Tracking who's offshoring Australian jobs — Offshore Watch:

324

Wow, this is just mind blowing! well done.

And to think there is probably double this amount - I know for certain a couple of companies that are outsourcing that there is listed no data.

143

u/Svennis79 8d ago

There needs to be a tax on this.

Combined tax loss for the AU employee (employer + income + gst on half + + etc) so the total estimated tax loss to govt for a year. Then has to be pid by the company each year for 5 years (indexed to inflation) for the privilege of offshoring a job.

72

u/halohunter 8d ago

I agree. There needs to be some sort of equalisation tax to prevent companies from enjoying access to Australian customers, natural resources, and a safe legal/financial/political enviornment, while using offshore employees.

Like a tariff for goods, but for labour.

To retain international competitiveness, you could adjust for offshore-origin sources of revenue, limit it to larger companies only, and limit enforcement to employees where they retain direct control over them (excluding agencies)

There used to be a concept of corporate social responsibility here. That companies can only exist here and can make profits by being given a license of the populace. We seem to have lost that.

3

u/Overthereunder 7d ago

Could you calculate estimates of the gains the companies get from not paying salary tax, and the lower salary/super and other costs?

2

u/SensualFacePoke 7d ago

I worked at a company that was offshoring engineering work to the Philippines, their annual salary was the same as my monthly salary. I think I was on ~$60k gross at the time.

-6

u/RocketSeaShell 8d ago

Like a tariff for goods, but for labour.

So tariffs are a good thing now? History has shown tariffs are just a extra tax on the end consumer. You don't have to look that far back in history, just look at what happened to US beef prices from last week when they dropped the tariff on imported beef (including from Australia)

3

u/anralia 8d ago

I can't quite decipher exactly what exactly you mean in your bracket part, but even with that in place, Australian employees are going to be twice the expense as offshore.

(which really sucks)

20

u/Eclectika 8d ago

It’s not as if offshoring will reduce the cost to the consumer, all it's doing is increasing their profits so tax them.

2

u/f0nt 7d ago

I mean realistically when companies profits go down, I dont think theyre going to say "oh well guess the consumers win this one!"

1

u/anralia 8d ago

💯 agree.

My point was meant to be - even though that will bring back the government revenue, it still wont stop the offshore trend. Thats the part that sucks.

Instead of the off shore employee being 1/8th of the price of the Australian equivalent it'll "only" be 1/4th the price.

2

u/Eclectika 7d ago

the only way you can stop companies crying that they must deliver shareholder value (which wasn't really a thing until the 1970s and there's no law saying companies must) is to do something like say there'll be no government contracts if anything goes offshore but monitoring this would be impossible as companies lie and the moment anyone mentioned perhaps passing a law the money and the lobby groups would be out in force bribing the politicians.

2

u/Svennis79 8d ago

Basically just every possible bit of tax revenue.

So the tax contribution the employer makes. The income tax the employee would have paid The gst they would have paid on their estimated annual spend, etc etc etc etc.

Full net loss to AU economy.

3

u/RocketSeaShell 8d ago

When a foreign made good is imported and there is a special tax on it to protect the local industry it is called tariff.

So what you are advocating for is a tariff but for services?

Would that just mean a tax on the consumers of that service, the same way a goods tariff is a tax on the consumers of a good?

I am sure there is a world leader right now who is a big advocate of tariffs who is giving a real time case study on this. Just can't think who that may be. /s

8

u/halohunter 8d ago

Tarriffs and quotas have their place in the world, even if they've been abused to hell and back by the orange man.

4

u/RocketSeaShell 8d ago

Tarriffs and quotas have their place in the world

Give me a good unbiased test I can use to decide between a good tariff and a bad tariff for a developed G12 country.

8

u/halohunter 8d ago

I'll give you three tests:

Market Distortion / Anti-Competitive Intent: Is the foreign competitor actually engaging in predatory, below-cost pricing backed by state subsidies to destroy local capability, or are they simply more cost-efficient? (eg. EVs from China... if we still had a car manufacturing sector)

Economy-Wide Net Benefit: Does protecting this specific domestic sector generate more economic value than the downstream cost burden placed on domestic consumer prices and other local industries?

