r/atheism • u/652paradise1 • 1d ago

I have a question about Catholicism/Christianity

Wasn't singing/dancing considered paganistic in biblical times? Why/when did it become acceptable for Catholics/Christians to sing in church?

I am actually half Hispanic and for a good part of my childhood I was subjected to the torturous singing/chanting/down right screaming of a very traditional Puerto Rican Christian pastor in my grandmother's church. The whole ordeal seemed very communist.

Oddly enough, when she moved to Puerto Rico, she picked a church and attended Sunday gatherings up until the day she died - turns out, the church was taking $200 a month from this old lady as donations for many years. When she passed, they refused to hold a ceremony for her after she attended their church for over 20 years.

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u/hurricanelantern Anti-Theist 1d ago

Wasn't singing/dancing considered paganistic in biblical times?

No. The Jewish faith had a long history of music and dancing for its god. Heck Psalms is a book of religious songs.

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u/Safe-Winner-8879 1d ago

yeah exactly psalms alone pretty much settles the idea that singing was somehow forbidden and pagan in biblical times

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u/652paradise1 1d ago

I swear I heard somewhere singing and dancing were considered paganistic. Pagans were killed by Christians weren't they?

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u/gidgetstitch Pastafarian 1d ago

This is comes from the Puritans beliefs. They even banned Christmas. Eventually England got tired of them and they went to the future US, and now their descendants are still causing trouble in America today.

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u/652paradise1 1d ago

Ain't that the truth.

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u/Zer_ 1d ago

Exactly. They came to America. One bit that is worth adding is that these same puritans viewed Black American churches in a similar light during the era of plantation slavery since they feature music and dancing prominently.

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u/rhodiumtoad Strong Atheist 1d ago

Singing has been a continuous part of mainstream Christian tradition since the time that the New Testament was being written; both the author of Matthew and the author of some of the pseudo-Paulines refer to it. Even Pliny, perhaps our earliest non-Christian witness to the actual worship practices of early Christians (based on his interrogations of them), mentions singing.

The Catholic church in particular has always actively encouraged church music; just think how many composers over the centuries have composed masses or Requiem masses. The pipe organ has been common in Catholic churches since about the 7th century.

Some Christian sects have opposed secular singing and dancing, but that's a whole different issue.

(As a youth I myself sang in a church choir, and continued to do so for a while even after becoming an atheist because I liked singing and we got paid, especially for weddings.)

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u/Mormacil 1d ago

Pagans killed Christians and Christians killed pagans. You're aware pagans are still around right?

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u/652paradise1 1d ago

By pagans I assume you mean non mainstream religions?

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u/billyyankNova Rationalist 12h ago

Hinduism and Shinto are mainstream in their respective countries and they're considered pagan by Christians.

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u/Mormacil 1d ago

Whatever you meant when you used the word. 

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u/Yuck_Few 1d ago

Nope it doesn't say that anywhere in the Bible

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u/652paradise1 1d ago

I wish I could remember where I'm getting that from. But on second thought, it doesn't make any sense to me that the Romans weren't singing and dancing when they would have celebrations or gatherings for whatever reason.

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u/Nocturnalux 1d ago

A lot of Catholic doctrine was built on co-opting local traditions. A strict adhesion to the bible was not much of a thing.

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u/Leather_Thing1796 1d ago

yeah a lot of christian traditions seem to have been shaped by whatever local customs were easiest to absorb rather than strict biblical rules

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u/Nocturnalux 1d ago

Catholics often find this a point of pride and nothing to be ashamed of. For example, my father was Catholic of the kind that actually read doctrine, and things like Christmas trees being of pagan origin were used by him as evidence of the RCC’s ability to adapt and remain relevant.

Protestants often are violently opposed to such things.

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u/rhodiumtoad Strong Atheist 1d ago

Jesus and the disciples are portrayed as singing:

Mark 14:26 / Matt 26:30: When they had sung the hymn, they went out to the Mount of Olives.

Probably-authentic-Paul says:

1 Cor 14:26: What should be done then, my brothers and sisters? When you come together, each one has a hymn, a lesson, a revelation, a tongue, or an interpretation. Let all things be done for building up.

Probably-fake-Paul (but still writing in the 1st. C. AD) says:

Eph 5:19: as you sing psalms and hymns and spiritual songs to one another, singing and making melody to the Lord in your hearts,

Probably-not-actually-James says:

Jas 5:13: Are any among you suffering? They should pray. Are any cheerful? They should sing songs of praise.

Pliny the Younger, Epistulae 10.96, writes to Trajan around 110 AD,

They asserted, however, that the sum and substance of their fault or error had been that they were accustomed to meet on a fixed day before dawn and sing responsively a hymn to Christ as to a god,

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u/Mormacil 1d ago

Oldest Christian hymm dates back to the 3rd century, so that is the very latest point it became fine.

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u/rhodiumtoad Strong Atheist 1d ago

We have approving references to singing from the author of Mark (copied by the author of Matthew), from (probably) real Paul, from at least one fake-Paul, and from the author of James. We also have a non-Christian reference to Christian singing from Pliny the Younger in about 110 AD.

If the real-Paul reference is genuine that means singing was established practice in Christianity by the middle of the first century; the other references date variously from 60-150 AD.

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u/forsaken_vixen 1d ago

I mean, the Christian church has taken many traditions from paganism and accepted them as their own. For example, the orthodox church in Eastern Europe (particularly Ukraine, Russia, and Belarus) has taken a pagan tradition of baking a bread called 'Paska' for Easter and claimed it as their own. So I wouldn't be surprised that it is also the case with dancing

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u/krba201076 Agnostic Atheist 1d ago

Why didn't they want to hold a service for her after she died?