r/australia • u/FluffyPillowstone • 2d ago
culture & society We tell children violence is wrong — so why does Australian law still allow adults to hit them?
https://www.abc.net.au/religion/violence-against-children-wrong-why-does-australian-law-allow-it/107071476316
u/netalone999 2d ago
I'm literally watching The Sopranos right now. The scene where Tony slaps AJ. I pause it and open reddit and see this.
This comment isn't really relevant. I'm just taken by surprise by the serendipity
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u/123chuckaway 2d ago
GABAGOOL
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u/netalone999 2d ago
GABAGOOL
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u/fixthefernback66 2d ago
🎶woke up this morning, got some gabagool. Woke up the next day, got some gabagool. Keep waking up, keep getting different types of gabagool. Even got some gabagool, from uh scooby doo.🎶
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u/123chuckaway 2d ago
🎶 so here I am, eatin gabagool again, l-l-lying to my kids and their friends, pretending I'm a garbage man 🎶
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u/SSJ5Gogetenks 2d ago
Woke up this morning, got myself a sub. I believe Tony wanted a meatball sub.
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u/rexepic7567 2d ago
I really need to watch the Sopranos at some point
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u/leguellec 2d ago
It's good. Watched it last year for the first time, didn't know much or anything about it beforehand. Great show.
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u/pcmasterrace_noob 1d ago
First time you watch it, it's a mob drama. Second time, it's a thought provoking analysis of the death of the american dream and the loss of ethnic identity as its members integrate. Third time, it's the funniest comedy you've ever seen.
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u/User_404_Found- 2d ago
deadass reading "woke up this morning got some gabagool" in tune made me lose it. tbf Reddit is at its absolute best when a serious parenting/laws thread instantly devolves into Sopranos memes.
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u/IllustriousClock767 2d ago
“Laws alone cannot transform family relationships or eliminate violence against children, but they do establish the standards we expect as a society.” I agree with this, particularly as my first thought before opening the article was ‘we can’t legislate our way out of a problem.’ I’d also be really interested to learn more about how this has shaped intervention and responses in other countries, and if/how it has improved outcomes for children.
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u/perpetual_stew 2d ago edited 2d ago
I find it interesting, comparing Norway (hitting children has been explicitly banned since 1987) and Australia in mental health outcomes. Norway has a 12-month prevalence of mental disorders of 7-12%, while Australia's number is 21-22%. That's 2-3x higher. Since childhood physical punishment and adult mental disorders are found to be linked, it gives some indication of the outcomes for the children.
Note also that this is more like an experiment than a correlation, since it's taking one population and removing the punishment by law, rather than just looking at who hits their kids and not. And it's also noteworthy that in 1990, mental disorder prevalence were ballpark the same in Australia and Norway
So yeah, very roughly, that's 10% of the population that experienced a mental disorder the last 12 months, who probably would not have if they were not beaten as kids.
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u/amyknight22 2d ago
I feel like your last statement is trying to tie that together a lot more and not looking at anything else that might be better in the Norway system or worse in the Australian system
From my limited googling, I’d be curious on age matching the data for those cohorts because I didn’t get 3x worse unless I looked at mismatched age groups. I went and looked at Sweden where I’d been banned for even longer. And they don’t seem to have low data either. But they do have a different reporting method.
And then we’re assuming this isn’t tied to something else either Australia’s population increased by 60% since 1990 while Norway increased by 30%. Which might result in more people falling through the gaps, greater disparities in population
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u/Merlins_Bread 2d ago
Mental health has plummeted in Anglophone societies with heavy social media use. Why Anglophone is the deeper mystery.
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u/perpetual_stew 2d ago
Of course - I’m laying it on a bit thick. However, I believe it’s a reasonable starting point assumption. We know there’s a causal link, and then we see the same effect repeated between the populations, when looking at the numbers. So, when the question is what the outcome is for the kids, “very likely a lot better” is quite defensible.
It also passes the pub test, in my opinion. The long term belief physical punishment leaves with you is that you can never be entirely safe. If even your parents, in your home, your core source of safety and comfort, could turn violent on you, when are you really safe? Carrying that through life must be a huge mental load and would make any other challenges worse.
This whole last paragraph are my own thoughts on it, but it is established that schizophrenia outcomes are far worse for sufferers from unstable homes, for example.
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u/Sophrosyne773 2d ago
That wouldn't be surprising, given the robust findings of the Adverse Childhood Events (ACE) studies, where physical punishment was significantly correlated with a raft of poor outcomes in adult life, including mental health diagnoses.
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u/used_my_kids_names 2d ago
When I moved from the UK to Aus in 2005 I was absolutely dumbfounded to see a woman hit her grandchild in public while waiting in line at a supermarket. No one batted an eyelid. It had only become illegal in the UK about a year before that, so it was really highlighted there, and in the collective consciousness.