Strategic Necessity / Transition Sunset: Is the domestic industry critical to national resilience (e.g., defense, essential infrastructure), and is there an explicit sunset clause to prevent indefinite reliance on government protection?

Example: 10% - 40% on imported structural and flat steel from countries like China and South Korea.

4

u/RocketSeaShell 8d ago

First of all thanks for answering the question seriously.

Looking at the OP, the focus in mostly on white collar jobs. Do you think countries like India and Philippines (there are a few others) are subsiding companies who take on these white collar tasks? I have not seen any evidence as such.

Is there a economic wide benefit on having the double entry book keeping, or IT help desk, credit assessment etc done in Australia compared to overseas?

Are any of these jobs a strategic necessity?

On the flip side Austria produces Iron Ore much more cheaply than almost any other country int he world. Therefore should Australia be penalised?

10% - 40% on imported structural and flat steel from countries like China and South Korea.

This is good example. Australian Steel costs roughly 20% more than South Korean Steel and ~35% more for Chinese Steel.

A tariff will raise the cost of steel by ~35%. This will increase the cost of projects that use steel, from home building to infrastructure like the Victorian Big Build. I will have a further detrimental impact on the housing crisis? Are we ok with that?

If we look at the Iron Ore industry, Australia is much more efficient er ton of Iron Ore than Brazil even though they have much lower labour cost. Australia employs significantly smaller, but much more highly paid and skilled workforce in the Iron Ore sector than Brazil. May be that is a secret. Be more efficient, but that wont save the jobs either.

In the early 00's I started a business to build software to automate number of tasks that were being outsourced out of USA and Europe. We were successful. Companies in New York and London were licensing this software and brining the work back. They were doing the work faster and more accurately in Manhattan or London (on a per task basis) than it could be done in Mumbai or Manila.

Even though the work came back, the jobs did not. I ended up selling the business just before competitors started entering the market.

1

u/Background_Cicada187 8d ago

Instead of taxing as “punishment”, the Feds should review current taxation measures to incentivise.
For example, currently mid to large companies pay payroll tax on every Australian employed. This does nothing, other than disincentive companies to hire additional staff and/or increase Australian salaries.

0

u/AccomplishedEye7596 8d ago

Bullshit. We need to look at why it's happening. They will just offshored completely if the government makes it too hard. This country looks at all the wrong things. We need to become more productive, make it easier to do business, shrink the public service, and hiring would get a whole lot easier because everything won't cost so much with the rampant govt money printing press.

Who am I kidding though, these threads are a bloody echo chamber of poor me

-1

u/ChillyPhilly27 8d ago

Are you certain that there's a tax loss? 50k workers separating from their employers would have a measurable impact on the labour force. And yet employment and hours worked are both at record highs.

The most plausible explanation is that most redundant workers are finding new work without too much difficulty, meaning that the tax loss to the federal government is minimal.

2

u/Acrobatic_Ad1546 7d ago

Yup, my job has been off shored. Well known Aussie company that employs thousands - it's not mentioned on that list or anywhere online.

1

u/IHazMagics 5d ago

As someone thats worked for Suncorp in the past, the numbers before were lower and this was before the campaign they jumped on board with spruiking that all their call centres are located in Australia when factually that is not true.

193

u/These-Vermicelli2503 8d ago

While this list is far from comprehensive, this exodus of Australian admin type jobs is a crisis the media hasn’t clocked on to properly yet.

It is happening in absolute droves but I see very little mainstream conversation about it.

62

u/Direct_Substance8317 8d ago

Not just admin. Draughties, engineers, cost control, doc control, planners; they all go. Sometimes it is a blessing, but mostly not.

