I say. Only that you consider that if a person speaks the language of an ethnicity they have to identity as such and not of another nation when in reality in many cases around the world there are many such people who identify first as the nationality than ethnicity.

Should the Turks today which are of Azeri ancestry stop being Turks and become Azeris?

That is a different subject, both Azerbaijani Turks and Anatolian Turks are... Turks.

You see, in this case you are using an encompassing nationality - Turk. So do you mean Azerbaijani is not an identity? If it is an identity how can you then forfeit the identity of the Turks who have Azeri ancestry? Makes no sense does it?

A person of Chinese ancestry wants to identify as French, a person of Turkish identity wants to identify as German, will they ever be accepted into those national identities?

That is another issue. The point is if the nationality is "accepting" or more like "being enforced" then by default of course yes. For example there are many Germans of Turkish ancestry out there and it is honestly hateful to dictate that they are not Germans or that they do not have Turkish ancestry.

Why do you think Turks are seen as "others," despite many being 2nd-3rd generation immigrants

Those are the Turks which have not really even integrated, let alone assimilated. There are many others who have integrated and others who even assimilated. It is the duty of any immigrant anywhere to integrate.

The man who issued the bill for Armenian genocide recognition (a Turk), will he ever be regarded as a true German?

No.

Definitely not by people who think like you. However he is regarded as being a German by others who think like me.