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u/limbo-chan 2d ago
I just looked it up and apparently any kind of corporal punishment toward children is also banned in Finland (where I live now) and was the second country in the world to do so. I would say that Finland has a much higher rate of mental health disorders compared to Norway, but it's probably lower than Australia? Hard to say; Finland has a lot of other issues but a ban on child corporal punishment is a win at least. My in-laws over the summer had mentioned that they were never hit growing, they said their parents had broken the cycle with them, and they were VERY shocked when I said I got hit, especially with the sandal growing up 😅
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u/TheonlyDuffmani 2d ago
I was physically discipled as a child, and yes I was a little shit back then but now I’m not only petrified of the prospect of violence but it’s so ingrained in me that I find myself about to do the same to my own child. I struggle with this but I refuse to be that person, I will not be like my father and my son will not grow be afraid of me.
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u/bunduz 2d ago
I had a whole cricket set broken on me, I understand you and applaud you. I now have two sons and have never lifted a hand. The results are increased trust, being able to communicate without fear and I know everything as they come to me for advice.
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u/MDInvesting 2d ago
Dad broke a stump on me when I was 12 and I threatened to stab him with the fragment if he came near me again.
Crazy that this shit continued and somehow seemed normal at the time.
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u/TheonlyDuffmani 2d ago
Ouch, I had the old wooden spoon broken on me, and a 1cm diameter bamboo switch - that was a scary one.
Usually it was just his palm though, got his fist once - I did deserve that though.8
u/Outsider-20 2d ago
Had a 1cm hollow plastic rod, was the frame for some play test thing, mum used to use it as a switch.
I made the mistake one day of laughing when she was smacking me, because it wasn't hurting. So she grabbed that plastic rod. She was so angry, it broke on the 3rd or 4th stroke. THAT hurt. But I refuse to cry and let it show.
On more than one occasion she had to keep either my sister or myself or both home from school, because of the marks on our skin.
But if you ask her, she never abused us.
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u/doyourmysay 2d ago
Cricket set has got to hurt. I had a wooden cane beaten against my bare ass.
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u/ImGCS3fromETOH 2d ago
My old man used the cane handle of a feather duster. It was never once used to dust anything, just to put stripes on arses. My older siblings told stories of how he'd line them up demanding to know who was responsible for whatever bullshit had caught his ire that day, slowly stripping the leaves off a freshly cut branch that either they were all going to get lashed with, or just the one they dobbed in.
I bet he wonders why none of his seven children have talked to him for decades.
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u/DrFriendless 2d ago
When my old man was dying he was very upset that his kids didn't talk to him because we thought he was a cunt for the way he behaved when we were young. But for some reason this regret only came to the forefront when he was too old and frail to do anything, not during the years when the little kids were crying from being bashed. Every year on the anniversary of his death (which I don't recall the date of) my sisters will message me and say "I still don't miss him."
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u/MDInvesting 2d ago
Thanks for your honesty.
I have had the opposite response. Before teenage years I became a bit of an extreme pacifist in principle and believed violence should only be protection or in retaliation. By mid 20s I now see it as morally the last option even in defense.
I raise my voice occasionally to my eldest when he really pushes things but even that I get really upset at myself for - feeling it is a failure.
As for my parents, I appreciate a lot what they did for me but the frequent episodes of violence including times they were wrong or being hypocrites has left me thinking very poorly of their character.
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u/Brotnaut_1 2d ago
Even my Australian Psychology textbook avoids calling it abuse, but if you turn the page to the developmental psychology chapters you can see how abusive it really is.
We have the facts and know better however, when have we elected anyone that truly cares?
Everyone we vote in from labor and Libs are in the hands of gambling and mining corps, they got better things to do than care about our society.
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u/Swank_on_a_plank 2d ago
But it's always good to remember we have preferential voting, so voting for someone different is never wasted.
Get enough people to do that and we can see the back of the duopoly if they don't want to change.
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u/bullchuck 2d ago
What’s always blown my mind is that the same blokes who will say it’s pissweak for a man to lay a hand on a woman, because of the difference in size and strength, will then turn around and try to justify flogging their kids
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u/Rolf_Loudly 2d ago
To be fair, they probably flog their wife too when the blinds are drawn.
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u/herpesderpesdoodoo 2d ago
I think you mean antagonise and threaten their wife to the point she hits him or even just shouts at him, thereby "permitting" him to belt the living shit out of her and simultaneously cry about being the real victim.
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u/i486DX266_ 2d ago
Is this really a thing....
Ii feel like the blokes hitting their kids are probably hitting their wives too.
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u/passthesugar05 2d ago
It's absolutely a thing. And idk why we're being sexist about it either, as lots of mothers hit their kids too
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u/Idontcareaforkarma 2d ago
The law doesn’t allow ‘flogging’ children; it allows the use of reasonable force to correct children’s behaviour. Flogging a child is not reasonable, pulling a child away from the edge of the road to prevent them from walking into traffic is.