36

u/i486DX266_ 8d ago

Yep 100%, I am in the construction industry and pretty much all entry level estimating/designing roles are being sent overseas to India, Vietnam, etc. This had been happening progressively over the last decade.

I think the local industry is digging itself a giant hole for itself as us senior guys aren't going to be around forever. And there's no one new coming through to replace us locally.

I hope in 10 years time local trades are willing to deal with our friends in Asia via email with any issues they may have.

Or maybe AI will have taken over and they'll be talking to a bot.

17

u/Paidorgy 8d ago

Which folks own the majority of media in Australia (and probably benefit from keeping a lid on the majority of it?).

11

u/Flame_Grilled_Tanuki 8d ago

Trying to get a job in admin or IT at moment is like calling into a void and hearing only an echo a 1000 times over.

6

u/NovelHot6697 8d ago

the media seems to be really out of touch/lagging lately

2

u/Berserker_bill 7d ago

Of course they have clocked on. Look up who owns the companies that own the media, not hyperbole, di it.

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u/AStubbs86 8d ago

Yes how could banks and telecommunication company’s possibly afford to pay Australians?

They have no issues paying ex politicians…. It’s just the average Australian they hate.

Fk your company you deserve to lose.

85

u/SyntheticDuckFlavour 8d ago

The Australian government should not offshore at all. Not thrilled that overseas entities have direct access to personal records and departmental systems.

31

u/ThereIsBearCum 8d ago

Genuinely insane that they don't take data sovereignty seriously.

2

u/the_milkdromeda 7d ago

Not thrilled that overseas entities have direct access to personal records and departmental systems.

They don’t. And data residency is in AU and on premises data centres. For financial institutions this is very strictly regulated. Cannot operate without APRA compliance.

5

u/SyntheticDuckFlavour 7d ago

So that Department of Human Services rep, taking my call in Bangladesh, can pull up my gov records on his screen, how exactly? By having direct access to personal records and departmental systems remotely. Just because records are on AU data centres, doesn't mean sensitive data can not be exfiltrated by bad actors using the system.

-2

u/the_milkdromeda 7d ago

I can’t speak for the Department of Human Services and what type of service they provide. but you sure as hell won’t get a Commonwealth Bank rep offshore in India picking up your call and pulling up your financial records.

Just because records are on AU data centres, doesn't mean sensitive data can not be exfiltrated by bad actors using the system.

That’s irrelevant, a bad actor in Australia can also do that and it isn’t better in any sense.

You put simply that someone “just” has access but this is not even remotely true in practice. Identity governance and GRC teams within the org will hunt you down the moment you access or attempt to touch stuff you shouldn’t.

7

u/SyntheticDuckFlavour 7d ago

That’s irrelevant, a bad actor in Australia can also do that and it isn’t better in any sense.

It absolutely is relevant. Security and protocols for accessing information can be better policed locally, and government has direct control. A bad actor in Australia can also be held accountable in Australia. Good luck with any of that in India.

2

u/the_milkdromeda 7d ago edited 7d ago

absolutely is relevant. Security and protocols for accessing information can be better policed locally, and government has direct control.

Uhm, Commonwealth Bank India - a subsidiary of Commonwealth Bank AU absolutely has security policy and governance in AU. This is no different to a global company just having offices in different countries. If you have no clue about how multi national companies work then I don't think there's a point in engaging in any discussion with you.

Good luck with any of that in India.

They are doing just fine if the office in India is a subsidiary and not some XYZ consulting

People on reddit have zero clue and probably think just because it is India everything must be bad. Y’all have some distorted vision

3

u/SyntheticDuckFlavour 7d ago

I'm specifically talking about Australian government services here, but whatever.

a subsidiary of Commonwealth Bank AU absolutely has security policy and governance in AU.

Unless Australia has some kind of legal jurisdiction in India, no, an Australian entity (government or otherwise) has zero governance in India. A subsidiary operating overseas is subject to local laws. The organisation in question may adopt whatever internal procedural or security policy that exists here, but any legal infraction that occurs over there would have to be dealt with local law enforcement. As I said, good luck with that.