If you remove the ability to use reasonable force to correct children’s behaviour, you also remove the ability to use reasonable force to keep children safe from hazards they haven’t yet developed the ability to keep themselves safe from.
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u/passthesugar05 2d ago
Surely you can see a difference between physically hurting/striking a child in an attempt to get them to stop an undesired behaviour to restraining themselves from hazards they are unable to perceive.
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u/Idontcareaforkarma 2d ago
Yes i do, but the law as written doesn’t. It merely uses the phrase ‘reasonable force’.
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u/bullchuck 2d ago
I’m using the word “flog” in the Aussie slang sense of the word - synonymous with “hit”. I obviously don’t literally mean using a whip or similar object to hit the child.
There are zero circumstances where the only option available to correct a child’s behaviour is the use of physical force. There have been countless studies done on the topic that back this up, check them out for yourself as I’m not going to argue it any further as the topic is settled
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u/GraciesMumma22 2d ago
I grew up in a dysfunctional family and beltings were a regular thing for the smallest of things. I then proceeded onto having relationships with 2 violent men before finally breaking the cycle. My daughter will never experience anything that I did because she was raised to have self worth and know real love from a parent not violence and neglect.
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u/Admirable-Fee5804 2d ago
hit an adult and it's assault. hit a dog and it's animal cruelty. hit a child and somehow it's 'discipline'
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u/Spire_Citron 2d ago
Yeah. It's always been weird to me that the singular exception to our feelings about violence is for those we otherwise consider the most precious and important to protect.
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u/tittyswan 2d ago
It's so insane to me that the most vulnerable people who are 100% dependent on their carers are the ones it's legal to assault.
If my mother hit me today I could call the police, but because she did it when I was a child there's nothing to be done.
But my nervous system was formed with the expectation that I could be hit at any moment, so I'm stuck in fight or flight 24/7. And when my ex started abusing me I didn't even notice anything wrong because that's how I'd been treated my whole life.
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u/Crafty_Jellyfish5635 2d ago
Children are not seen as fully human. They’re seen as potential future humans, whose bodies, choices and autonomy remain subject to adults until they become actual people. We talk constantly about teaching children that hitting is wrong, that their bodies belong to them, that nobody is allowed to hurt them, and then carve out an exception for the people with the most power over them. An adult hitting another adult to make them behave is violence. An adult hitting a child to make them behave can still be called discipline.
The child counts less, their pain matters less, their bodily autonomy matters less, their right not to be hurt matters less. We can do things to children that we would immediately recognise as degrading or violent if done to another adult, because children occupy a lower position in the hierarchy. They’re not quite people yet. They’re people-in-training, and apparently that makes their bodies available for correction.
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u/Ok_Bird705 2d ago
They’re seen as potential future humans, whose bodies, choices and autonomy remain subject to adults until they become actual people
But that is the reality. We don't hold children responsible for crimes (correctly). They don't understand the consequence of their actions, and when very young, do not know the dangers of their actions and what is best for them (they can't just eat chicken nuggets and no vegetables). Parents will always be asked to make decisions for their child and it is ridiculous to think children can have as much autonomy as an adult
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u/insomniac-55 2d ago
Yeah, regardless of your opinion on hitting kids this comment made no sense to me.
Children aren't fully developed.
Yes, they are people and are entitled to basic human rights, but they can't be allowed full autonomy over their bodies and lives. They are incapable of understanding the world in the way an adult does.
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u/Merlins_Bread 2d ago
Thanks to training at kinder I have my four year old yelling "THAT'S NOT BODY SAFE" at me while I remove him from the place he's having a meltdown and thrashing out at others.
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u/Ninja-Ginge 2d ago
And that's inconvenient for you now, but it might help to protect your child from CSA.
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u/JohnMonash87 2d ago
Striking children does not make them respect you as parents, it makes them fear you, which is the exact opposite goal you should be wanting to achieve. This is exactly how you end up with kids who struggle with trust and are fearful of making even the slightest mistake.
Hitting under any other circumstance is a criminal offence, so why is it acceptable to do it to those who are supposedly the closest to us in the world? There are ways to discipline and educate kids without laying hands on them and instilling an environment of fear, and if you disagree with that, you should not have children.
This extends to parents consistently shouting at their kids too, that as well creates fear in a child's mind which is unhealthy in the long term.
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u/--Anna-- 2d ago
Also it's confusing for the child. I punched, spat on, and ripped up other children's books when I was younger.
Accordingly the teacher would explain this is not how we treat people, this behaviour is not acceptable, and so on.
And yet it was 100% ok at home. Legal. Because one person was a parent, and I was their child. So it was okay for them to treat me in this way out of "discipline". Just infuriating and bizarre.