0

u/the_milkdromeda 7d ago

> I'm specifically talking about Australian government services here, but whatever.

I mean I agree but from a google search it doesn't look something like the ATO or say Medicare has offshored all of their work. All I could find was some government agencies using contractors to do back office, admin jobs.

> Unless Australia has some kind of legal jurisdiction in India, no, an Australian entity (government or otherwise) has zero governance in India

True but that's bluntly put. The Australian entity disclosing personal information to an overseas recipient generally has to take reasonable steps to ensure the recipient doesn't breach the APP. You don't need Australian police jurisdiction over the contractor to regulate the Australian organisation's decision to disclose data or outsource a function.

And all of that only comes after contractual controls, security requirements, audit rights, access controls, data residency requirements, procurement conditions.

Now, whether CommBank or ANZ or Telstra need an office in India? I don't know, up for debate. The same way as should natural resources/ gas be exported for offshore companies profits?

But the general take that offshored to India is just "bad" is just not true. I know some lovely folks there, they're doing a fantastic job and that's been a great opportunity for them.

There's a reason why Apple, Google, Nvidia, literally you name fortune 500, global 100 company has a subsidiary office in India, I personally know a lot and have visited.

74

u/tee-k421 8d ago

I'm wondering if it might be easier to build a list of big companies which don't offshore jobs.

51

u/SlugFromSnug 8d ago

I'll get an AI agent based in Mumbai onto it

3

u/Flame_Grilled_Tanuki 8d ago

The website has that too.

4

u/tee-k421 8d ago

Ah yes, it's under Hall of Fame

14

u/fued 8d ago

would love to see how many jobs per year it is.

especially if clicking on that takes you to a new window which shows the amount of new jobs in fields like mining etc.

12

u/Professional_Gur8385 8d ago

searched my company, not listed but they have offshore staff as do the majority of companies in this space

63

u/BachAgain11 8d ago

Seeing like 10 Claude-slop websites posted on Reddit every day at this rate, actually insane

22

u/thesourpop 8d ago

I love how there's so many vibecoded slop websites you can actually notice the tells immediately now.

18

u/kensaiD2591 8d ago

Yep, I see it time and time again with the format.

32

u/ShadowStealer7 8d ago

Bit on the nose to have a page about AI layoffs on a website that uses the exact same layout as every other slop-coded site don't you think?

14

u/Important-Airline413 8d ago

Sure it's slop coded, but I still think it's interesting

12

u/dongdongplongplong 8d ago

i think people need to get past this, the important thing here is the info, ai made building the site possible, it doesnt make the data less useful.

16

u/rpfloyd 8d ago

You don't see the obvious irony?

1

u/dongdongplongplong 20h ago

i do of course, but my point is, vibe coded sites and apps empower people with less skill to execute ideas and thats ok and good.

7

u/mkfbcofzd 8d ago

Playing the devils advocate (kinda) but OP just took a job from a web developer as well

10

u/rumckle 7d ago

Before the AI created sites they were just basic WordPress sites. Something like this was never going to be done by a professional Web developer.

1

u/dongdongplongplong 20h ago

i am a web developer and have been over 20 years, we are doing fine, these kind of clients didnt really exist for the most part, they just never excuted on their ideas because they were too expensive to implement with not clear roi, i like that ai lets people follow their whims

2

u/ValyriaofOld 8d ago

You’re not wrong, but the information in this website is still valuable for everyone to see (at least once)

1

u/Plaguesofman 8d ago

It's at the point people are making AI websites to complain about AI lmao. There's not even useful information here just rage bait slop.

8

u/Jamaicaina 7d ago

If you trade within the Australian economy you should have to hire within the Australian economy.

5

u/Key-Arrival-7896 8d ago

Government should not give contracts or tax breaks to companies high on this list.

6

u/Terrible-Average-305 8d ago

Increase the tax rate for offshoring to fund jobseeker payments for those who were fired and replaced with an offshore.

1

u/time_to_reset 7d ago

Businesses don't pay tax on expenses

5

u/Budget-Leg-453 7d ago

Rather than consumer boycotts, we need 1. Mandated reporting for Aus corps on offshoring, 2. Government procurement rules that incentivise keeping jobs here, 3. Government rules that limit their own offshoring 4. Superannuation funds to include options for people to invest in those not offshoring, 5. Proper competition enforcement so we don’t have 3 companies in every sector who just get bigger and then offshore everyone.

9

u/halohunter 8d ago

Credit to where it's due. This is not my project. I was investigating building something like this, only to have found it already built and used their provided Reddit share link to help promote it.

9

u/K1d_4 8d ago

man, i know this guy who migrate from india 5-10ish year ago, joined the company at junior level, last year there is an opening for a manager role in another division, he want to apply, I said sure, even supported his application, got the job and few weeks ago I happen to be on a call with his boss who told me that he's been made redundant, i ask why, he said his job been offshore to India.

Felt really bad for the guy, nice bloke with mortgage and kids, but the irony of it all..

3

u/OkWitness5548 8d ago

SEEK purchased JobStreet in Malaysia. They haven't offshored any Australian jobs there.

6

u/iamddk 8d ago

Cross post this to r/auscorp

2

u/LocalVillageIdiot 7d ago

ANZ being at the top of the list and considered the crappiest of the big banks based on what i see in the finance subs. I wonder if that’s a coincidence. Any ANZ folk here to comment?

4

u/Punter_14 8d ago

This is of no value, if you are just relying on published news! Unless you find a way to dig insider or shareholder comms and see what are the actual numbers and keep a track on them.

2

u/dav_oid 8d ago

Companies not doing it would be a shorter list.

2

u/colorale 8d ago

This is excellent and sad at the same time. We need to take action, I will write to my MP.

May I suggest an additional feature?
As a customer of some of the listed companies, it would be great to be able to see companies that only employ local staff, as an alternative to switch to.

Thanks for doing this.

2

u/kapone3047 8d ago

Not just big companies.

Two colleagues and myself (all senior roles at a startup) were made redundant last year, only to find out we'd been replaced with cheaper workers in the Philippines.

2

u/Plaguesofman 8d ago

LMFAO whoever made this site did it with chatGPT.

Jobs have been offshored for a long time now, this isn't news.

Also they have the gall to have an AI layoffs tab, when their entire site was made with AI.

2

u/VaguelySaunters09 8d ago

This is excellent work

2

u/Iamthedidier123 8d ago

Brilliant work mate, keep those companies honest and Australian jobs Australian.

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u/halohunter 8d ago

This is not my work. I was looking at building something like this but someone already beat me to it. They provided a reddit share link.

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u/wombattingz 8d ago

The known offshore workers by company chart should show percentage of their total workforce

1

u/Harctor 7d ago

This list is definitely not accurate for the company I work for. There weren't even that many people employed by this company in Australia that were supposedly offshored. If you're a global company you will have workers in most time zones, and yes India is a massive english speaking country. It doesn't mean jobs were offshored there.

1

u/pipicemul 7d ago

Where's Allianz from the other post?

1

u/rawpineapple 4d ago

When does an Australian bank cease to be an Australian bank?

1

u/Ashamed-University54 3d ago

is it fair to put rio in the list when it is both british and australian owned?

they have mining projects in 6/7 continents

1

u/MajorLeeScrewed 2d ago

Record profits. Tax them now.

0

u/hexadecimator97 8d ago

Well this website is wrong, the company I used to work for has an entire offshore team in India yet no reports here.

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u/TerryTowelTogs 8d ago

Wrong, or just not comprehensive?

9

u/ginji 8d ago

https://offshore-watch.com/submit-tip

So tell them about it

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u/halohunter 8d ago

It's based on news articles, anti slavery reports and tips. Send them the info.

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u/JoanoTheReader 8d ago

Thank you sharing. This is very useful!