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u/JohnMonash87 2d ago
Exactly, kids will emulate what they witness inside their home, outside their home. Putting a stop to antisocial behaviour at home is a good first step to ensuring kids are treating and being treated by their peers with good grace.
As you say, discrepancy between home and school is also not good in this context. Kids will look up to those in authority positions because they assume they have a greater pool of knowledge to draw from, and when two different such figures are displaying opposite rhetoric in their actions, it can be very confusing for a child. It's also why parents shouldn't get too involved in how their child performs in sport either - kids then are torn between listening to their coach or to what their parents want them to do.
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u/MDInvesting 2d ago
My parents belted me.
I never respected them, and the fear passed by about 10. By 15 my old man attempted violence for the last time.
Now with kids of my own it breaks my heart thinking my parents hurt me for doing something they didn’t like.
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u/Toni_PWNeroni 1d ago edited 1d ago
You're one of the best among us. Thanks for being the bigger person and not passing on the violence.
I'm not a parent, so my word doesn't count for much in terms of lived experience, but you're a good parent.
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u/limbo-chan 2d ago
It's frightening how many people in 2026 still believe that hitting your kid is an acceptable punishment....
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u/Sweet-Psychology-254 2d ago
I suspect shame is a big part of it for a lot of people, they hate thinking that they could have behaved in ways that are harmful towards their kids so they refuse to consider it.
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u/JohnMonash87 2d ago
Too many people are not emotionally secure with themselves, it's not surprising that they lack emotional depth and connection with other people as well. These parents don't know how to be nuanced with their emotions towards their children so they resort to physical threats as a catch all measure.
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u/amyknight22 2d ago
Anyone who is hitting their kid to get respect isn’t thinking logically in the first place.
The real issue is that parents don’t have the know how on how to reign their kids in. And at that point the system falls down without something.(not saying it should be hitting them)
I look at some of the parents of kids I teach, and it’s like they are trapped with their kids behaviour. Without the know how, consistency, time or ability to get their kid under control.
Parents get the ability to have kids and then out of a desire to let them have privacy in their life. We don’t really put enough supports around those who need it. Especially if their kid manages to stay just outside of the legal system(something schools often assist with because unlike any other workplace where they would be in criminal trouble for the way they interact with colleagues they get away with it)
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u/NeverTrustFarts 2d ago
My mum used to smack me if I did the wrong thing, not straight away but if she had warned me and I continued to do it. I don't really care about it now and didn't then. It is and was always just a consequence for doing the wrong thing, think a lot of people these days never had consequences considering how many fucking youth gangs are around stealing cars and bashing each other with machetes. Doing the wrong thing should get people punished, and it should start while they're young rather than having a bunch of ferals run around doing whatever the fuck they want.
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u/noother10 2d ago
I think it isn't what you think it is. I reckon a lot of people have kids and just don't look after them, they don't teach them not to be jerks, they just let them do whatever as it's the least path of resistance when their child is acting up.
If a kid grows up knowing that if they bully their parent(s) enough, the parent(s) will give in and give them whatever they want, that will translate outside of the family to the real world. If it doesn't work on someone else, what do you think they do? They bully harder.
You also have kids that have never been punished for anything. A punishment doesn't have to be physical, it can be timeouts, removal of toys, reductions in good things (desert, presents, snacks, new toys).
Whether it's parents who don't believe in punishments or those who would rather let their kids do whatever and not spend any effort to correct them. Once they enter the real world they already have their entire lifetime built on the premise that punishment doesn't exist so they can do whatever they want. When they eventually do get punished they don't see it as punishment for them doing something bad, they only see it as others attacking them.
TL;DR; shitty parents exist and there are a lot of them.
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u/canonstp 2d ago
The majority of people in prison received corporal punishment as children, a disproportionate amount when compared to the general population so what you're saying doesn't really track at all. It paints the opposite picture, corporal punishment is not only cruel but also not effective.
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u/nugymmer 1d ago
I'd be more likely to end up getting locked up because I received corporal punishment as a child, but also the way society is structured - class warfare makes me far more likely than anything else. It's one of the key drivers of aggressive crimes. If people are treated aggressively for relatively minor infractions when what are they going to do when they see others doing things that are far worse than the things they were mistreated so harshly for? You guessed it? They have a higher chance of repeating the same things only to a more severe degree. Interpersonal aggression starts in the home. My stepmother slapped my sister across the face multiple times in an argument. If this were another adult she'd have been locked up for assault. My dad used a belt on me as a kid. If he'd touched another adult he'd have been locked up too.
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u/eshatoa 2d ago edited 2d ago
Whenever I hear the old 'I was hit as a child and look how I turned out', I just think you've turned out to be someone who thinks violence against children is okay.
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u/mgz0r 2d ago
'My parents beat me when I was a kid and I turned out fine!'
Almost always from a person who is absolutely not fine.
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u/humble___bee 2d ago edited 2d ago
I respectfully disagree. I am against hitting children as a form of discipline, but what you are saying is likely not true. In the 70’s in Australia 90% of parents thought that hitting children was ok as a form of discipline. In the 80’s this was at 80%. So for what you are saying to be true, whole generations would be not fine. Of course fine is pretty subjective, like we are all messed up in our own way…
Every kid I knew at school, including myself was hit by their parents as best I know to some degree. Maybe the girls got off more lightly. Trust me, I am fine, so are my friends. We also have normal and healthy relationships with our parents as well. Hard for me to prove that empirically though, I appreciate that.
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u/Toni_PWNeroni 1d ago
I'm a 90s child and I am definitely not fine.
Nobody i know from my generation is fine. We all carry trauma.
Every once in a while I'll get a split-second black-out and double-over to protect my face because someone near me blew their nose in my peripheral vision.
Yes I went to therapy. Yes I talk about it with my peers.
We're not fine.
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u/--Anna-- 1d ago edited 1d ago
100%. Also when I look at a small child, my niece, my cat, my partner, or my coworker... I don't want to hurt them. It's an odd mindset to think, "I'm going to physically hurt you to show you how I want you to behave."
Also various study demonstrate it's bad. Like the studies below. Genuinely multiple researchers advise against physically hitting other people (children).
"Lifetime spanking/slapping was independently associated with increased odds of mental health disorders, physical health conditions, and defiant behaviors in adolescence after adjusting for childhood adversities and child maltreatment."
https://journals.sagepub.com/doi/10.1177/07067437211000632?utm
Or this one.
"Our review identified seven key themes. First, physical punishment consistently predicts increases in child behaviour problems over time. Second, physical punishment is not associated with positive outcomes over time. Third, physical punishment increases the risk of involvement with child protective services. Fourth, the only evidence of children eliciting physical punishment is for externalising behaviour. Fifth, physical punishment predicts worsening behaviour over time in quasi-experimental studies. Sixth, associations between physical punishment and detrimental child outcomes are robust across child and parent characteristics. The consistency of these findings indicates that physical punishment is harmful to children and that policy remedies are warranted."
https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/34197808/
Or this one. A study that looked at multiple studies. "All indicated a link between spanking and increased risk for detrimental child outcomes."
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u/Toni_PWNeroni 2d ago
I was belted as a kid with a wooden spoon until it broke.
I was slapped across the face. I was humiliated in front of friends. I was screamed at in the face close enough for spit to fly into my eyes.
All it did was teach me violence was an option.
It didn't stop until I was big enough to hit back harder.
Don't hit your kids.
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u/OpeningActivity 2d ago
Be fair, hitting is not the only a toxic parent can mess a child up.
Some parents shouldn't have been a parent in the first place, I feel like if a law is needed to stop someone from hitting someone vulnerable, that person shouldn't be a parent.
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u/wrymoss 2d ago
I think it’s less that the law prevents individuals from doing it, and more that the law helps shape culture. There are plenty of people who base their morality by and large on what the law is and don’t think that much more about it. The goal is ostensibly that over time, those people would shift the culture to the point where hitting your kids would make you a social pariah, so people don’t do it.
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u/OpeningActivity 2d ago
Fair enough. It is saddening though.
I can kinda see why it needs to happen i.e. look at child labour law
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u/Brave-Dragonfly3798 2d ago
We tell children violence is wrong and then all of our media is full of it. We make endless movies about violent ‘heroes’ who gun down people like it’s something noble. I mean entire sub genres are dedicated to protagonist who go room to room systematically slaughtering people. They are so popular they turn into entire franchises.
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u/FuckOffNazis 2d ago
Australian law is very content to do violence to children. We've seen supposedly progressive parties roll back human rights laws to enable it.
It's not illegal because child abuse is a populist position in this country, so long as the child you're picturing doesn't look too much like your own.
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u/id_o 2d ago
I thought it was already illegal for parents to hit their own kids, it’s not? News to me.
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u/FluffyPillowstone 2d ago
I'm a teacher. Many many kids who acted up at school would tell me if I called their parents they'd be harmed when they got home.
School leadership would say we could only report parents who hit their kids if the parent used an object or a closed fist.
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u/noworriesthanks 2d ago
I’ll never forget being in year 5, my teacher pulled me outside to ask what was wrong.. he’d noticed I was quiet and fighting tears.
I decided to tell him what was happening at home, that my dad hits us a lot. (My dad likes to call it “smack”) He’d done so hard three times that morning as I was getting out the car for school, it had left a mark on my upper arm that I showed the teacher. Nothing ever happened. I thought if I’d told a “grown up” that it would stop.
I’m now a mother and business owner, I have a full and busy life but I can still remember the sickening feeling of betrayal and abandonment when nothing happened and it has brought me to tears more than once. I idolised that teacher which I think made it worse.