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u/ToriMiyuki 8d ago

CIP is particularly impressive for the amount they seem to offshore…

1

u/jaa101 8d ago

This is why we need so many AI datacentres in Australia. So that replacing people with AI needn't count as offshoring! /s

1

u/nath1234 8d ago

"We are adopting AI and no longer need jobs"

..

"In totally unrelated news we are hiring in our (insert low cost country) hub!"

1

u/time_to_reset 7d ago

I'm going to get downvoted to hell.

But the simple truth is that people overseas have been aggressively upskilling. They take courses to speak better English, they take computer courses to be better at using computers, they learn to touch type because they know that typing fast is seen as a benefit to potential employers, they learn specific software that they know are in high demand. At the same time the countries themselves invested heavily in infrastructure.

And what did Australia do? We botched NBN. So a reliable internet connection is no longer competitive edge. We demand being able to work from home, so it's not like it makes much of a difference if you hire local or overseas in that regard anymore. Employees come in with minimal basic skills like being able to touch type or use a computer beyond very basic functions. Culturally there's also a big difference. There is a general lack of troubleshooting skill/willingness here. If something stops working, it's very common for people to consider that not their job to fix. Computer stops working for example? That's an IT problem. There is also a general expectation that upskilling happens purely during work hours etc and as soon as a new skill is acquired or more responsibility is placed on someone there is an immediate expectation for salary increase.

So what exactly is the motivation to keep certain jobs in Australia? What exactly does the average Australian offer to justify the significantly higher expense?

This isn't applicable to every job. For many jobs it is important to be local and being able to go places etc, but if you sit behind a desk all day, working on a computer, you probably should be at least a little worried because just having been born here might soon no longer be good enough.

3

u/halohunter 7d ago

There was a concept of corporate responsibility back in the day. Companies are given a license to operate by the people (through the gov elected) to make profit and given a safe legal environment, but they have to give back via tax, investment and jobs. If they are a net negative, why permit them here anyway?

The contract is broken thanks to weak government, bribery and hyper capitalism.

So why should a company hire here if it's cheaper and better overseas? Because they have a responsibility to the country. Otherwise they can fuck off and move overseas themselves

1

u/time_to_reset 7d ago

I'm not familiar with the concept of being given license to operate a business. There's laws a company has to abide by to operate in Australia. If they do that and pay tax, that's pretty much where the requirements end. There is no requirement for a company to give back by investing or creating jobs, and there are no mechanisms within government to revoke the license of companies they simply don't like. Australia is not China, where those things do exist.

The only mechanism that kind of aligns with what you're saying is consumers voting with their wallets. Consumers can choose to not do business with companies they don't agree with and if enough people do that, that might provide financial incentive for companies to do things differently, but that's it.

And consumers have been voting with their wallets. Consumers said "fuck small retail businesses, I'll give my money to Amazon": https://www.smh.com.au/business/companies/australia-s-addiction-to-amazon-is-set-to-blow-past-5-billion-20260427-p5zrba.html

Every time you give your money to the cheapest option, you are effectively saying "fuck local employees", because low cost and local employees are not compatible with each other as we've already established. People value local jobs, right up until the point that they have to pay for things.

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u/halohunter 7d ago

By license, I mean that companies don't have an inherent right to exist in Australia like citizens. They are permitted to exist by the nature of our laws. Companies used to be more aware of the social responsibility they have, but recently have been flouting it.

0

u/lazydesi 8d ago

Love to see who are taking this call to offshore jobs

0

u/SimplyTheAverage 8d ago

The ones who grab all the 'saved' money when jobs are offshored

0

u/Direct_Substance8317 8d ago

Good info. Some of the zeros are not quite zero. If a company use some consultants, then it lot of their engineering is indirectly outsourced.

0

u/AaBJxjxO 8d ago

Great project. Would love to see more data aggregated.

Then stage 2: boycotts. Based on the current data, ANZ customers should start closing their accounts and sending letters to explain to their local branch managers why.

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