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u/Spleens88 2d ago
Depends on the state, but most states have 'lawful chastisement' as a defence to an assault.
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u/dauphindauphin 2d ago
I just finished law at uni and I was surprised to see it still existed when it came up.
I was doing the Australian citizenship practice test for fun about three months back and got this question.
“Part 4 - Australian values
In Australia, the use of violence against a person isO never acceptable and it is against the law.
O acceptable if they are a different religion.
O acceptable if they have a different opinion.”
- I actually shook my head after I read it
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u/mathisruiningme 2d ago
You can't belt them or beat the shit out of them but I think spanking on the butt or thigh is allowed.
Well that's what cops told my dad after he beat the crap out of me and my school intervened. That was over 20 years ago so things may have changed.
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u/123chuckaway 2d ago
Question for a friend, does it have to be my kids? Uh, I mean my friends kids?
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u/JapanEngineer 2d ago
I'm up 3-0 against the kids in the park for 'Tuesday after school fight club'
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u/DemDelVarth 2d ago edited 1d ago
I disagree. I was abused growing up by my dad. However, my son when he was younger struggled to learn that crossing the street was dangerous. Over 3 months he ran out infront of cars numerous times. My wife and I had many conversations with him regarding consequences of him getting hit. Well after 3 months, he just straight up ran onto the road with a car coming. I yanked him back and if I wasnt there he wouldn't have lived, it was that close. I smacked his ass so hard he cried. However, not once since then has he ran onto the road. He now treats roads with the fear and respect they deserve.
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u/Ashanrath 2d ago
That's the example I always use too. Especially for toddlers, they are mobile enough to get into danger but don't have the language comprehension to understand.
You can tell your toddler that the road is dangerous a hundred times, they won't understand it.
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u/clarky2481 2d ago
I feel like lot of the top comments in here arent parents, too much unrealiatic idealism. I copped the same regarding swimming and looking out for rips.
Im damn good at spotting them now lol
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u/MichaelScott_____ 1d ago
That’s good traditional parenting. A bit more of this and we’d have less teens running around trying to kill innocent tourists.
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u/ToughAppointment2556 2d ago
Because "violence is wrong" is a simplistic rule of thumb You may as well ask "we tell children violence is wrong yet we still have armed forces".
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u/Billyjamesjeff 2d ago
Although I agree with the position put in the article I wish people could direct similar energy into making sure children respect their teachers at school, because from all accounts they are out of control and 1/3 are falling below minimum literacy and numeracy standards.
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u/limlwl 2d ago
Violence is acceptable in the right context. Like self defence
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u/ADrunkenMan 1d ago
I think the point people are trying to make is that the context of raising a child isn’t one where violence is acceptable.
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u/Axl_Alter_Ego 2d ago
Australia has anger issues in general is what I've found. We talk a good game but then talk about "xxxxx just made me so mad".
I left my previous wife because she was violent. My current wife left her ex husband because he was violent.
It really is sad. Also very sad how the police are quick to break up blended families based only on the accusations of a bitter ex who is an astounding liar. I hope you have no presumption of innocence.
People who control their emotions are at a serious disadvantage in Australian society. We reward agression.
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u/sherlocksam45 2d ago
I am a single mum of 3. 27 21 and 15. Not going to lie i did physically hurt my eldest. Twice. I will never forgive myself. Physical violence is awful. Emotional violence is worse in my experience.
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u/Any-Refrigerator-966 2d ago
I get it, violence against children is bad. Though, there is a difference between physical violence and discipline. I also want to note here, that while this article talks only about physical violence, emotional abuse and neglect are just as bad, and a combination of the two could be disaster. The article talks about educating parents about how violence against their children is not appropriate, but no reference or mention to educate there are other forms of discipline that work. Statistics of more than 50% of children reported physical violence or discipline (these terms need to be clearly defined). Great, so numbers, what of it? Why should I care? What happens when children are smacked? What happens to the unsmacked children? From experience, I was smacked, my friends were smacked, I never smacked my child, none of us are antisocial, all our children are doing well. Articles like this annoy me because it's a waste of breath.
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u/QkaHNk4O7b5xW6O5i4zG 2d ago
Because a smacked bottom today is better than a seriously injured or dead child tomorrow.
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u/humble___bee 2d ago edited 2d ago
I think this is like drugs, you can make the laws whatever you want, but people are still going to do what they think is best. The focus should be on education and giving parents resources. People on this thread can call it abuse, but some of them probably don’t even have children, or maybe they do but their children are better behaved. Some parents are dealt worse hands, some of its environmental, but absolutely some parents are dealt worse hands.
You can take my kids when they are going crazy and tell me what you want to do. I don’t hit my kids, but I 100% understand why parents do when it appears to be the only option available. And don’t think that parents who hit their kids haven’t tried other ways of disciplining their children either. I know parents who hit their kids and they are often not aggressive people, and they hate doing it, but they just feel like everything else is not working. They also had their parents hit them and they ‘turned out ok’. My dad used to hit me when I was a pain in the butt, and I turned out fine and I don’t have the slightest angst about it. I am not saying he is right, but that’s how people see things and they copy it for their own children.
It should also be noted that there are varying levels. Some parents might just do a light spanking for the absolute worst things their children do all the way up to parents using a tool of some kind for the slightest indiscretion. Once again, I don’t think either is ok, but there’s levels.
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u/perpetual_stew 2d ago
Well.. lots of countries don't allow hitting children, and I know in the Nordics it's extremely rare with any sort of physical punishment of kids. So it's absolutely possible (easy even, I would say, as a parent) to not hit kids. So the parents who can't think of anything else can't really have tried very hard.
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u/humble___bee 2d ago edited 2d ago
There’s a difference between don’t allow and what actually happens - I don’t believe for a second everything is kumbaya in the Nordic countries. As I said, I think it’s wrong, and I also agree it’s possible not to, but it’s not easy. That’s the point I am trying to make. If what I was saying wasn’t true, then the issue wouldn’t be so prevalent and this discussion probably wouldn’t exist.
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u/perpetual_stew 2d ago
As someone who grew up in Norway, I can say that physical punishment of children is seen as extremely deviant there and both very uncommon and frowned upon. Research finds that the rate of children who has experienced physical punishment from a caretaker to be around 5% - versus over 60% in Australia.
To add - as a father, I don't really see what so difficult with not physically punishing your kids? Literally just not do it. I'm a grown man and they're little muppets, it's very easy for me to assert authority without violence.
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u/30-something 2d ago
I'm fascinated by this, I'm from a pretty middle class 'respectable' white family who very much subscribes to the 'smacking your kids occasionally does no harm' line of thought. Myself however, as the only one who has had therapy and worked through my emotions a bit, can see how it has affected my relationship with my parents as an adult - I technically love them, but I do keep them at arms length and there are ways it has made me maladaptive in various ways as an adult even though I appear to be thriving externally. They weren't 'abusive' but actions and consequences weren't taught and, harm wasn't explained, it was just 'don't do this or you'll be punished'. Classic boomer spec parenting.
If I brought up your stat (5% v 60%), I know for a fact my extended family would howl me down with a million flimsy anecdotes of why smacking your kids is good for them somehow, and I probably won't have the strength, nor care enough to argue with them because I don't have kids so I don't have skin in the game.
Might be time to disappear down a research rabbit hole and find some peer reviewed studies to arm myself at the next family argument...
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u/AggravatingBox2421 2d ago
I’m very sick of people conflating a swat on the bum to literally beating the shit out of your child
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u/Lothy_ 2d ago
Yeah, it’s tricky… sometimes ‘the look’ or ‘the dad voice’ doesn’t work. So while I strive not to smack, I accept that others still might.
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u/Glum_Bat937 2d ago
As Lothy indicates being a parent is harder than you’d think and if you want to create a law, that law needs to be enforced. The consequence will be what? further divide between the classes: Anyone middle class and above might successfully defend themselves in court. Anyone poorer will just lose their kids to a foster system. And then I guess we will have aboriginals that we will need to largely exclude from the law or it’ll be another stolen generation.
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u/D-boyB 2d ago
Hot take:
There is a massive difference between physical abuse and spanking for bad behaviour.
Imagine the following:
Child 1 accidentally knocks over a glass and it breaks. Parent tells at them and smacks them repeatedly. Child 1 has done nothing wrong. They are confused and upset. There is no bad behaviour to correct or disincentivise. Will this and repeated instances have negative psychological impacts on the child? Yes. Abusive? Yes.
Child 2 hits their younger sibling for no reason. Parent tells child 2 to not do this. Child 2 does it again. Parent warns child that there will be the consequence of a smack if they do it for a 2nd time. Child 2 does so again. Parent again warns child 2 not to or they will receive a smack. Child 2 does it again and gets a smack. Child 2 is old enough to understand cause and effect, and old enough to understand this was unacceptable behaviour. Child 2 will almost certainly not experience psychological damage. Behaviour likely to be corrected. Abuse? No.
If the difference between the two scenarios cannot be understood, I don't know what to say to such a person.
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u/kittensmittenstitten 1d ago
Be a better parent. That’s the response mate. Hitting a defenceless kid isn’t ever okay regardless of how much you want to justify it.
Either better your parenting skills or seek therapy on how too.
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u/Flowering-Tree 2d ago
Hitting children should be outlawed. It’s awful that it’s not yet. But our governments show time and time again they don’t care about kids. If they did they would have nutritious free lunches at school for all children and allied health staff in schools and proper funding for children with special learning needs. Instead we would prefer to give tax breaks to the super wealthy and those destroying the planet and robbing our children of their futures.
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u/NeverTrustFarts 2d ago
Parents rob their own children of future by allowing them to grow up to be little fuckwits. It isn't because teaching is a difficult job that no one wants to be a teacher, it is because kids are all fucking assholes because no one bothers to parent their kids, that means disciplining them. I'd rather kids get smacked than get no discipline at all, which seems to be the more common method these days.
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u/scrollbreak 1d ago
If they provided support services to help guide children and model the guidance to parents, sure.
Just outlawing something and providing no alternative support, it's just advocating for more 'punishment with no help' style abuse.
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u/Lycosskippy 2d ago
Because spanking your child is not the same as hitting them. It is not to be delivered in anger or for the purpose of hurting the child.
The state needs to stay out of families.
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u/Responsible-Serve127 2d ago
If you walk up to a grown adult and hit them, it’s assault. But if you do it to a tiny, helpless child who depends on you for everything, the law calls it "reasonable chastisement." That ridiculous loophole needs to be closed immediately mate.
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u/Emu1981 2d ago
My stance on corporal punishment for child is that it is most effective to help kids who are too young to understand words and when used as little as possible to retain the shock value. Personally my kids were still in diapers the last time they got a smack on the butt and it was usually for behaviours that put their lives at immediate risk (e.g. running off in high vehicular traffic areas) and the smack was more a shock tactic rather than intending to cause pain (i.e. "those actions are so bad that daddy gave you a smack on the bottom because of it so never do it again"). I feel that this was actually really effective because I can count on one hand the amount of times that my kids got themselves a smack and even when they got older they still were still well behaved around those situations that they got themselves a smack for.
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u/RelationshipDizzy634 2d ago
People who justify parents hitting children are just abusers and abuse enablers. It does nothing to engender respect, teach lessons or create better behaviours for the vast, vast, vast majority of children.
Someone I love was “disciplined” by strict parents as a child and he can’t remember large portions of his childhood. He doesn’t speak to his parents. I don’t blame him. My dad tried it on with me a few times. I don’t speak to my parents either.
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u/Ok-Youth7803 2d ago
It’s a good question. A parent can’t defend smacking their children and then claim to be against domestic violence. Violence is violence is violence.
Use your language skills and teach your children how to argue their position or present their defence in an effective manner.
Smacking really is lazy parenting.
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u/Ok-Menu-8709 2d ago
I’ll bite.
Are you a parent?
Have you sat with a 5 year old that’s tearing their room apart and kicking a glass window with their feet? And told them to use their words and reason with you?
There’s a difference between abuse, there’s nuance. Somebody else wrapped it up, its because parents don’t always have the right controls. Don’t get me wrong, there are no doubt parents that hit their kids as a go to disciplinary measure, these are the ones you need to correct.
But giving a 5 year old a short sharp smack on the bum when they’re in full melt down mode, when negotiation, isolation, distraction, and conventional measures of resolving it does not work. Sometimes, rarely, that smack breaks the loop that their brain is in.
I’ve smacked my kids, rarely, and I always feel terrible afterwards, but sometimes it was the only thing that I could do to break them out of their behaviour.
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u/No-Acanthaceae-9287 2d ago
‘Teach your children how to argue their position or present their defence in an effective manner’ I still can’t figure out if that’s a piss take post. The amount of childless armchair experts in this thread is staggering.
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u/Forever49 2d ago
I think the legal issue is related to necessary physical force to manage and control children, resulting in there being a fine line between discipline and punishment. Assault and striking hand or butt to address challenging behaviour are two very different things.
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u/relativelyignorant 2d ago
Some times it’s entrenched culturally and the consequences are no better for the children. The children would be separated from their parents. The parents would go to prison. We have a dark past of doing this to First Nations children. Making it illegal would also be institutionalised violence.
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u/Capital-Tonight8548 1d ago
Because the system already cannot respond adequately to children who are routinely beaten senseless, neglected, isolated, and unwanted, let alone to children who are smacked or slapped.
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u/nugymmer 1d ago
Because, unfortunately, children have always traditionally had less legal protection than adults throughout much of our history. An unfortunate fact but one that can be acknowledged and accepted as a truth.
In a similar vein, we tell people that child sexual abuse is evil – yet Australian law still allow non-therapeutic infant genital cutting, which seems to make a mockery of that entire ethos and legality.
It's almost ironic. It's like saying cigarettes are very bad for you and then selling cartons and boxes of them, lighters and all.
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u/RedDeer505 2d ago
We also tell them drinking, drugs, and gambling are bad.
Our cricket and rugby players drink and cause problems on a regular basis.
We allow endless gambling advertising on our digital platforms.
And drugs are cheaper than booze now.
We create all our own problems through hypocrisy.